Political Crossfire Forums

[Fist in the air]

So well put Krinkle, and so true.

[BlueEmperor1]

watermelon wrote: BlueEmperor1 wrote: You're welcome, Dave. It would be a real shame for Australians to abolish the Australian Crown, thereby cutting their historic ties with the Mother Country through shared allegience to a shared monarch.

B.E.

Why should Australia remained tried to an outdated Autocratic system that has no allegiance to the Nation, take WW2 as an example, and what's more why cling to a monarch that many of the British no longer want

How are our constitutional monarchies 'autocratic'?

How is WWII an example?

What are you talking about? The vast, overwhelming majority of Brits totally and unreservedly support The Queen. She has served this country and the Commonwealth faithfully and dilligently for over 50 years! She is much-loved and respected by all.

B.E.

[Golddave]

krinkle wrote: Golddave wrote: What a load of left wing, propaganda BS. I have never been to a young libs meeting. I watched the debate and I must say, Latham just sprouts crap that people want to hear. "We'll do more in this corner of the world... blah blah blah". We are not a bigger target for our participation in Iraq, I was deployed there first hand and I feel better that I was there when Saddam was ousted. The people were so happy that they were now free, the vast majority of them are friendly, beautiful people who loved the fact Australians were there to help out. Isn't that in our nation as Australians? To get in there and give a hand when it is needed? The housing market is starting to come down, interest rates are good and unemployment is extreamyl low, that is why the great australian dream is possible. As for you pass the ganja greenies, you have no idea, if you want howard and his government out, vote for Latham because the greens are not going to pull the kind of votes needed to make a huge difference. I do not see in the near future, the greens being a MAJOR party. Ie. Severly rivaling ALP and the coalition. Howard is not a human rights violator, it is our right as a country to protect our borders, just because we are an island continent does n't make us any different.
I am sick of this p/c crowd spewing on about this crap.

Howard is a human rights violator and should be tried in an international court. He has lock people up in the middle of the desert who are guilt of no crime. Assylum seekers are not our enemy, either are Aboriginies, Workers, Young People, Iraqis, Muslims or anyone that earns under 52,000 a year. Our real enemy is Howard he is trying to shift the crosshairs of his own head by blaming the powerless. The day will come, i hope on October 9, that we will be rid of this criminal despot.

As for locking people up in the desert, well they shouldn't be here in the first place, there are ways to apply for refugee status, legally, these people are illegally entering the country. I had a friend of mine who was responsible for boarding boats in the NT and searching for illegal substances, illegal immigrants etc. He told me stories about how he'd go aboard the junk and they would be like "we love australia" and when they were informed they weren't allowed into the country because they were entering illegally, the cries quickly became violent and anti australian, hope bin laden gets you etc. I do not want people like that in my country, we should be compassionate but not complacent, Australia, its people, their way of life, that should come first.

Fist in the air, I think it is absolutely ridiculous how you compare the budget with discriminating against people, I earn under $52000 a year, I am a worker and a young person, hell I have even dabbled in Islam but you do not see me, trying to jump on the band wagon and say, "help me I am hard done by".
The world is your oyster go and out there and make it, no one else is going to do it for you, being young, an immigrant, of another race, colour or creed is not an excuse, embrace who you are, love it and better yourself. Only then will you get ahead.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

- Saddam Hussein had been murdering and terrorizing the Iraqi people for over 30 years, at times with the support of the US administration.

- Iraq has been in possession on chemical weapons since the late 1970's. The US was well aware of this as they provided SAT Imagery for the Iraqi Army to use in chemical attacks against the Iranians.

- Iraq WAS a secular society, renowned for its hard-line approach to terrorist organisations.

- Iraq is not a nuclear power.

I'm struggling to understand on what basis you could be happy to participate in this illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. The fact that Saddam is gone is a good thing, but at what cost?

You are so hypocritical and righteous mate, on one hand you claim the Iraqi people (when within the confines of their own country) are worthy of our/your help, yet when they arrive as refugees on our shores (they're people who are fleeing the country from ethnic, religious or political persecution) you think we should lock them up in cages in the middle of the f***ing desert. You can't have it both ways champ. If your gonna be an scared little pric and support a government that wants to disregard the international conventions on human rights....DON'T EVER ATTEMPT TO USE THE WELFARE OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AS JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR ACTIONS, BECAUSE THAT IS JUST f***ing LAUGHABLE!!

Obviously be it right or wrong the events of September 11 accelerated a definate and defiant stance against Saddam Hussein. It should have been done much earlier, they had the oppurtunity in the first gulf war to keep rolling in past Basra rd but they didn't. I believe that was a mistake. I was not part of the invasion of Iraq, by the time I got there most of that was being mopped up, I was part of the occupying force, not the invading force, I would like to make that clear however I do not think I have to justify myself to you because I am a patriot and proud to serve my country in any capacity that I believe in. You tend to forget these immigrants are "ILLEGALLY" entering the country. Yes, it is unfortunate of the circumstances that allow this to occur, we should be sorting out the problems before they even get to this point. An asylum seeker has the right to seek refugee status in this country but what do you expect? to put them up at the hilton hotel? I remember when they allowed refugees to stay at Singleton Army barracks and they all bitched and whinged. It was good enough for my uncle before he went over to vietnam. Enough is enough, if you don't do things the right way, its the high way, bottom F**K** line. Why should we have to pay because others are neglecting their responsibilities? I believe we should help them, I am not heartless but at the same time, there are right and wrong ways to go about things. Australia is not alone with its immigration policies. There is overwealming evidence that Iraq was sympathtic to terroist causes. Bin Laden has met with Saddam in the past, there is an old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Do the maths.

[Golddave]

Fist in the air wrote: Embrace the world for yourself, or embrace the world for a common humanity. Whats the point of embracing the world if your rise up helps no one but yourself.

I have met many assylum seekers and the ones i know are good people.

Your personal judgements on a whole group of people are wrong just because of the view of some guy you know.

If you were in Afghanistan, dodging bombs n the like, having the TAliban in power, the Taliban that the U.S gave millions of dollars to before changing its mind and going to war against it. If you were getting beaten by the Taliban and bombed by the US, and having nothing except a hunger in your stomach. IF your dad went to get a food package and got blown up by a U.S bomb on the way and all that remained for you was certain death what other option is their but to flee.

And if you arrived here knowing we were a US ally and after spending years following your dream of political assylum and you got a gun pointed in your face from border patrol, strip searched and hit i bet you might to say something like i hope Bin LAden gets you.


I can understand that.

I can also understand that there is no way to apply for Asylum for most people that need it.

REfugees are human beings, lets recognise our common humanity and treat them like people.

LEts vote Howard out and stop our fast decent into becoming the new South Africa.

If Howard gets voted back in he will have less hesitation in introducing more draconian measures.


You have to clean your own backyard before you help the neighbour, charity starts at home. You can't help anyone if you are a whinging prat who feels sorry for themselves and doesn't want to give anything a go.
I am obviously not going off "one person's view" as you so aptly put it.
I have no problem helping asylum seekers if they respect our laws and go about it the right way, this is Australia, not Afganistan. I have been to war torn countries before in my capacity as a soldier, I do know what war is so you don't need to preach to me. Millions of dollars are spent protecting our borders each year and housing these criminals, yes they broke the law, a lot of you seem to forget that. Maybe the money can be spent better by having programs to help these people out, maybe opening a processing center on Christmas Island where these people are not "caged like animals" as you have put it. The bottom line is though, while things are the way they are, refugees will continue to be treated like criminals.

[watermelon]

BlueEmperor1 wrote:

How are our constitutional monarchies 'autocratic'?

How is WWII an example?

What are you talking about? The vast, overwhelming majority of Brits totally and unreservedly support The Queen. She has served this country and the Commonwealth faithfully and diligently for over 50 years! She is much-loved and respected by all.

B.E.

1) An autocratic system may be said to be subservient to the whims of a single ruler or that of its aristocracy.....and the house of Lords is?

2) In the second world war the British forces quite openly decided to centralize its defense of its Empire on Britain. A small ill equipped, brigade defending Singapore did little in the defense of Australia or the other Pacific 'colonies.' That defense came from our own initiatives and the aid of the US

3) Do the vast majority of Britons support the Queen? why toy with having a referendum to decide over a republic? How can you judge what is the 'overwhelming opinion' of the British...a vast proportion of your country cant even be bothered to turn out to vote?!.

and finally how has the Queen served the Commonwealth in the last Fifty years? By being a highly paid civil servant with an out dated position to 'rubber-stamp' all legislation presented to her? or just as a useful civic icon to wheel out on public occasions.

Having family estates, a Noble lineage and expensive tastes in vulgar clothing does not equate to being a useful leader of a society.

[thundertaker]

The rightfull heir to the English throne is an australian citizen, so I've heard......

[Fist in the air]

Assylum seekers have broken no laws.

The better and cheaper alternative is to house assylum seekers in community housing centres while they await their visa processing, like what happens in New Zeland. Also allow them work rights and run a means tested system so if they are working they have to pay rent. This will radically reduce the cost of detention that is a huge waste of money and only brings hardship and oppresses some of the greatest victims in this world.

[thundertaker]

http://www.in-sourced.com/article/articleprint/1091/-1/13/

All hail Michael I!!!

[krinkle]

Golddave wrote: krinkle wrote: Golddave wrote: What a load of left wing, propaganda BS. I have never been to a young libs meeting. I watched the debate and I must say, Latham just sprouts crap that people want to hear. "We'll do more in this corner of the world... blah blah blah". We are not a bigger target for our participation in Iraq, I was deployed there first hand and I feel better that I was there when Saddam was ousted. The people were so happy that they were now free, the vast majority of them are friendly, beautiful people who loved the fact Australians were there to help out. Isn't that in our nation as Australians? To get in there and give a hand when it is needed? The housing market is starting to come down, interest rates are good and unemployment is extreamyl low, that is why the great australian dream is possible. As for you pass the ganja greenies, you have no idea, if you want howard and his government out, vote for Latham because the greens are not going to pull the kind of votes needed to make a huge difference. I do not see in the near future, the greens being a MAJOR party. Ie. Severly rivaling ALP and the coalition. Howard is not a human rights violator, it is our right as a country to protect our borders, just because we are an island continent does n't make us any different.
I am sick of this p/c crowd spewing on about this crap.

Howard is a human rights violator and should be tried in an international court. He has lock people up in the middle of the desert who are guilt of no crime. Assylum seekers are not our enemy, either are Aboriginies, Workers, Young People, Iraqis, Muslims or anyone that earns under 52,000 a year. Our real enemy is Howard he is trying to shift the crosshairs of his own head by blaming the powerless. The day will come, i hope on October 9, that we will be rid of this criminal despot.

As for locking people up in the desert, well they shouldn't be here in the first place, there are ways to apply for refugee status, legally, these people are illegally entering the country. I had a friend of mine who was responsible for boarding boats in the NT and searching for illegal substances, illegal immigrants etc. He told me stories about how he'd go aboard the junk and they would be like "we love australia" and when they were informed they weren't allowed into the country because they were entering illegally, the cries quickly became violent and anti australian, hope bin laden gets you etc. I do not want people like that in my country, we should be compassionate but not complacent, Australia, its people, their way of life, that should come first.

Fist in the air, I think it is absolutely ridiculous how you compare the budget with discriminating against people, I earn under $52000 a year, I am a worker and a young person, hell I have even dabbled in Islam but you do not see me, trying to jump on the band wagon and say, "help me I am hard done by".
The world is your oyster go and out there and make it, no one else is going to do it for you, being young, an immigrant, of another race, colour or creed is not an excuse, embrace who you are, love it and better yourself. Only then will you get ahead.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

- Saddam Hussein had been murdering and terrorizing the Iraqi people for over 30 years, at times with the support of the US administration.

- Iraq has been in possession on chemical weapons since the late 1970's. The US was well aware of this as they provided SAT Imagery for the Iraqi Army to use in chemical attacks against the Iranians.

- Iraq WAS a secular society, renowned for its hard-line approach to terrorist organisations.

- Iraq is not a nuclear power.

I'm struggling to understand on what basis you could be happy to participate in this illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. The fact that Saddam is gone is a good thing, but at what cost?

You are so hypocritical and righteous mate, on one hand you claim the Iraqi people (when within the confines of their own country) are worthy of our/your help, yet when they arrive as refugees on our shores (they're people who are fleeing the country from ethnic, religious or political persecution) you think we should lock them up in cages in the middle of the f***ing desert. You can't have it both ways champ. If your gonna be an scared little pric and support a government that wants to disregard the international conventions on human rights....DON'T EVER ATTEMPT TO USE THE WELFARE OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AS JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR ACTIONS, BECAUSE THAT IS JUST f***ing LAUGHABLE!!

Obviously be it right or wrong the events of September 11 accelerated a definate and defiant stance against Saddam Hussein. It should have been done much earlier, they had the oppurtunity in the first gulf war to keep rolling in past Basra rd but they didn't. I believe that was a mistake. I was not part of the invasion of Iraq, by the time I got there most of that was being mopped up, I was part of the occupying force, not the invading force, I would like to make that clear however I do not think I have to justify myself to you because I am a patriot and proud to serve my country in any capacity that I believe in. You tend to forget these immigrants are "ILLEGALLY" entering the country. Yes, it is unfortunate of the circumstances that allow this to occur, we should be sorting out the problems before they even get to this point. An asylum seeker has the right to seek refugee status in this country but what do you expect? to put them up at the hilton hotel? I remember when they allowed refugees to stay at Singleton Army barracks and they all bitched and whinged. It was good enough for my uncle before he went over to vietnam. Enough is enough, if you don't do things the right way, its the high way, bottom F**K** line. Why should we have to pay because others are neglecting their responsibilities? I believe we should help them, I am not heartless but at the same time, there are right and wrong ways to go about things. Australia is not alone with its immigration policies. There is overwealming evidence that Iraq was sympathtic to terroist causes. Bin Laden has met with Saddam in the past, there is an old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Do the maths.

NO! Not obviously anything. The events of Sep 11 had no connection to Iraq or Saddam Hussein. None have ever been proven and there is no overwhelming evidence to prove that Iraq had connections to any terrorist orginisation whatsoever. Where is your proof?? If it is so damning and you have it all....let's here it then, blow by blow.

Refugees are not illegal immigrants, they're asylum seekers. An illegal immigrant is someone who is attempting to violate a countries immigration law by entering said country illegally....kinda makes you wonder how they got the name? Now, when these filthy rotten criminals break this rather fundamental LAW of all sovereign nations, they are put before a court of LAW and if found guilty, punished according to the LAW. The refugees that are being illegal detained by the Aust gov have broken no law, if they had they would have been prosecuted and either be deported or incarcerated in the prison system.

These people aren't leaving there countries like you pack the kingswood for the family trip to Bonny Doon, they're F**K** refugees you nitwit. They're fleeing the country most times under threat of they're lives with no doc of who they are and where they're from. Your right in one sense, it is possible for asylum seekers to be granted a visa from our overseas embassies; in countries where we have a representation. and that's also assuming the asylum seekers are able to access the embassy. However, we also have a responsibility to provide a safe haven for those refugees that arrive on our shores to claim asylum.

As for your last little comment...Saddam meeting Osama...exactly what extraordinary parallel are you drawing from this.

Two more things, Mark Latham is gonna s**t it in and the Bee Gees BLOW REAL F**K** HARD...whichever way you look at it!

[krinkle]

thundertaker wrote: The rightfull heir to the English throne is an australian citizen, so I've heard......

Mate, most aussies couldn't give a rats arse about the Queen. We should be a republic soon enough.

[krinkle]

Fist in the air wrote: Assylum seekers have broken no laws.

The better and cheaper alternative is to house assylum seekers in community housing centres while they await their visa processing, like what happens in New Zeland. Also allow them work rights and run a means tested system so if they are working they have to pay rent. This will radically reduce the cost of detention that is a huge waste of money and only brings hardship and oppresses some of the greatest victims in this world.

Spot on man.

[Golddave]

krinkle wrote: Golddave wrote: krinkle wrote: Golddave wrote: What a load of left wing, propaganda BS. I have never been to a young libs meeting. I watched the debate and I must say, Latham just sprouts crap that people want to hear. "We'll do more in this corner of the world... blah blah blah". We are not a bigger target for our participation in Iraq, I was deployed there first hand and I feel better that I was there when Saddam was ousted. The people were so happy that they were now free, the vast majority of them are friendly, beautiful people who loved the fact Australians were there to help out. Isn't that in our nation as Australians? To get in there and give a hand when it is needed? The housing market is starting to come down, interest rates are good and unemployment is extreamyl low, that is why the great australian dream is possible. As for you pass the ganja greenies, you have no idea, if you want howard and his government out, vote for Latham because the greens are not going to pull the kind of votes needed to make a huge difference. I do not see in the near future, the greens being a MAJOR party. Ie. Severly rivaling ALP and the coalition. Howard is not a human rights violator, it is our right as a country to protect our borders, just because we are an island continent does n't make us any different.
I am sick of this p/c crowd spewing on about this crap.

Howard is a human rights violator and should be tried in an international court. He has lock people up in the middle of the desert who are guilt of no crime. Assylum seekers are not our enemy, either are Aboriginies, Workers, Young People, Iraqis, Muslims or anyone that earns under 52,000 a year. Our real enemy is Howard he is trying to shift the crosshairs of his own head by blaming the powerless. The day will come, i hope on October 9, that we will be rid of this criminal despot.

As for locking people up in the desert, well they shouldn't be here in the first place, there are ways to apply for refugee status, legally, these people are illegally entering the country. I had a friend of mine who was responsible for boarding boats in the NT and searching for illegal substances, illegal immigrants etc. He told me stories about how he'd go aboard the junk and they would be like "we love australia" and when they were informed they weren't allowed into the country because they were entering illegally, the cries quickly became violent and anti australian, hope bin laden gets you etc. I do not want people like that in my country, we should be compassionate but not complacent, Australia, its people, their way of life, that should come first.

Fist in the air, I think it is absolutely ridiculous how you compare the budget with discriminating against people, I earn under $52000 a year, I am a worker and a young person, hell I have even dabbled in Islam but you do not see me, trying to jump on the band wagon and say, "help me I am hard done by".
The world is your oyster go and out there and make it, no one else is going to do it for you, being young, an immigrant, of another race, colour or creed is not an excuse, embrace who you are, love it and better yourself. Only then will you get ahead.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

- Saddam Hussein had been murdering and terrorizing the Iraqi people for over 30 years, at times with the support of the US administration.

- Iraq has been in possession on chemical weapons since the late 1970's. The US was well aware of this as they provided SAT Imagery for the Iraqi Army to use in chemical attacks against the Iranians.

- Iraq WAS a secular society, renowned for its hard-line approach to terrorist organisations.

- Iraq is not a nuclear power.

I'm struggling to understand on what basis you could be happy to participate in this illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. The fact that Saddam is gone is a good thing, but at what cost?

You are so hypocritical and righteous mate, on one hand you claim the Iraqi people (when within the confines of their own country) are worthy of our/your help, yet when they arrive as refugees on our shores (they're people who are fleeing the country from ethnic, religious or political persecution) you think we should lock them up in cages in the middle of the f***ing desert. You can't have it both ways champ. If your gonna be an scared little pric and support a government that wants to disregard the international conventions on human rights....DON'T EVER ATTEMPT TO USE THE WELFARE OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AS JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR ACTIONS, BECAUSE THAT IS JUST f***ing LAUGHABLE!!

Obviously be it right or wrong the events of September 11 accelerated a definate and defiant stance against Saddam Hussein. It should have been done much earlier, they had the oppurtunity in the first gulf war to keep rolling in past Basra rd but they didn't. I believe that was a mistake. I was not part of the invasion of Iraq, by the time I got there most of that was being mopped up, I was part of the occupying force, not the invading force, I would like to make that clear however I do not think I have to justify myself to you because I am a patriot and proud to serve my country in any capacity that I believe in. You tend to forget these immigrants are "ILLEGALLY" entering the country. Yes, it is unfortunate of the circumstances that allow this to occur, we should be sorting out the problems before they even get to this point. An asylum seeker has the right to seek refugee status in this country but what do you expect? to put them up at the hilton hotel? I remember when they allowed refugees to stay at Singleton Army barracks and they all bitched and whinged. It was good enough for my uncle before he went over to vietnam. Enough is enough, if you don't do things the right way, its the high way, bottom F**K** line. Why should we have to pay because others are neglecting their responsibilities? I believe we should help them, I am not heartless but at the same time, there are right and wrong ways to go about things. Australia is not alone with its immigration policies. There is overwealming evidence that Iraq was sympathtic to terroist causes. Bin Laden has met with Saddam in the past, there is an old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Do the maths.

NO! Not obviously anything. The events of Sep 11 had no connection to Iraq or Saddam Hussein. None have ever been proven and there is no overwhelming evidence to prove that Iraq had connections to any terrorist orginisation whatsoever. Where is your proof?? If it is so damning and you have it all....let's here it then, blow by blow.

Refugees are not illegal immigrants, they're asylum seekers. An illegal immigrant is someone who is attempting to violate a countries immigration law by entering said country illegally....kinda makes you wonder how they got the name? Now, when these filthy rotten criminals break this rather fundamental LAW of all sovereign nations, they are put before a court of LAW and if found guilty, punished according to the LAW. The refugees that are being illegal detained by the Aust gov have broken no law, if they had they would have been prosecuted and either be deported or incarcerated in the prison system.

These people aren't leaving there countries like you pack the kingswood for the family trip to Bonny Doon, they're F**K** refugees you nitwit. They're fleeing the country most times under threat of they're lives with no doc of who they are and where they're from. Your right in one sense, it is possible for asylum seekers to be granted a visa from our overseas embassies; in countries where we have a representation. and that's also assuming the asylum seekers are able to access the embassy. However, we also have a responsibility to provide a safe haven for those refugees that arrive on our shores to claim asylum.

As for your last little comment...Saddam meeting Osama...exactly what extraordinary parallel are you drawing from this.

Two more things, Mark Latham is gonna s**t it in and the Bee Gees BLOW REAL F**K** HARD...whichever way you look at it!

I never said that there was a direct connection between Iraq and Sept 11.
What I said was that this probably gave bush a better oppurtunity to remove Saddam which either way you look at it had to be done. There were Al Queda training camps in Iraq, money was exchanged between the Bin Laiden group and the Iraqi goverment. This is not the point we are arguing. Obviously Al Queda is a terror group made up of many nationalities, there are Iraqis amongst this but also sudanese, jordanians, sryians, saudi arabians etc.

To the arguement at hand, you have completely contridicted yourself. True there are people who are escaping persecution, but there are a lot that are not. The refugees are entering the country illegally as you have admitted. They are still entering the country illegally even if they are running away from something, they still need permission to enter our country, WE HAVE A RIGHT TO CONTROL OUR BORDERS. I do agree that by a case by case basis asylum can be granted which I believe is happening. As for the desert camps you go on about, I have friends that have worked at Woomera, the detainees get food, clean sheets, looked after, they can even get welfare which sadly thousands of AUSTRALIANS are living worse off. Besides it is better then the hell they ran away from, they should be processed there as quickly as possible and either deported if they do not have skills benefical to Australia or intergrated into society by becoming an Australian citizen and swearing allegiance to our nation.
I do not agree that we "have a responsibility" to ALL aslyum seekers, some want to hurt us, others do not need to flee their home lands in the first place and others more want to become a welfare burden on our society. Those that are persecuted and who do not pose a threat to us should be helped. However I believe the current circumstances ie detention centres are adequate in some ways but not others, I believe accomodation wise it is sufficant. The refugees should be taught and expected to have adequate english speaking, reading and writting skills before being released. They should be taught australian culture and customs and while maintaining their own language and culture is vastly important, they should make an effort to fit in with our society.

Another alternative would be raising a foreign legion and have refugees do five years service in either a military or a land army to show their love for their new country. They would be given land and a house in return, health care and citizenship. They would also develop a sense of pride about being Australian. That is just a thought, I know u are going to go off, because of your marxist beliefs but i thought I would chuck that red herring in. We are not NZ thank christ, we need to develop ideas that WILL work. By the way I drive a HSV, not a kingswood. Just cause you cruise around woodridge in your galant.

[Golddave]

krinkle wrote: Golddave wrote: krinkle wrote: Golddave wrote: What a load of left wing, propaganda BS. I have never been to a young libs meeting. I watched the debate and I must say, Latham just sprouts crap that people want to hear. "We'll do more in this corner of the world... blah blah blah". We are not a bigger target for our participation in Iraq, I was deployed there first hand and I feel better that I was there when Saddam was ousted. The people were so happy that they were now free, the vast majority of them are friendly, beautiful people who loved the fact Australians were there to help out. Isn't that in our nation as Australians? To get in there and give a hand when it is needed? The housing market is starting to come down, interest rates are good and unemployment is extreamyl low, that is why the great australian dream is possible. As for you pass the ganja greenies, you have no idea, if you want howard and his government out, vote for Latham because the greens are not going to pull the kind of votes needed to make a huge difference. I do not see in the near future, the greens being a MAJOR party. Ie. Severly rivaling ALP and the coalition. Howard is not a human rights violator, it is our right as a country to protect our borders, just because we are an island continent does n't make us any different.
I am sick of this p/c crowd spewing on about this crap.

Howard is a human rights violator and should be tried in an international court. He has lock people up in the middle of the desert who are guilt of no crime. Assylum seekers are not our enemy, either are Aboriginies, Workers, Young People, Iraqis, Muslims or anyone that earns under 52,000 a year. Our real enemy is Howard he is trying to shift the crosshairs of his own head by blaming the powerless. The day will come, i hope on October 9, that we will be rid of this criminal despot.

As for locking people up in the desert, well they shouldn't be here in the first place, there are ways to apply for refugee status, legally, these people are illegally entering the country. I had a friend of mine who was responsible for boarding boats in the NT and searching for illegal substances, illegal immigrants etc. He told me stories about how he'd go aboard the junk and they would be like "we love australia" and when they were informed they weren't allowed into the country because they were entering illegally, the cries quickly became violent and anti australian, hope bin laden gets you etc. I do not want people like that in my country, we should be compassionate but not complacent, Australia, its people, their way of life, that should come first.

Fist in the air, I think it is absolutely ridiculous how you compare the budget with discriminating against people, I earn under $52000 a year, I am a worker and a young person, hell I have even dabbled in Islam but you do not see me, trying to jump on the band wagon and say, "help me I am hard done by".
The world is your oyster go and out there and make it, no one else is going to do it for you, being young, an immigrant, of another race, colour or creed is not an excuse, embrace who you are, love it and better yourself. Only then will you get ahead.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

- Saddam Hussein had been murdering and terrorizing the Iraqi people for over 30 years, at times with the support of the US administration.

- Iraq has been in possession on chemical weapons since the late 1970's. The US was well aware of this as they provided SAT Imagery for the Iraqi Army to use in chemical attacks against the Iranians.

- Iraq WAS a secular society, renowned for its hard-line approach to terrorist organisations.

- Iraq is not a nuclear power.

I'm struggling to understand on what basis you could be happy to participate in this illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. The fact that Saddam is gone is a good thing, but at what cost?

You are so hypocritical and righteous mate, on one hand you claim the Iraqi people (when within the confines of their own country) are worthy of our/your help, yet when they arrive as refugees on our shores (they're people who are fleeing the country from ethnic, religious or political persecution) you think we should lock them up in cages in the middle of the f***ing desert. You can't have it both ways champ. If your gonna be an scared little pric and support a government that wants to disregard the international conventions on human rights....DON'T EVER ATTEMPT TO USE THE WELFARE OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AS JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR ACTIONS, BECAUSE THAT IS JUST f***ing LAUGHABLE!!

Obviously be it right or wrong the events of September 11 accelerated a definate and defiant stance against Saddam Hussein. It should have been done much earlier, they had the oppurtunity in the first gulf war to keep rolling in past Basra rd but they didn't. I believe that was a mistake. I was not part of the invasion of Iraq, by the time I got there most of that was being mopped up, I was part of the occupying force, not the invading force, I would like to make that clear however I do not think I have to justify myself to you because I am a patriot and proud to serve my country in any capacity that I believe in. You tend to forget these immigrants are "ILLEGALLY" entering the country. Yes, it is unfortunate of the circumstances that allow this to occur, we should be sorting out the problems before they even get to this point. An asylum seeker has the right to seek refugee status in this country but what do you expect? to put them up at the hilton hotel? I remember when they allowed refugees to stay at Singleton Army barracks and they all bitched and whinged. It was good enough for my uncle before he went over to vietnam. Enough is enough, if you don't do things the right way, its the high way, bottom F**K** line. Why should we have to pay because others are neglecting their responsibilities? I believe we should help them, I am not heartless but at the same time, there are right and wrong ways to go about things. Australia is not alone with its immigration policies. There is overwealming evidence that Iraq was sympathtic to terroist causes. Bin Laden has met with Saddam in the past, there is an old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Do the maths.

NO! Not obviously anything. The events of Sep 11 had no connection to Iraq or Saddam Hussein. None have ever been proven and there is no overwhelming evidence to prove that Iraq had connections to any terrorist orginisation whatsoever. Where is your proof?? If it is so damning and you have it all....let's here it then, blow by blow.

Refugees are not illegal immigrants, they're asylum seekers. An illegal immigrant is someone who is attempting to violate a countries immigration law by entering said country illegally....kinda makes you wonder how they got the name? Now, when these filthy rotten criminals break this rather fundamental LAW of all sovereign nations, they are put before a court of LAW and if found guilty, punished according to the LAW. The refugees that are being illegal detained by the Aust gov have broken no law, if they had they would have been prosecuted and either be deported or incarcerated in the prison system.

These people aren't leaving there countries like you pack the kingswood for the family trip to Bonny Doon, they're F**K** refugees you nitwit. They're fleeing the country most times under threat of they're lives with no doc of who they are and where they're from. Your right in one sense, it is possible for asylum seekers to be granted a visa from our overseas embassies; in countries where we have a representation. and that's also assuming the asylum seekers are able to access the embassy. However, we also have a responsibility to provide a safe haven for those refugees that arrive on our shores to claim asylum.

As for your last little comment...Saddam meeting Osama...exactly what extraordinary parallel are you drawing from this.

Two more things, Mark Latham is gonna s**t it in and the Bee Gees BLOW REAL F**K** HARD...whichever way you look at it!

I never said that there was a direct connection between Iraq and Sept 11.
What I said was that this probably gave bush a better oppurtunity to remove Saddam which either way you look at it had to be done. There were Al Queda training camps in Iraq, money was exchanged between the Bin Laiden group and the Iraqi goverment. This is not the point we are arguing. Obviously Al Queda is a terror group made up of many nationalities, there are Iraqis amongst this but also sudanese, jordanians, sryians, saudi arabians etc.

To the arguement at hand, you have completely contridicted yourself. True there are people who are escaping persecution, but there are a lot that are not. The refugees are entering the country illegally as you have admitted. They are still entering the country illegally even if they are running away from something, they still need permission to enter our country, WE HAVE A RIGHT TO CONTROL OUR BORDERS. I do agree that by a case by case basis asylum can be granted which I believe is happening. As for the desert camps you go on about, I have friends that have worked at Woomera, the detainees get food, clean sheets, looked after, they can even get welfare which sadly thousands of AUSTRALIANS are living worse off. Besides it is better then the hell they ran away from, they should be processed there as quickly as possible and either deported if they do not have skills benefical to Australia or intergrated into society by becoming an Australian citizen and swearing allegiance to our nation.
I do not agree that we "have a responsibility" to ALL aslyum seekers, some want to hurt us, others do not need to flee their home lands in the first place and others more want to become a welfare burden on our society. Those that are persecuted and who do not pose a threat to us should be helped. However I believe the current circumstances ie detention centres are adequate in some ways but not others, I believe accomodation wise it is sufficant. The refugees should be taught and expected to have adequate english speaking, reading and writting skills before being released. They should be taught australian culture and customs and while maintaining their own language and culture is vastly important, they should make an effort to fit in with our society.

Another alternative would be raising a foreign legion and have refugees do five years service in either a military or a land army to show their love for their new country. They would be given land and a house in return, health care and citizenship. They would also develop a sense of pride about being Australian. That is just a thought, I know u are going to go off, because of your marxist beliefs but i thought I would chuck that red herring in. We are not NZ thank christ, we need to develop ideas that WILL work. By the way I drive a HSV, not a kingswood. Just cause you cruise around woodridge in your galant. Bee Gees do not blow, they have had more hits then marcey mark or whoever you listen to. Also if Latham wins and I believe it is possible, you bought it on yourself. Be careful what u wish for.

[thundertaker]

It's not like Aussies and New Zealanders are short of space, Britain is heavily over-crowded and we're still taking 'asylum'-seekers by the score.......

[Fist in the air]

Forcing people to serve in the military, people who are often escaping from re-victimisamtion is facisim with no regards for human rights.

People should be encouraged to learn the language of the country they live in, most do and if not their kids do. This is not somthing you can force onto people.

If Wommera is so great why in the middle of the Desert. I been to Wommera to and seen Assylum seekers water cannoned, not a nice place.

Whats so wrong with my earlier post re: Alternative models?

[Golddave]

Fist in the air wrote: Forcing people to serve in the military, people who are often escaping from re-victimisamtion is facisim with no regards for human rights.

People should be encouraged to learn the language of the country they live in, most do and if not their kids do. This is not somthing you can force onto people.

If Wommera is so great why in the middle of the Desert. I been to Wommera to and seen Assylum seekers water cannoned, not a nice place.

Whats so wrong with my earlier post re: Alternative models?

This is Australia, if people aren't willing to learn english to a satisfactory level then they can get out. People need to start respecting what it is to be an Australian citizen, we have many rights including the right to leave, if they don't like it, they can exercise that right and piss off. The water cannon is used for rioting refugees, what is the alternative? rubber bullets which kill? I think not. Besides a nice soak on a hot windy day in the desert would be nice I would think. What do you want to do? move them into the hilton adelaide at tax payers expense? It is already costing too much to keep these criminals, if there is a genuine case for them being there then help them but I believe it should be investigated on a case by case basis. We do not want people in this country who are going to affect our way of life or who are not going to contribute to our society or who pose a potential threat to us, I offered the land army as an alternative as well which is basically working the land to produce crops. The immigrants would be helping the economy and also provide for themselves and be able to establish some wealth. I think we can force making people speak english because they have to respect that they are seeking a better life and want to intergrate into OUR society.

[Fist in the air]

What makes english so much a superior language?
We should all be made to learn a Indigenous (Aboriginal) dialect does that sound fair...

Does to me and we should all be forced to adopt Indigineous culture....

Our society is not white and english speaking. Where i live around 52% of people were born overseas.

Not the Hilton hotel just a basic housing unit. And thats the alternative to the water cannon.

A water Cannon pushed someone with such great force it breaks bones and can cause death through brain injury if one gets thrown against an object by its force.

These water cannons are not hoses. THey are vehicals as big as cars that drive around like tanks and pump water out of a nozzle thats diameter over a metre.

This is no way to treat people, there is no humanity in Howard and his policies.

[krinkle]

Golddave wrote: krinkle wrote: Golddave wrote: krinkle wrote: Golddave wrote: What a load of left wing, propaganda BS. I have never been to a young libs meeting. I watched the debate and I must say, Latham just sprouts crap that people want to hear. "We'll do more in this corner of the world... blah blah blah". We are not a bigger target for our participation in Iraq, I was deployed there first hand and I feel better that I was there when Saddam was ousted. The people were so happy that they were now free, the vast majority of them are friendly, beautiful people who loved the fact Australians were there to help out. Isn't that in our nation as Australians? To get in there and give a hand when it is needed? The housing market is starting to come down, interest rates are good and unemployment is extreamyl low, that is why the great australian dream is possible. As for you pass the ganja greenies, you have no idea, if you want howard and his government out, vote for Latham because the greens are not going to pull the kind of votes needed to make a huge difference. I do not see in the near future, the greens being a MAJOR party. Ie. Severly rivaling ALP and the coalition. Howard is not a human rights violator, it is our right as a country to protect our borders, just because we are an island continent does n't make us any different.
I am sick of this p/c crowd spewing on about this crap.

Howard is a human rights violator and should be tried in an international court. He has lock people up in the middle of the desert who are guilt of no crime. Assylum seekers are not our enemy, either are Aboriginies, Workers, Young People, Iraqis, Muslims or anyone that earns under 52,000 a year. Our real enemy is Howard he is trying to shift the crosshairs of his own head by blaming the powerless. The day will come, i hope on October 9, that we will be rid of this criminal despot.

As for locking people up in the desert, well they shouldn't be here in the first place, there are ways to apply for refugee status, legally, these people are illegally entering the country. I had a friend of mine who was responsible for boarding boats in the NT and searching for illegal substances, illegal immigrants etc. He told me stories about how he'd go aboard the junk and they would be like "we love australia" and when they were informed they weren't allowed into the country because they were entering illegally, the cries quickly became violent and anti australian, hope bin laden gets you etc. I do not want people like that in my country, we should be compassionate but not complacent, Australia, its people, their way of life, that should come first.

Fist in the air, I think it is absolutely ridiculous how you compare the budget with discriminating against people, I earn under $52000 a year, I am a worker and a young person, hell I have even dabbled in Islam but you do not see me, trying to jump on the band wagon and say, "help me I am hard done by".
The world is your oyster go and out there and make it, no one else is going to do it for you, being young, an immigrant, of another race, colour or creed is not an excuse, embrace who you are, love it and better yourself. Only then will you get ahead.
You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink.

- Saddam Hussein had been murdering and terrorizing the Iraqi people for over 30 years, at times with the support of the US administration.

- Iraq has been in possession on chemical weapons since the late 1970's. The US was well aware of this as they provided SAT Imagery for the Iraqi Army to use in chemical attacks against the Iranians.

- Iraq WAS a secular society, renowned for its hard-line approach to terrorist organisations.

- Iraq is not a nuclear power.

I'm struggling to understand on what basis you could be happy to participate in this illegal invasion of a sovereign nation. The fact that Saddam is gone is a good thing, but at what cost?

You are so hypocritical and righteous mate, on one hand you claim the Iraqi people (when within the confines of their own country) are worthy of our/your help, yet when they arrive as refugees on our shores (they're people who are fleeing the country from ethnic, religious or political persecution) you think we should lock them up in cages in the middle of the f***ing desert. You can't have it both ways champ. If your gonna be an scared little pric and support a government that wants to disregard the international conventions on human rights....DON'T EVER ATTEMPT TO USE THE WELFARE OF ANOTHER HUMAN BEING AS JUSTIFICATION FOR YOUR ACTIONS, BECAUSE THAT IS JUST f***ing LAUGHABLE!!

Obviously be it right or wrong the events of September 11 accelerated a definate and defiant stance against Saddam Hussein. It should have been done much earlier, they had the oppurtunity in the first gulf war to keep rolling in past Basra rd but they didn't. I believe that was a mistake. I was not part of the invasion of Iraq, by the time I got there most of that was being mopped up, I was part of the occupying force, not the invading force, I would like to make that clear however I do not think I have to justify myself to you because I am a patriot and proud to serve my country in any capacity that I believe in. You tend to forget these immigrants are "ILLEGALLY" entering the country. Yes, it is unfortunate of the circumstances that allow this to occur, we should be sorting out the problems before they even get to this point. An asylum seeker has the right to seek refugee status in this country but what do you expect? to put them up at the hilton hotel? I remember when they allowed refugees to stay at Singleton Army barracks and they all bitched and whinged. It was good enough for my uncle before he went over to vietnam. Enough is enough, if you don't do things the right way, its the high way, bottom F**K** line. Why should we have to pay because others are neglecting their responsibilities? I believe we should help them, I am not heartless but at the same time, there are right and wrong ways to go about things. Australia is not alone with its immigration policies. There is overwealming evidence that Iraq was sympathtic to terroist causes. Bin Laden has met with Saddam in the past, there is an old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Do the maths.

NO! Not obviously anything. The events of Sep 11 had no connection to Iraq or Saddam Hussein. None have ever been proven and there is no overwhelming evidence to prove that Iraq had connections to any terrorist orginisation whatsoever. Where is your proof?? If it is so damning and you have it all....let's here it then, blow by blow.

Refugees are not illegal immigrants, they're asylum seekers. An illegal immigrant is someone who is attempting to violate a countries immigration law by entering said country illegally....kinda makes you wonder how they got the name? Now, when these filthy rotten criminals break this rather fundamental LAW of all sovereign nations, they are put before a court of LAW and if found guilty, punished according to the LAW. The refugees that are being illegal detained by the Aust gov have broken no law, if they had they would have been prosecuted and either be deported or incarcerated in the prison system.

These people aren't leaving there countries like you pack the kingswood for the family trip to Bonny Doon, they're F**K** refugees you nitwit. They're fleeing the country most times under threat of they're lives with no doc of who they are and where they're from. Your right in one sense, it is possible for asylum seekers to be granted a visa from our overseas embassies; in countries where we have a representation. and that's also assuming the asylum seekers are able to access the embassy. However, we also have a responsibility to provide a safe haven for those refugees that arrive on our shores to claim asylum.

As for your last little comment...Saddam meeting Osama...exactly what extraordinary parallel are you drawing from this.

Two more things, Mark Latham is gonna s**t it in and the Bee Gees BLOW REAL F**K** HARD...whichever way you look at it!

I never said that there was a direct connection between Iraq and Sept 11.
What I said was that this probably gave bush a better oppurtunity to remove Saddam which either way you look at it had to be done. There were Al Queda training camps in Iraq, money was exchanged between the Bin Laiden group and the Iraqi goverment. This is not the point we are arguing. Obviously Al Queda is a terror group made up of many nationalities, there are Iraqis amongst this but also sudanese, jordanians, sryians, saudi arabians etc.

To the arguement at hand, you have completely contridicted yourself. True there are people who are escaping persecution, but there are a lot that are not. The refugees are entering the country illegally as you have admitted. They are still entering the country illegally even if they are running away from something, they still need permission to enter our country, WE HAVE A RIGHT TO CONTROL OUR BORDERS. I do agree that by a case by case basis asylum can be granted which I believe is happening. As for the desert camps you go on about, I have friends that have worked at Woomera, the detainees get food, clean sheets, looked after, they can even get welfare which sadly thousands of AUSTRALIANS are living worse off. Besides it is better then the hell they ran away from, they should be processed there as quickly as possible and either deported if they do not have skills benefical to Australia or intergrated into society by becoming an Australian citizen and swearing allegiance to our nation.
I do not agree that we "have a responsibility" to ALL aslyum seekers, some want to hurt us, others do not need to flee their home lands in the first place and others more want to become a welfare burden on our society. Those that are persecuted and who do not pose a threat to us should be helped. However I believe the current circumstances ie detention centres are adequate in some ways but not others, I believe accomodation wise it is sufficant. The refugees should be taught and expected to have adequate english speaking, reading and writting skills before being released. They should be taught australian culture and customs and while maintaining their own language and culture is vastly important, they should make an effort to fit in with our society.

Another alternative would be raising a foreign legion and have refugees do five years service in either a military or a land army to show their love for their new country. They would be given land and a house in return, health care and citizenship. They would also develop a sense of pride about being Australian. That is just a thought, I know u are going to go off, because of your marxist beliefs but i thought I would chuck that red herring in. We are not NZ thank christ, we need to develop ideas that WILL work. By the way I drive a HSV, not a kingswood. Just cause you cruise around woodridge in your galant. Bee Gees do not blow, they have had more hits then marcey mark or whoever you listen to. Also if Latham wins and I believe it is possible, you bought it on yourself. Be careful what u wish for.

Be it a direct or indirect connection, any one at all is false. There is no credible evidence to make even the slightest of link between Iraq/Saddam and al Qaida, Bin Laden or terrorism broadly. If you have some, use it to back your allegations and also forward it to the US State Dept, reckon they would love to hear it. Your claims about the Bin Laden Group are irrelevant, go check who else BLG has had dealings with...there a construction firm, what's your point?

Yes we do have a right to control our borders, a right which we continue to exercise unless I’m mistaken. By arriving on Australian shores and declaring them self a refugee seeking asylum, a person has broken no law. As I have said above, if they had they would be charged. The government’s reasoning for detaining these people is to verify there identity and the legitimacy of there claims, the fact that this takes longer than a matter a weeks is not acceptable. About 80% of these people are eventually found to be refugees and allowed to stay in Australia. That is an awfully high percentage of innocent people that are having fundamental human rights violated, in some cases for a period of years. There are much more humane and acceptable ways of dealing with this problem…see fist for one.

Exactly what features of Australian culture and customs would you like these people to have to learn? I’m just curious as to what it means for you to be an Aussie.

[krinkle]

Golddave wrote: Fist in the air wrote: Forcing people to serve in the military, people who are often escaping from re-victimisamtion is facisim with no regards for human rights.

People should be encouraged to learn the language of the country they live in, most do and if not their kids do. This is not somthing you can force onto people.

If Wommera is so great why in the middle of the Desert. I been to Wommera to and seen Assylum seekers water cannoned, not a nice place.

Whats so wrong with my earlier post re: Alternative models?

This is Australia, if people aren't willing to learn english to a satisfactory level then they can get out. People need to start respecting what it is to be an Australian citizen, we have many rights including the right to leave, if they don't like it, they can exercise that right and piss off. The water cannon is used for rioting refugees, what is the alternative? rubber bullets which kill? I think not. Besides a nice soak on a hot windy day in the desert would be nice I would think. What do you want to do? move them into the hilton adelaide at tax payers expense? It is already costing too much to keep these criminals, if there is a genuine case for them being there then help them but I believe it should be investigated on a case by case basis. We do not want people in this country who are going to affect our way of life or who are not going to contribute to our society or who pose a potential threat to us, I offered the land army as an alternative as well which is basically working the land to produce crops. The immigrants would be helping the economy and also provide for themselves and be able to establish some wealth. I think we can force making people speak english because they have to respect that they are seeking a better life and want to intergrate into OUR society.

Why are you so concerned with making sure there English is up to scratch? I can’t see you or anyone you know wanting to talk to them in the near future. "WE REFUGEES HAVE REQUEST - FROM AUSTRALIAN PEOPLE FOR HELP". This was what the refugees were protesting for, to draw attention to their unjust detention. If I was locked up for no reason you can bet I’d be making some racket too. We both agree it’s expensive, so why are you supporting mandatory detention? You can’t force people to do squat! We live in a multicultural society where English is the main language, but people communicate on many different levels. Post war Australia was built by the hard work of Italian and Greek immigrants who still live here to this day speaking not one word of English. Should these people be shipped off as well?

[maxtsu]

Fist in the air wrote: What makes english so much a superior language?
We should all be made to learn a Indigenous (Aboriginal) dialect does that sound fair...

Does to me and we should all be forced to adopt Indigineous culture....

Our society is not white and english speaking. Where i live around 52% of people were born overseas.

So true.
If people were to speak "real" "original" Aussie, then it would be one of the indigenous languages.