Today marks the 18th anniversary of the Dilli Massacre.

This event marked both a highpoint and lowpoint for the people of East Timor seeking independence after the 1975 invasion by Indonesia. Australia Portugal along with a number of other nations ramped up diplomatic pressure after this event, which happly ended with East Timor becoming once again an independent nation in 2002

Two prominent members of the East Timor independence movement won the Noble peace prize in 1996, for their efforts to save their people. In 1999 a UN sponsored invasion of the Island led by forces from Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom and some very tactile logistical support from the US began the process of independence

It is estimated some 100,000 people lost their lives during the period of conflict......An horrific toll for an place both so small, and so peaceful.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dili_Massacre

Worthy of a Bump, WfO.

Cheers.

What is the situation like today, there?

Wicked Good wrote:

Worthy of a Bump, WfO. Cheers. What is the situation like today, there?

Extremely good actually. There was a change in the Indonesian government which did take a lot pressure off the new nation, East Timor also has control of a huge oil reserve called the Timor Gap, which means money wont be a major issue for the developement of the country

Wizard From Oz wrote:

Today marks the 18th anniversary of the Dilli Massacre. This event marked both a highpoint and lowpoint for the people of East Timor seeking independence after the 1975 invasion by Indonesia. Australia Portugal along with a number of other nations ramped up diplomatic pressure after this event, which happly ended with East Timor becoming once again an independent nation in 2002 Two prominent members of the East Timor independence movement won the Noble peace prize in 1996, for their efforts to save their people. In 1999 a UN sponsored invasion of the Island led by forces from Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom and some very tactile logistical support from the US began the process of independence It is estimated some 100,000 people lost their lives during the period of conflict......An horrific toll for an place both so small, and so peaceful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dili_Massacre

I'm not as up-to-date on 'Timor as I'd like to be, but as I understand it Australia was actually complicit in the massacres (some would say genocide), and so was Britain and the United States. In fact, of all the horrendous conflicts in recent memory, East Timor is perhaps the most telling and vociferous example of 20th century imperialism, supported and condoned from afar.

It has been revealed, for example, that the dictator's special forces were trained by the British SAS, that Australia made a killing (literally) extracting oil from seabeds off the country's coast, and that the US clandestinely supported the administration with logistical support, after congress banned direct backing. The people of East Timor have been through suffering unimaginable to the rest of the world (with the possible exception of that other subjugated mass, the Iraqis), but like all modern tragedies, this was allowed to happen. We would do well to bring to justice those who let it happen, and make sure we know exactly why it happened. After all, like a certain Mr. Hussein, Suharto was a by-product of someone else's power, and only existed, and was allowed freedom to operate, because of it.

You ask a lot of questions so I hope I cover them. First, I would take Britian out of the discussion. Timor was never in their sphere of influence and the region around Indonesia never had any British involvement

The US at times gets (In my opinion) a rough deal over Indonesia. Suhato played quiet a line with the US and got away with it. Papers available on the internet show the game being played and the lies told to the US over the possible emergence of a pan Asian communist block. None of which was true

As far as the actual massacre, there was little Australia could do. The time to act was in 1975 when the initial invasion occured. Sadly both our political parties sold their soul to the devil and did nothing. Fortunately we redeemed ourselves when going back in and helping to fix the problem. It took a 100,000 deaths, but we eventually got there

The oil issue is far better than you describe. The oil comming out of the Timor gap is now regulated with a revenue division of 90 : 10 in favour of East Timor. So although it is obviously a motive to the original lack of action. Again it is something Australia has redressed

Wizard From Oz wrote:

You ask a lot of questions so I hope I cover them. First, I would take Britian out of the discussion. Timor was never in their sphere of influence and the region around Indonesia never had any British involvement

The Australian SAS (the equivalent of the British special forces) trained the very soldiers who partook in the massacre, and they did this with direct aid (and approval) from the British army. The British navy even escorted 'a ship full of Indonesian troops down the Malacca Straits', according to one BBC correspondent, while the UK government, in league with arms manufacturers, provided both the weapons and the 'soft loans' to bolster the Suharto regime. In one year alone, these loans totalled almost a billion pounds, which is what I would call 'influence' (if not clear and obvious 'support').

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The US at times gets (In my opinion) a rough deal over Indonesia. Suhato played quiet a line with the US and got away with it. Papers available on the internet show the game being played and the lies told to the US over the possible emergence of a pan Asian communist block. None of which was true As far as the actual massacre, there was little Australia could do. The time to act was in 1975 when the initial invasion occured. Sadly both our political parties sold their soul to the devil and did nothing. Fortunately we redeemed ourselves when going back in and helping to fix the problem. It took a 100,000 deaths, but we eventually got there

There was a hell of a lot Australia could do - apart from military intervention (perhaps training soldiers of a psychopathic tyrant was not such a great step forward in promoting South East Asian stability?), there was much to be done at the level of political process. Of course, as has been clear by subsequent research, individuals like Richard Woolcott, Australia's ambassador to Jakarta, had no interest in helping East Timor - much less lending credence to the whispers of genocide. Even after the Indonesians killed two Australian television crews, Bob Hawke appeased the bastard Suharto with the frankly idiotic words 'We know your people love you', while Paul Keating regarded the man as a 'father figure'. Personally, I consider this unreedemable.

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The oil issue is far better than you describe. The oil comming out of the Timor gap is now regulated with a revenue division of 90 : 10 in favour of East Timor. So although it is obviously a motive to the original lack of action. Again it is something Australia has redressed

The oil, like everything else of economic worth, was pillaged by a consortium of Western corporations gathered together in Switzerland. They met in November 1967, at a three-day conference sponsored by the Time-Life Corporation in Geneva. In the words of John Pilger (incidentally, an Australian):

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Led by David Rockefeller, all the corporate giants were represented: the major oil companies and banks, General Motors, Imperial Chemical Industries, British American Tobacco, Siemens and US Steel and many others. Across the table sat Suharto’s US-trained economists who agreed to the corporate takeover of their country, sector by sector. The Freeport company got a mountain of copper in West Papua. A US/ European consortium got the nickel. The giant Alcoa company got the biggest slice of Indonesia’s bauxite. America, Japanese and French companies got the tropical forests of Sumatra. When the plunder was complete, President Lyndon Johnson sent his congratulations on “a magnificent story of opportunity seen and promise awakened”. Thirty years later, with the genocide in East Timor also complete, the World Bank described the Suharto dictatorship as a “model pupil”.

Do you deny this?

Soci@lise wrote:

The oil, like everything else of economic worth, was pillaged by a consortium of Western corporations gathered together in Switzerland. They met in November 1967, at a three-day conference sponsored by the Time-Life Corporation in Geneva. In the words of John Pilger (incidentally, an Australian):

Great argument except the oil was not discovered till the early 1970's and the biggest deposit, the sunshine field was not identified till 1974

The rest of your post is pretty pointless, given other than the oil, East Timor had no other natural resources. Deals cut by the Indonesian government to develope their resources have nothing to do with East Timor

One item I found genuinely funny. A British ship escorting Indonesian troop ships in the Malacar strait. Have a look at a map

Wizard From Oz wrote:

Great argument except the oil was not discovered till the early 1970's and the biggest deposit, the sunshine field was not identified till 1974

Any more confident statements of falsehood? Oil has been extracted from Indonesia since 1883. Its most important reserves are the Duri and Minas oil fields in the central Sumatran basin, which were 'discovered just prior to World War II by Caltex, a joint venture between the American companies Chevron and Texaco, although production did not begin until the 1950s.' That quote comes directly from the US Library of congress, so good luck discrediting it.

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The rest of your post is pretty pointless, given other than the oil, East Timor had no other natural resources. Deals cut by the Indonesian government to develope their resources have nothing to do with East Timor

Pointless you say? I mentioned the fire-sale of Indonesian resources to highlight the role of the West in supporting her. Was this not clear? Are we not debating the role of America, Australia and the UK in supporting Suharto's dictatorship? It's obvious to all but the serially-deluded that Indonesia was given carte blanch to invade East Timor and commit genocide because it opened its markets to foreign 'investment'. The same thing has happened all over the world, from Columbia to South Africa, and is precisely why Suharto did not die in chains (as would be the case in a humane world) but surrounded by doctors and specialists.

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One item I found genuinely funny. A British ship escorting Indonesian troop ships in the Malacar strait. Have a look at a map

As for the 'Malacar' strait (for your information it's 'Malacca'), I didn't find that funny. Why? Because the Malacca strait is Indonesia's principle shipping lane, and because it is the 'main shipping channel between the Indian Ocean and the Pacific Ocean'. That it isn't anywhere near East Timor is a moot point (or in your words, 'pointless') because the Indonesian army was aided by the British navy. I didn't say the British Navy dropped the troops off at Kupang - I said they aided and abetted them, which, given the circumstances, was undoubtedly true.

Soci@lise wrote:

Wizard From Oz wrote: Great argument except the oil was not discovered till the early 1970's and the biggest deposit, the sunshine field was not identified till 1974 Any more confident statements of falsehood? Oil has been extracted from Indonesia since 1883. Its most important reserves are the Duri and Minas oil fields in the central Sumatran basin, which were 'discovered just prior to World War II by Caltex, a joint venture between the American companies Chevron and Texaco, although production did not begin until the 1950s.' That quote comes directly from the US Library of congress, so good luck discrediting it

You really are funny. I am talking about the Timor Gap, I re-referenced the Timor Gap.....yet somehow you seem to feel Timor Gap means all oil production in Indonesia

Wizard From Oz wrote:

Soci@lise wrote: Wizard From Oz wrote: Great argument except the oil was not discovered till the early 1970's and the biggest deposit, the sunshine field was not identified till 1974 Any more confident statements of falsehood? Oil has been extracted from Indonesia since 1883. Its most important reserves are the Duri and Minas oil fields in the central Sumatran basin, which were 'discovered just prior to World War II by Caltex, a joint venture between the American companies Chevron and Texaco, although production did not begin until the 1950s.' That quote comes directly from the US Library of congress, so good luck discrediting it You really are funny. I am talking about the Timor Gap, I re-referenced the Timor Gap.....yet somehow you seem to feel Timor Gap means all oil production in Indonesia

Which would make your previous comment (in bold above) nonsensical. Why? Because I was referring to Indonesia, not East Timor. In any case, I see you have gone quiet on the main point of this debate: whether the West was complicit in supporting Suharto. Not surprising, really.

Soci@lise wrote:

Wizard From Oz wrote: Soci@lise wrote: Wizard From Oz wrote: Great argument except the oil was not discovered till the early 1970's and the biggest deposit, the sunshine field was not identified till 1974 Any more confident statements of falsehood? Oil has been extracted from Indonesia since 1883. Its most important reserves are the Duri and Minas oil fields in the central Sumatran basin, which were 'discovered just prior to World War II by Caltex, a joint venture between the American companies Chevron and Texaco, although production did not begin until the 1950s.' That quote comes directly from the US Library of congress, so good luck discrediting it You really are funny. I am talking about the Timor Gap, I re-referenced the Timor Gap.....yet somehow you seem to feel Timor Gap means all oil production in Indonesia Which would make your previous comment (in bold above) nonsensical. Why? Because I was referring to Indonesia, not East Timor. In any case, I see you have gone quiet on the main point of this debate: whether the West was complicit in supporting Suharto. Not surprising, really.

Given the thread is about East Timor..........What else did you think I was talking about

Wizard From Oz wrote:

Wicked Good wrote: Worthy of a Bump, WfO. Cheers. What is the situation like today, there? Extremely good actually. There was a change in the Indonesian government which did take a lot pressure off the new nation, East Timor also has control of a huge oil reserve called the Timor Gap, which means money wont be a major issue for the developement of the country

On the contrary one can say that the situation is very poor. There has been an assassination attempt that left the prime minster at the time in critical condition (he is now president) while the president at that time is now prime minister. Secondly the country is on the brink of civil war and had to call for outside help in maintaining order. Mostly Australian additional troops were redeployed to East Timor just last year I think.

Not something you would call extremely good.

gezdar wrote:

On the contrary one can say that the situation is very poor. There has been an assassination attempt that left the prime minster at the time in critical condition (he is now president) while the president at that time is now prime minister. Secondly the country is on the brink of civil war and had to call for outside help in maintaining order. Mostly Australian additional troops were redeployed to East Timor just last year I think. Not something you would call extremely good.

Thats a fair observation, but I am an optimist. Although the country has suffered some political turmoil, its international security is in good hands, it has the ability to generate good income for itself, so the future does have a certain brightness about it

In recent times things seem to be settling down, the internationa stabilisation force is starting to be down graded, and an Amercian sponsored UN report felt the local police and defense forces were back to a point were they could take up their duties again

Wizard From Oz wrote:

Today marks the 18th anniversary of the Dilli Massacre. This event marked both a highpoint and lowpoint for the people of East Timor seeking independence after the 1975 invasion by Indonesia. Australia Portugal along with a number of other nations ramped up diplomatic pressure after this event, which happly ended with East Timor becoming once again an independent nation in 2002 Two prominent members of the East Timor independence movement won the Noble peace prize in 1996, for their efforts to save their people. In 1999 a UN sponsored invasion of the Island led by forces from Australia, New Zealand, United Kingdom and some very tactile logistical support from the US began the process of independence It is estimated some 100,000 people lost their lives during the period of conflict......An horrific toll for an place both so small, and so peaceful. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dili_Massacre

If they had guns, the story would have been much different. Even if thier guns only had 1 bullet, that is 100,000 people running around that can potentially kill 100,000 evil people.

Yes yes, we know. Guns are the answer to everything

kenpo wrote:

If they had guns, the story would have been much different. Even if thier guns only had 1 bullet, that is 100,000 people running around that can potentially kill 100,000 evil people.

Strange you make the assumption they didn't have guns........because they did. What they lacked was population and the ability to mount an effective defense against a highly organised professional army

Wizard From Oz wrote:

kenpo wrote: If they had guns, the story would have been much different. Even if thier guns only had 1 bullet, that is 100,000 people running around that can potentially kill 100,000 evil people. Strange you make the assumption they didn't have guns........because they did. What they lacked was population and the ability to mount an effective defense against a highly organised professional army

What kind of guns?

Snake wrote:

Yes yes, we know. Guns are the answer to everything

Being unarmed when the other side is shooting bullets at you is not a good way to solve a problem. I have seen the video on youtube of civilians in Timor bleeding on the ground. I didn't see any guns on the ground next to them.