Jaqa wrote:

but that makes no sense. from the moment of conception, that set of cells becomes human life, through fetal stages it is alive, it has a heartbeat, eyes, a brain, often aborted fetuses have the ability to hear. they are human. it is a stage of human life.

It only makes no sense to those who are ignorant of the stages of fetal development. It would do you well to read up on it before posting senseless banter.

8 weeks, at a little more than an inch long, the developing life is now called a fetus - Latin for "young one" or "offspring." Everything is now present that will be found in a fully developed adult. The heart has been beating for more than a month, the stomach produces digestive juices and the kidneys have begun to function. Forty muscle sets begin to operate in conjunction with the nervous system. The fetus' body responds to touch. Fingerprints are evident in the skin.

Jaqa wrote:

8 weeks, at a little more than an inch long, the developing life is now called a fetus - Latin for "young one" or "offspring." Everything is now present that will be found in a fully developed adult. The heart has been beating for more than a month, the stomach produces digestive juices and the kidneys have begun to function. Forty muscle sets begin to operate in conjunction with the nervous system. The fetus' body responds to touch. Fingerprints are evident in the skin.

...

And there is no higher brain functions meaning the fetus has no consciousness.

Fetal Development at 22 weeks
The baby is more than 12 inches long by now. The mother has definitely already begun to feel movement. If a sound is especially loud or startling, the fetus may jump in reaction to it. All the parts in the brain are in place for the baby to experience pain.

Jaqa wrote:

Fetal Development at 22 weeks The baby is more than 12 inches long by now. The mother has definitely already begun to feel movement. If a sound is especially loud or startling, the fetus may jump in reaction to it. All the parts in the brain are in place for the baby to experience pain.

And the percent of centers that will provide abortions past the 20 week mark without some kind of medical complications from the pregnancy?

1.4% of abortions in the state of california take place past the 21 week mark

Jaqa wrote:

1.4% of abortions in the state of california take place past the 21 week mark

You are arguing the exceptions not the underlying issue. It is not a convincing effort.

i am proving my credibiltiy, i am pretty well versed in the process of abortion, and think that it is moraly wrong. in very few cases do i think it aceptable, and even then only in the first trimester. my argument is this:

a fetus is a human being, it is defined as so by various federal laws.

it is the fault of the parents if they didn't use protection in a country where so many forms are so abundent and avalible to all. the argument that they didnt realize the mother could get pregnant seems rediculous.

the process of abortion is grotesque and violent, so they should at least restrict abortion meathods to ethicly acceptable ones

abortion should at least be constricted to the first trimester

in the case of underage pregnancy, parental consent should not be nessesary

Jaqa wrote:

i am proving my credibiltiy, i am pretty well versed in the process of abortion, and think that it is moraly wrong. in very few cases do i think it aceptable, and even then only in the first trimester.

You see, right there you already have a problem, actually two. If you can only argue your position on abortion from a moral standpoint you are doomed to fail because there are no moral absolutes that fit everyone, or rather there are very few and they obviously do not include abortion. The second problem is that you concede that in some cases it is OK to kill the fetus. Why should you be the one that decides when that is OK?

Quote:

a fetus is a human being, it is defined as so by various federal laws.

While it is true from a scientific perspective, I am not aware of any federal laws that define fetuses. Please cite them.

Quote:

it is the fault of the parents if they didn't use protection in a country where so many forms are so abundent and avalible to all. the argument that they didnt realize the mother could get pregnant seems rediculous.

We already covered that and while it may seem ridiculous to you it is none the less factual. You simply can not assume you know how and why any woman gets pregnant unless you are a party to the act.

Quote:

the process of abortion is grotesque and violent

As compared to what? Have you ever seen one? Have you ever seen eye surgery or any other major surgery? Violent? How so? And please lets remain at the most common method performed at the most common time in the pregnancy.

Quote:

so they should at least restrict abortion meathods to ethicly acceptable ones

I can assure you that the methods that are used are by far the bast way to accomplish what has to be done. Abortion is not an easy undertaking for anyone, not the pregnant woman not the doctor. No one take any pleasure in the performing of the abortion and it is already well regulated.

Quote:

abortion should at least be constricted to the first trimester

By far most abortions are performed in the first trimester. It is reasonable to state that the number of elective abortions done in later stages of pregancy are not significant enough to warrant policy or legal consideration. Keep in mind that perfection can not be achieved and some exceptions or abuses will take place as with anything and everything else in life.

Quote:

in the case of underage pregnancy, parental consent should not be nessesary

On the surface I would agree with that, but the reality is that a pregnancy for a very young girl is a great emotional burden. It can create confusion and despair that no one should face alone, much less so in deciding something so critical. Not only are there valid health concerns including emotional ones that can affect the girl but even the developing fetus. For that reason competent unbiased and confidential counseling should be available to all pregnant girls and women who feel that they can not turn to their families for support.

prometeus wrote:

Jaqa wrote: i am proving my credibiltiy, i am pretty well versed in the process of abortion, and think that it is moraly wrong. in very few cases do i think it aceptable, and even then only in the first trimester. You see, right there you already have a problem, actually two. If you can only argue your position on abortion from a moral standpoint you are doomed to fail because there are no moral absolutes that fit everyone, or rather there are very few and they obviously do not include abortion. The second problem is that you concede that in some cases it is OK to kill the fetus. Why should you be the one that decides when that is OK? Quote: a fetus is a human being, it is defined as so by various federal laws. While it is true from a scientific perspective, I am not aware of any federal laws that define fetuses. Please cite them. Quote: it is the fault of the parents if they didn't use protection in a country where so many forms are so abundent and avalible to all. the argument that they didnt realize the mother could get pregnant seems rediculous. We already covered that and while it may seem ridiculous to you it is none the less factual. You simply can not assume you know how and why any woman gets pregnant unless you are a party to the act. Quote: the process of abortion is grotesque and violent As compared to what? Have you ever seen one? Have you ever seen eye surgery or any other major surgery? Violent? How so? And please lets remain at the most common method performed at the most common time in the pregnancy. Quote: so they should at least restrict abortion meathods to ethicly acceptable ones I can assure you that the methods that are used are by far the bast way to accomplish what has to be done. Abortion is not an easy undertaking for anyone, not the pregnant woman not the doctor. No one take any pleasure in the performing of the abortion and it is already well regulated. Quote: abortion should at least be constricted to the first trimester By far most abortions are performed in the first trimester. It is reasonable to state that the number of elective abortions done in later stages of pregancy are not significant enough to warrant policy or legal consideration. Keep in mind that perfection can not be achieved and some exceptions or abuses will take place as with anything and everything else in life. Quote: in the case of underage pregnancy, parental consent should not be nessesary On the surface I would agree with that, but the reality is that a pregnancy for a very young girl is a great emotional burden. It can create confusion and despair that no one should face alone, much less so in deciding something so critical. Not only are there valid health concerns including emotional ones that can affect the girl but even the developing fetus. For that reason competent unbiased and confidential counseling should be available to all pregnant girls and women who feel that they can not turn to their families for support.

the killing of a pregnant woman is conciderd 2 counts of murder or manslaughter, the assult of a pregnant woman is concidered child abuse as well as domastic abuse (in a domestic case)

a little less then half of the abortions that take place are in the first trimester

do you actualy know how abortions are carried out?

unfortunetly parental consent laws cause a conflict where the child cannot have an abortion preformed unless informing their parents, who in their mind would be hugely dissapointed in them, and there is nothing worse for a teenage kid to know that their parent is dissapointed, this leads to secretly giving birth to, and then killing their child

Jaqa wrote:

1.4% of abortions in the state of california take place past the 21 week mark

Which means 98.6% take place before.

Jaqa wrote:

i am proving my credibiltiy, i am pretty well versed in the process of abortion, and think that it is moraly wrong. in very few cases do i think it aceptable, and even then only in the first trimester. my argument is this: a fetus is a human being, it is defined as so by various federal laws.

"A human being" has not been defined by society, a fetus IS human (adjective), but not necessarily "a human being" (noun). If you are speaking of Lacy and Connor's law, remember that it is only effective on federal property. Some states have similar laws, but not all.

Quote:

it is the fault of the parents if they didn't use protection in a country where so many forms are so abundent and avalible to all. the argument that they didnt realize the mother could get pregnant seems rediculous.

It is the fault of the parents, so the faulty persons must be punished by forced pregnancy?? An unplanned pregnancy can result from failed birth control, it is not necessarily negligence on the part of the to-be parents.

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the process of abortion is grotesque and violent, so they should at least restrict abortion meathods to ethicly acceptable ones

BIRTH is grotesque and violent, do you think it should be restricted?

Quote:

abortion should at least be constricted to the first trimester

Almost 90% of abortions occur in the first trimester. A large portion of the remaining 10% are medically necessary. It doesn't appear that further legislation is necessary to achieve your goal.

http://www.guttmacher.org/in-the-know/index.html15.

When in pregnancy do most women have abortions?

In the United States, nearly nine in 10 abortions occur in the first 12 weeks of pregnancy and 56% occur in the first eight weeks. (30)

Quote:

in the case of underage pregnancy, parental consent should not be nessesary

Agreed.

I find it funny how most of the people who are anti-abortion are the same people who will NEVER be pregnant a day in their lives (*cough* *cough* MEN).

I wish all of these MEN would spend one year in the shoes of women. Maybe THAT'LL educate their ignorant minds!

MissOpinionated wrote:

I find it funny how most of the people who are anti-abortion are the same people who will NEVER be pregnant a day in their lives (*cough* *cough* MEN). I wish all of these MEN would spend one year in the shoes of women. Maybe THAT'LL educate their ignorant minds!

<---- man

Jaqa wrote:

do you actualy know how abortions are carried out?

I do.

It all depends on what trimester though. Not all abortions are "partial birth" abortions where sledge hammers are taken to "babies" heads or whatever other nonsense you were going to spout.

Kildars wrote:

How does aborting the child make the rape correct? How does aborting the child DO ANYTHING to make the situation better?

It absolutely doesn't make the rape correct but I don't see why you make it illegal for her to get an abortion it's her decision to make nobody else's

Quote:

it is the fault of the parents if they didn't use protection in a country where so many forms are so abundent and avalible to all

Maybe they didn't because of all the misinformation, lies, and harrasment by religious people in this country?

Quote:

abortion should at least be constricted to the first trimester

Fine, but most pro-life people want to outlaw abortion completely, and many are against birth control as well.

Tabula rasa. You try and raise the demonspawn and teach it right from wrong.

Of course, that's if you're dealing with a sentient lifeform and not just some kind of monster. Human beings have unalienable rights to life and liberty.

Mindless armageddon beasts don't.

And this thread...

JayDubya wrote:

Human beings have unalienable rights to life and liberty.

We both know that that is not true. Not in practice, not even in theory, not in history and not likely in the future, which leaves it to be only wishful thinking.

All 13 years olds that become pregnant should get abortions.

/thread.