Political Crossfire Forums

[GermanMax]

flamboyant wrote: But hey, it's easy to sit on the sidelines of history and laugh and complain about every mistake America made IN WINNING THE COLD WAR.

Not every mistake. Only those who cost 58,000 brave American service men and women their lives. :wink:

[flamboyant]

Quote: What I am critizicing is that there is no need for America to always put its nose into other countries business. There, however, is a need for America to do its homework and make sure the results of war are not as disastrous as in Vietnam or Iraq. Also, America has primarily its own interest at heart. Iraq wasn't invaded because of evil Saddam, after all he didn't seem to be that evil when Donald went on a date with him...

Every country has its own interests at heart, don't fool yourself by thinking otherwise.

That being said, yes you do raise some good points about the perils of American intervention, American arrogance and going to war without a thorough understanding of the enemy - Vietnam was a disaster and yes Iraq is hell on Earth right now. One thing about Iraq, however, is that many nations had far bloodier revolutions and far shakier beginnings and survived it all for the benefit of countless generations to come. America's own revolution probably looked like it had even less chance of surviving as the New Iraq does right now.

I cannot deny any of the points you're making about Vietnam or Iraq, although the Korean point is way off base, but what really pains me is to see a German talk about how a true political change only occurs from within as if you forgot how we installed your own Democracy or seeing a German talk about American mistakes in the Cold War as if you have no idea how greatly you benefited from America winning that Cold War.

[GermanMax]

flamboyant wrote: Quote: What I am critizicing is that there is no need for America to always put its nose into other countries business. There, however, is a need for America to do its homework and make sure the results of war are not as disastrous as in Vietnam or Iraq. Also, America has primarily its own interest at heart. Iraq wasn't invaded because of evil Saddam, after all he didn't seem to be that evil when Donald went on a date with him...

Every country has its own interests at heart, don't fool yourself by thinking otherwise.

That being said, yes you do raise some good points about the perils of American intervention, American arrogance and going to war without a thorough understanding of the enemy - Vietnam was a disaster and yes Iraq is hell on Earth right now. One thing about Iraq, however, is that many nations had far bloodier revolutions and far shakier beginnings and survived it all for the benefit of countless generations to come. America's own revolution probably looked like it had even less chance of surviving as the New Iraq does right now.

I cannot deny any of the points you're making about Vietnam or Iraq, although the Korean point is way off base, but what really pains me is to see a German talk about how a true political change only occurs from within as if you forgot how we installed your own Democracy or seeing a German talk about American mistakes in the Cold War as if you have no idea how greatly you benefited from America winning that Cold War.

Don't let it pain you. The criticism in my head doesn't contradict the thankfulnes in my heart. :wink:
But that doesn't mean that we have to agree with everything America does. I am living in this country. It is a great place, wondeful and hospitable people, there aren't many bad things I could say about domestic America. However, when it comes to the political process and criticizing our leaders I can't but wonder if Jefferson woul have been labeled unpatriotic had he lived in these, our times...

[flamboyant]

I can hear you, and it's good to hear where you're coming from. I could probably comeback with a good quote from Jefferson, too, but to put it in my own words - dissent is a beautiful thing.

I do tend to be a bit on the "love it or leave it" side, but maybe more correctly I'd say "love it or change it."

[Dookiestix]

flamboyant wrote: Quote: What I am critizicing is that there is no need for America to always put its nose into other countries business. There, however, is a need for America to do its homework and make sure the results of war are not as disastrous as in Vietnam or Iraq. Also, America has primarily its own interest at heart. Iraq wasn't invaded because of evil Saddam, after all he didn't seem to be that evil when Donald went on a date with him...

Every country has its own interests at heart, don't fool yourself by thinking otherwise.

That being said, yes you do raise some good points about the perils of American intervention, American arrogance and going to war without a thorough understanding of the enemy - Vietnam was a disaster and yes Iraq is hell on Earth right now. One thing about Iraq, however, is that many nations had far bloodier revolutions and far shakier beginnings and survived it all for the benefit of countless generations to come. America's own revolution probably looked like it had even less chance of surviving as the New Iraq does right now.

I cannot deny any of the points you're making about Vietnam or Iraq, although the Korean point is way off base, but what really pains me is to see a German talk about how a true political change only occurs from within as if you forgot how we installed your own Democracy or seeing a German talk about American mistakes in the Cold War as if you have no idea how greatly you benefited from America winning that Cold War.
Once again, how exactly did we "install" a democracy in a completely decimated country? The Germans, I believe, had it with fascism, for they saw the end results of that failed political system, and longed for liberties and freedom. We may have bombed the living crap out of Germany, but they were probably ready for change as they saw their fascist state coming to an inevitable end.

The reason I ask this is the attempted presumed relationship between the claim that we "installed" democracy in Germany and what we're doing currently in Iraq, in which those such are yourself are claiming the same thing. American intervention is by no means effective in getting regimes to change, and the assumption that we can simply invade a country and "install" democracy is extremely shortsighted, IMHO.

I think the biggest mistake here is to assume that Iraq is going through some type of "revolution." Vietnam experienced a bloody revolution that led to communism in that country, and at a loss of over 58,000 American troops. Iraq seems headed towards a theocracy rather than a democracy, and it is happening with an occupying force in their country (U.S.). Whether that should be labeled as a "revolution" is a bit subjective, as all that sectarian violence was sparked by our invasion and the subsequent power vacuum that ensued.

I certainly understand where GermanMax is coming from, and I would agree. Afterall, Bush himself was saying the same things during the 2000 campaign, only to completely contradict everything he presumably believed in by taking us down his pre-emptive path of invading Iraq.

It is this fundamental change in philosophy that is the most striking. Those who argue through historical references need to see what Bush was saying in 2000, and what he has done in regards to Iraq.

[Timmytour]

I've just finished burning all those history books that gave Britain and other countries some of the credit for what happened in Germany after the 2WW

:(

Oh how could I ever have been so gullible to fall for that. why didn't I realise it was the Americans, the glorious Americans and only the wonderful Americans who did it all

:bnghd:

[JoeBen81]

Timmytour wrote: I've just finished burning all those history books that gave Britain and other countries some of the credit for what happened in Germany after the 2WW

:(

Oh how could I ever have been so gullible to fall for that. why didn't I realise it was the Americans, the glorious Americans and only the wonderful Americans who did it all

:bnghd:

Tell your friends...

[Gus]

Damn it only took 40+ years of failure after failure of imposed governments for a military General to figure out that it's not working. :-|