godisnotreal wrote:

nonsequitur wrote: When you join the military, whether it be for a four, five, or six year hitch, when they say jump, you say "how high?" at all times which is why joining the military is a bad idea, although he did goto a military medical school, and maybe that was the only one he could get into? Just speculating... I do know that the military offers to pay a doctor's medical school bills, in return for service, but financially, it usually doesn't make sense. I know people who did it, and wish they hadn't.

There's no need to speculate when the facts are available to read: As reported in WaPo and posted on this thread, Hasan joined the Army immediately after high school.

Lumina wrote:

godisnotreal wrote: nonsequitur wrote: When you join the military, whether it be for a four, five, or six year hitch, when they say jump, you say "how high?" at all times which is why joining the military is a bad idea, although he did goto a military medical school, and maybe that was the only one he could get into? Just speculating... I do know that the military offers to pay a doctor's medical school bills, in return for service, but financially, it usually doesn't make sense. I know people who did it, and wish they hadn't. There's no need to speculate when the facts are available to read: As reported in WaPo and posted on this thread, Hasan joined the Army immediately after high school.

i have a friend who joined the military shortly after high school. He was pretty naiive back then, and didn't really know what he was getting into. And he did it for all the "right" reasons too--wanted to see action, wanted to do something patriotic.

Now he's deployed, he hates his job, and he wants out. Unfortunately, he's wasted the past few years of his life, has no skills, and has to start from square one when he gets out. I can't imagine what it must be like for someone who did it for the "wrong" reasons.

godisnotreal wrote:

which is why joining the military is a bad idea

If you're not prepared to follow this expectation, it most certainly is.

Quote:

although he did goto a military medical school, and maybe that was the only one he could get into? Just speculating...

Who knows

Quote:

I do know that the military offers to pay a doctor's medical school bills, in return for service, but financially, it usually doesn't make sense.

From a strictly financial point of view, I have no idea what you're talking about. College alone is extremely expensive these days. Med school is several times more before its all over. If the military pays for it all and absolves the student of all fiscal requirements to repay, it certainly does make fiscal sense. Doctors who rely on loans to get themselves through are often paying them back for the rest of their careers. Hassan had no such obligation, and he was actually getting paid by the organization to whom he owed money. Staff officers aren't paid peanuts, either.

Of course if one is not prepared to go to war, inasmuch as Hassan would have (as a trained medical professional he would have never been in danger but for a direct attack on his post) then its still a bad idea. You join the military first and foremost to serve as the sword of the United States, and the primary purpose of any sword is war.

Everything else is a side benefit, and people who don't believe that or choose to believe something else are deluding themselves.

The military provides educational opportunities for those who otherwise would have none. If someone pays your medical school tuition, I think working for them afterward for whatever agreed-upon time is a fair trade.

Not that this has anything to do with the thread.

nonsequitur wrote:

From a strictly financial point of view, I have no idea what you're talking about. College alone is extremely expensive these days. Med school is several times more before its all over. If the military pays for it all and absolves the student of all fiscal requirements to repay, it certainly does make fiscal sense. Doctors who rely on loans to get themselves through are often paying them back for the rest of their careers. Hassan had no such obligation, and he was actually getting paid by the organization to whom he owed money. Staff officers aren't paid peanuts, either.

it depends. many school loans are taken out at a very low interest rate (some of it may be at or even below the average rate of inflation). And the money you get from the military does not exceed the earning potential you would be giving up if you were a practicing physician. An internal medicine doc can make $150,000-$200,000 per year, and a surgeon, a lot more. Plus, you're giving up years where you could be building up your practice. So if you're giving up all these years of income potential to be in the military, it's not going to be worth it financially, even if they do pay for schooling.

godisnotreal wrote:

nonsequitur wrote: From a strictly financial point of view, I have no idea what you're talking about. College alone is extremely expensive these days. Med school is several times more before its all over. If the military pays for it all and absolves the student of all fiscal requirements to repay, it certainly does make fiscal sense. Doctors who rely on loans to get themselves through are often paying them back for the rest of their careers. Hassan had no such obligation, and he was actually getting paid by the organization to whom he owed money. Staff officers aren't paid peanuts, either. it depends. many school loans are taken out at a very low interest rate (some of it may be at or even below the average rate of inflation). And the money you get from the military does not exceed the earning potential you would be giving up if you were a practicing physician. An internal medicine doc can make $150,000-$200,000 per year, and a surgeon, a lot more. Plus, you're giving up years where you could be building up your practice. So if you're giving up all these years of income potential to be in the military, it's not going to be worth it financially, even if they do pay for schooling.

Doctor's in the military have the best resumes in the world. Their experience with medical and psychological extremes from war and military living will land them a job anywhere they so choose.

FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) - Former President George W. Bush and his wife, Laura, have visited wounded soldiers and their families after the mass shooting at Fort Hood.

The Bushes made their private visit to Fort Hood's Darnall Army Medical Center on Friday night. Bush spokesman David Sherzer said in an e-mail that the couple thanked Fort Hood's military leaders and hospital staff for the "amazing care they are providing."

http://www.kbtx.com/news/headlines/69464682.html

I'm not sure about this, but I was under the impression that the rules are slightly different for officers than for enlisted, in that an officer can get out at any time by simply resigning his commission.
Regardless of whether this is true or not, if he disagreed with the war against his 'muslim brothers' he could have gotten out a long time ago if he so chose. Plenty of people have joined and then left the armed forces since the Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq started.....

Its revolting that people would try to find excuses for this man for doing what he did. Short of mental illness, he HAD no excuse for his actions.....

thundertaker wrote:

I'm not sure about this, but I was under the impression that the rules are slightly different for officers than for enlisted, in that an officer can get out at any time by simply resigning his commission. Regardless of whether this is true or not, if he disagreed with the war against his 'muslim brothers' he could have gotten out a long time ago if he so chose. Plenty of people have joined and then left the armed forces since the Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq started..... Its revolting that people would try to find excuses for this man for doing what he did. Short of mental illness, he HAD no excuse for his actions.....

Somebody who could do what he did is crazy on some level.

Ameriman wrote:

godisnotreal wrote: nonsequitur wrote: From a strictly financial point of view, I have no idea what you're talking about. College alone is extremely expensive these days. Med school is several times more before its all over. If the military pays for it all and absolves the student of all fiscal requirements to repay, it certainly does make fiscal sense. Doctors who rely on loans to get themselves through are often paying them back for the rest of their careers. Hassan had no such obligation, and he was actually getting paid by the organization to whom he owed money. Staff officers aren't paid peanuts, either. it depends. many school loans are taken out at a very low interest rate (some of it may be at or even below the average rate of inflation). And the money you get from the military does not exceed the earning potential you would be giving up if you were a practicing physician. An internal medicine doc can make $150,000-$200,000 per year, and a surgeon, a lot more. Plus, you're giving up years where you could be building up your practice. So if you're giving up all these years of income potential to be in the military, it's not going to be worth it financially, even if they do pay for schooling. Doctor's in the military have the best resumes in the world. Their experience with medical and psychological extremes from war and military living will land them a job anywhere they so choose.

may be true for certain specialties if you're interested in going into academia. Not really true for private practice. And not really true for most specialties. Although most doctors can land a job anywhere they want anyway.

Lumina wrote:

FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) - Former President George W. Bush and his wife, Laura, have visited wounded soldiers and their families after the mass shooting at Fort Hood. The Bushes made their private visit to Fort Hood's Darnall Army Medical Center on Friday night. Bush spokesman David Sherzer said in an e-mail that the couple thanked Fort Hood's military leaders and hospital staff for the "amazing care they are providing." http://www.kbtx.com/news/headlines/69464682.html

the couple thanked Fort Hood's military leaders and hospital staff for the "amazing [government run] care they are providing."

sorry, just couldn't resist

Quote:

I'm not sure about this, but I was under the impression that the rules are slightly different for officers than for enlisted, in that an officer can get out at any time by simply resigning his commission.

That's usually the case, but people like Hassan have a commitment to fulfill following their payment of education. They sign a contract stating that they cannot resign under voluntary circumstances for a certain period of time following commission. For Hassan that was 5 years.

godisnotreal wrote:

Lumina wrote: FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) - Former President George W. Bush and his wife, Laura, have visited wounded soldiers and their families after the mass shooting at Fort Hood. The Bushes made their private visit to Fort Hood's Darnall Army Medical Center on Friday night. Bush spokesman David Sherzer said in an e-mail that the couple thanked Fort Hood's military leaders and hospital staff for the "amazing care they are providing." http://www.kbtx.com/news/headlines/69464682.html the couple thanked Fort Hood's military leaders and hospital staff for the "amazing [government run] care they are providing." sorry, just couldn't resist

Sorry; I don't see the humor. But perhaps you know more about Darnall than I do.

Lumina wrote:

godisnotreal wrote: Lumina wrote: FORT HOOD, Texas (AP) - Former President George W. Bush and his wife, Laura, have visited wounded soldiers and their families after the mass shooting at Fort Hood. The Bushes made their private visit to Fort Hood's Darnall Army Medical Center on Friday night. Bush spokesman David Sherzer said in an e-mail that the couple thanked Fort Hood's military leaders and hospital staff for the "amazing care they are providing." http://www.kbtx.com/news/headlines/69464682.html the couple thanked Fort Hood's military leaders and hospital staff for the "amazing [government run] care they are providing." sorry, just couldn't resist Sorry; I don't see the humor. But perhaps you know more about Darnall than I do.

well darnall is govt run--which means it can't possibly be good......

Huh ! I'm not surprised. Recruiting Muslims into your Armed Forces is simply asking for trouble. For them, their religion comes first, country comes a distant second... if at all . We Hindus have to put up with them here in India because they have a sizable presence here..... political parties nurture them because they are a useful vote bank... so can't do much about them here.
But you Americans are under no such compulsions..... I say kick them all out before they increase their numbers and swamp you and become a permanent problem.

From the NY Times:

Little Evidence of Terror Plot in Base Killings

By DAVID JOHNSTON and ERIC SCHMITT
Published: November 7, 2009

WASHINGTON — After two days of inquiry into the mass shooting at Fort Hood, investigators have tentatively concluded that it was not part of a terrorist plot.

Rather, they have come to believe that Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the Army psychiatrist accused in the shootings, acted out under a welter of emotional, ideological and religious pressures, according to interviews with federal officials who have been briefed on the inquiry.

Investigators have not ruled out the possibility that Major Hasan believed he was carrying out an extremist’s suicide mission.

But the investigators, working with behavioral experts, suggested that he might have long suffered from emotional problems that were exacerbated by the tensions of his work with veterans of the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan who returned home with serious psychiatric problems.

They said his counseling activities with the veterans appear to have further fueled his anger and hardened his increasingly militant views as he was seeming to move toward more extreme religious beliefs — all of which boiled over as he faced being shipped overseas, an assignment he bitterly opposed.

Investigators have gleaned most of their findings from Major Hasan’s computer use and from interviews with his family members, co-workers and neighbors. One significant investigative thrust has involved determining whether Major Hasan had contact with extremists who preyed on his increasingly angry and outspoken opposition to American policies in Afghanistan and Iraq.

But so far, investigators have unearthed no evidence that he was directed or steered into violence or ever traveled overseas to meet with extremist groups, as defendants in some recent terrorism cases are accused of doing, the officials said.

The officials emphasized that their findings were preliminary and that the investigation was fluid. New information could alter their perceptions of Major Hasan’s motives. But the early conclusions are already influencing the course of the inquiry, including which law enforcement agencies lead it.

“It’s early, but it looks like there are a number of factors going on here,” said a senior government official who, like others, spoke on the condition of anonymity because the findings do not represent the government’s formal investigative and legal views of the case.

The officials said a continuing search of Major Hasan’s computer indicates that he had logged on to Web sites that celebrated radical Islamic ideologies and that he had exchanged e-mail messages with like-minded people, some possibly overseas. In addition, they believe that he may have written inflammatory Internet postings that justified suicide attacks, though that has not been concretely established.

Still, investigators have found no evidence that Major Hasan sent e-mail messages to known terrorists or anyone else who encouraged or helped him to orchestrate the shootings.

...The possibility that the Fort Hood attack involved terrorism arose for a number of reasons. For one, early reports from the chaotic scene indicated that there might have been more than one gunman. Investigators have now said publicly that there was only one shooter. Also, friends and work associates of Major Hasan have described his increasing doubts about the American military missions in Iraq and Afghanistan.

In interviews in recent days, friends and others have portrayed Major Hasan as a troubled man, deeply concerned about being deployed to the war zones.

Investigators from the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Army’s Criminal Investigation Command are moving deliberately through their search of Major Hasan’s computers. They suspect that he might have used multiple e-mail accounts and fictitious identities, and might have destroyed documents in advance of the attack, perhaps in an effort to conceal his activities in the days leading up to the shootings.

Such steps could be revealing and potentially legally significant as evidence that the killings were premeditated and not the spontaneous outburst of a mentally impaired malcontent.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/08/us/08investigate.html?hp

shrapnel wrote:

Huh ! I'm not surprised. Recruiting Muslims into your Armed Forces is simply asking for trouble. For them, their religion comes first, country comes a distant second... if at all . We Hindus have to put up with them here in India because they have a sizable presence here..... political parties nurture them because they are a useful vote bank... so can't do much about them here. But you Americans are under no such compulsions..... I say kick them all out before they increase their numbers and swamp you and become a permanent problem.

In the US, I often wish that both religion and country would come a distant second to logical, rational thought--but I guess that's too much to ask sometimes.....

I do have to say that I'm not a big fan of religion, or patriotism, in general. Muslims, Christians, Hindus--it's all crazy to me. It's all just brainwashing--no matter how you slice it.

Lumina wrote:

From the NY Times:

OMG--you actually do read the NYT!!! LOL.

But seriously, I do think that he's gonna try to plead insanity. It would be interesting to see how people would react if that strategy actually gets him off the hook....

shrapnel wrote:

Huh ! I'm not surprised. Recruiting Muslims into your Armed Forces is simply asking for trouble. For them, their religion comes first, country comes a distant second... if at all . We Hindus have to put up with them here in India because they have a sizable presence here..... political parties nurture them because they are a useful vote bank... so can't do much about them here. But you Americans are under no such compulsions..... I say kick them all out before they increase their numbers and swamp you and become a permanent problem.

The vast majority of the Muslims serving in the US military serve honorably and are patriots just as much as anyone else. Quite a few of them, if you're questioning their motivations regarding faith, see the enemies of the US, namely AQ, as abominations of Islam, and so are more motivated to fight them even more than the average soldier/sailor/marine/airman. Furthermore, Hassan, while he was apparently a devout Muslim, clearly committed these crimes for his own selfish reasons. That he shouted "allahu akbar!" when he opened fire shows how insecure he is in that; if he was really dedicated to his faith, he'd know that he's going straight to Hell for what he's done, in the eyes of Islam. Perhaps he does and was just searching for closure. I don't pretend to fully understand the psyche of murderers.