Political Crossfire Forums

[flamboyant]

The Ferryman wrote: Judge is full of kahkah. Just another secular-progressive judge trying to legislate from the bench.

I can't stand judges who try to legislate from the bench any more than it sounds like you do, but I can actually see this from a strict constitutional perspective here - if your a blind citizen and there's a good chance you're a taxpayer, it's really a pittance for the government to put a couple dots on the money so you have the same right to identify your money just like everyone else.

I also think making wheelchair access and ramps mandatory is 100% within the constitution, so you and I might disagree on that one, too.

Again, put yourself in the shoes of someone who's in a wheelchair. Imagine a world where you can't even get into 90% of the stores out there. Sporting events, concerts, movies, sorry just stay home and watch it on television.

Normally, my gut instinct is leave it up to the markets to sort it out, but as that person in a wheelchair, you're really in too small of a minority to let the power of the consumer make its voice heard by businesses nationwide. In that case, I think it's perfectly reasonable to say it's the government's job to insure that these people are not discriminated against by having to be stuck in a country where you don't even have a way of getting in most stores. You can't see that as a discrimination issue? I mean, yes, that is going a little bit of an extra way to ensure there are ramps and extra-wide toilet stalls, but financially, it's peanuts, but just picture how well those government dollars would seem spent for the tax payer / citizen in a wheelchair.

The Comrade wrote: flamboyant wrote: I'm not sure I see the analogy between sex on tv as a slippery slope and blind people being able to properly identify money just the way you and I do.

I'm looking at your quote in your sig here:

Quote: Sick cultures show a complex of symptoms such as you have named...but a dying culture invariably exhibits personal rudeness. Bad manners. Lack of consideration for others in minor matters. A loss of politeness, of gentle manners, is more significant then a riot

Doesn't it seem the polite thing to do to make it so blind people have an easy way to identify their money?


no, it seems like a waste of money and time to fix something that isn't broke.

I should set you up some day to volunteer at a school for the blind.

[The Comrade]

flamboyant wrote:

I should set you up some day to volunteer at a school for the blind.


i've met plenty of blind people, thank you.

[CountryGuy]

The Comrade wrote: CountryGuy wrote:
Umm no - The law requires public buildings provide handicapped access. A person can build a ramp at their home, but couldn't force a business to supply a means of entry. They now have to, allowing the handicapped to be independent. In the case of the blind and money, either they rely on people to be honest in public, or have to have someone come with them.

there is already something that puts brail on money. it's a little plastic thing that fits on your keychain. why should the government spend millions of dollars to fix something that already has a solution?


CountryGuy wrote: Not so. I've seen people who work in the city: Take a bus / train from their home, get to their destination (most trains now provide braille maps, and synthesized vocal announcements of stops), work, then return home the same way. They are not dependent on people, but there are risks - such as with money.


you just stated above that they are dependent on others, and in a previous post you said they lackedi ndependence without this.

so which is it?

Cmon now, you're grasping at straws. YES, they can survive without the monetary change. By making the monetary change, you give them the freedom to buy things in stores without having to rely on others to count their money out for them.

You're concern is more about someone using this as a legal stepping stone, but that shouldn't be reason enough not to provide this simple solution.

[Kumar]

eXploiTeD wrote: It's not going to "change the face of American currency." They'll just put a few indented dots on the bill, allowing the blind to feel what bills they've received.

Anybody who opposes this is f****d. Of course the government should print money accessible to everyone...
Agreed.

[The Comrade]

CountryGuy wrote:

Cmon now, you're grasping at straws. YES, they can survive without the monetary change. By making the monetary change, you give them the freedom to buy things in stores without having to rely on others to count their money out for them.

oh jeez aren't their things you can buy that scan your money for you and magically tell you how much you have, in what amounts?

i'm shocked. i thought changing currency completely was the only solution.

and, what about money without the brail on it?

as with all currency, there is a mixture. so the blind will be dependent on someone to count their money anyways. or use a machine.

CountryGuy wrote:
You're concern is more about someone using this as a legal stepping stone, but that shouldn't be reason enough not to provide this simple solution.

that and the money it will cost to fix something that already has a solution.



millions of dollars is chump change but it doesn't need to be spent for nothing.

[flamboyant]

I've heard it said that you can judge a society by how it cares for its least advantaged. $9 million a year added to the U.S. treasury operating expenses just doesn't seem like too high a cost. You add a little bit of braille to the bills and it can even act as yet another counterfeiting deterrent.

[The Comrade]

flamboyant wrote: I've heard it said that you can judge a society by how it cares for its least advantaged. $9 million a year added to the U.S. treasury operating expenses just doesn't seem like to high a cost. You add a little bit of braille to the bills and it can even act as yet another counterfeiting deterrent.


there are machines that make brail for you that fit on your keychain. that's not much of a counterfeiting deterrent.

[flamboyant]

The Comrade wrote: flamboyant wrote: I've heard it said that you can judge a society by how it cares for its least advantaged. $9 million a year added to the U.S. treasury operating expenses just doesn't seem like to high a cost. You add a little bit of braille to the bills and it can even act as yet another counterfeiting deterrent.


there are machines that make brail for you that fit on your keychain. that's not much of a counterfeiting deterrent.

Okay, that may be so, but knowing how the government looks at the creation of every aspect of the currency as a way of thwarting counterfitters, it will be a "special kind" of braille. Okay, I'm kind of pulling that out my rear, but I'm sure as long as they're incorporating it, it won't be the easiest thing to duplicate, especially for some guy rolling sheets of money of his own printing press.

[The Comrade]

flamboyant wrote:
Okay, that may be so, but knowing how the government looks at the creation of every aspect of the currency as a way of thwarting counterfitters, it will be a "special kind" of braille. Okay, I'm kind of pulling that out my rear, but I'm sure as long as they're incorporating it, it won't be the easiest thing to duplicate, especially for some guy rolling sheets of money of his own printing press.


okay, so not the blind have to learn a different "language" so they can know what money they have.


and how many people, at a store let's say, are going to look at the bills and go "WAIT! these bumps are .0000000000003mm too wide. COUNTERFEITER!!!!"

i'm 100% that won't happen.

[CountryGuy]

The Comrade wrote: flamboyant wrote: I've heard it said that you can judge a society by how it cares for its least advantaged. $9 million a year added to the U.S. treasury operating expenses just doesn't seem like to high a cost. You add a little bit of braille to the bills and it can even act as yet another counterfeiting deterrent.


there are machines that make brail for you that fit on your keychain. that's not much of a counterfeiting deterrent.

And there were devices attached to wheelchairs that let them climb stairs. Doesn't make it the simplest or most effective solution. Or the one that provides the most inclusion into society.

Man, God help the blind person whose Braille-O-Matic runs out of batteries, or that leaves it home. Modifying the currency is the simplest and best solution for the long-term.

[The Ferryman]

The Comrade wrote: CountryGuy wrote:

Cmon now, you're grasping at straws. YES, they can survive without the monetary change. By making the monetary change, you give them the freedom to buy things in stores without having to rely on others to count their money out for them.

oh jeez aren't their things you can buy that scan your money for you and magically tell you how much you have, in what amounts?

i'm shocked. i thought changing currency completely was the only solution.

and, what about money without the brail on it?

as with all currency, there is a mixture. so the blind will be dependent on someone to count their money anyways. or use a machine.

CountryGuy wrote:
You're concern is more about someone using this as a legal stepping stone, but that shouldn't be reason enough not to provide this simple solution.

that and the money it will cost to fix something that already has a solution.



millions of dollars is chump change but it doesn't need to be spent for nothing.


Got to agree with Comrade on this. Is logical and makes sense. He doesn't sound to me like someone who would kick a crutch out from underneath a cripple.

[The Comrade]

CountryGuy wrote:

And there were devices attached to wheelchairs that let them climb stairs. Doesn't make it the simplest or most effective solution. Or the one that provides the most inclusion into society.

Man, God help the blind person whose Braille-O-Matic runs out of batteries, or that leaves it home. Modifying the currency is the simplest and best solution for the long-term.


yes because there is a limited number of batteries in the world.

http://www.independentliving.com/products.asp?dept=169&deptname=Check%20and%20Money%20Management



here's a professional one.

http://www.braillebookstore.com/view.php?T=Handheld+Braille+Labeler

here's an even smaller and cheaper one.


so, you could buy one of these and your life would be fine, or you could make the government spend millions of dollars to change it's currency so a small minority of people don't have to shell out 20 dollars to do it themselves.

[flamboyant]

The Comrade wrote: flamboyant wrote:
Okay, that may be so, but knowing how the government looks at the creation of every aspect of the currency as a way of thwarting counterfitters, it will be a "special kind" of braille. Okay, I'm kind of pulling that out my rear, but I'm sure as long as they're incorporating it, it won't be the easiest thing to duplicate, especially for some guy rolling sheets of money of his own printing press.


okay, so not the blind have to learn a different "language" so they can know what money they have.


and how many people, at a store let's say, are going to look at the bills and go "WAIT! these bumps are .0000000000003mm too wide. COUNTERFEITER!!!!"

i'm 100% that won't happen.

Maybe the anti-counterfeiting aspect of it wasn't the strongest argument, but I will tell you that for anyone interested in using the big printing presses they paid $100s of thousands of dollars for, this is going to be a real problem to try to get braille on each individual bill.

Quote: so, you could buy one of these and your life would be fine, or you could make the government spend millions of dollars to change it's currency so a small minority of people don't have to shell out 20 dollars to do it themselves.

I'd go with having the government make it accessible without people having the need to shell out $325.

The second link is to a braille labeller, BTW. I'm pretty sure a device like that isn't going to be able to make the same quality braille that the treasury would, but like I said, that's more of a distant second to the argument of the USGov making currency that all the citizens can identify.

[The Comrade]

flamboyant wrote:

Maybe the anti-counterfeiting aspect of it wasn't the strongest argument, but I will tell you that for anyone interested in using the big printing presses they paid $100s of thousands of dollars for, this is going to be a real problem to try to get braille on each individual bill.

there are devices, as i have presented above, that do it in seconds.



flamboyant wrote: I'd go with having the government make it accessible without people having the need to shell out $325.

or they could buy a super cheap one?

flamboyant wrote: The second link is to a braille labeller, BTW. I'm pretty sure a device like that isn't going to be able to make the same quality braille that the treasury would, but like I said, that's more of a distant second to the argument of the USGov making currency that all the citizens can identify.

braille is braille is braille.

and do you think someone would honestly use a bill so much that the braille would wear down, yet not spend it?

please. it would get spent before it lost it's "quality".

[CountryGuy]

The Comrade wrote: CountryGuy wrote:

And there were devices attached to wheelchairs that let them climb stairs. Doesn't make it the simplest or most effective solution. Or the one that provides the most inclusion into society.

Man, God help the blind person whose Braille-O-Matic runs out of batteries, or that leaves it home. Modifying the currency is the simplest and best solution for the long-term.


yes because there is a limited number of batteries in the world.

http://www.independentliving.com/products.asp?dept=169&deptname=Check%20and%20Money%20Management



here's a professional one.

http://www.braillebookstore.com/view.php?T=Handheld+Braille+Labeler

here's an even smaller and cheaper one.


so, you could buy one of these and your life would be fine, or you could make the government spend millions of dollars to change it's currency so a small minority of people don't have to shell out 20 dollars to do it themselves.

There are approximately 500,000 blind Americans. At a cost of $325 (which I'll assume doesn't cover shipping and handling), you're looking at $162.5 million dollars to supply these to every blind American person (not including shipping and handling). If you think the GOVERNMENT is going to get a discount on the cost... Then this program is apparently ready to make history. :wink:

As a government program, training guides will need to be supplied in multiple languages (I'm making an assumption that Braille is used in Spanish and other languages). So costs to factor in the creation of these guides (including distribution) also need to be included.

Also include the need to replace these products as they break / wear out. Yes, money wears out too -- But we already have to make that, whether we have these devices or not.

All in all, I think the more cost effective to just update our currency.

[The Comrade]

CountryGuy wrote:

There are approximately 500,000 blind Americans. At a cost of $325 (which I'll assume doesn't cover shipping and handling), you're looking at $162.5 million dollars to supply these to every blind American person (not including shipping and handling). If you think the GOVERNMENT is going to get a discount on the cost... Then this program is apparently ready to make history. :wink:

good job at using the most exspensive one!

did you notice that second link was selling one for twenty dollars?

CountryGuy wrote: As a government program, training guides will need to be supplied in multiple languages (I'm making an assumption that Braille is used in Spanish and other languages). So costs to factor in the creation of these guides (including distribution) also need to be included.

you just tacked on a couple hundred thousand more.

CountryGuy wrote: Also include the need to replace these products as they break / wear out. Yes, money wears out too -- But we already have to make that, whether we have these devices or not.

explain to me how all currency will have braille on it...

oh yeah, it won't. because money is always mixed and matched.

CountryGuy wrote: All in all, I think the more cost effective to just update our currency.

or let those that want braille on their money to buy a twenty dollar device.

[callous]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Disagree with this judge completely. There's nothing wrong with our money. The blind apparently have been doing fine with it so far... no need to change it.

Behold ye the fearsome army of the status quo. :lol:

[CountryGuy]

Fair enough. $20 x 500,000 blind Americans is $10 million - for the cheapest model. Not including costs for replacements / new blind citizens.

Currency would be phased, absolutely -- No different than what we have today with the new 5s, 10s, and 20s in circulation. Bills have about a 5-7 year life from what I remember in general, or we can accelerate it by doing what was done with the Euro rollout in Europe (limited time to use both, require that the money be exchanged at banks by a certain date).

The benefit there is, once you are done, you're DONE with your additional costs to the government. The devices would be a recurring cost.

[The Comrade]

CountryGuy wrote: Fair enough. $20 x 500,000 blind Americans is $10 million - for the cheapest model. Not including costs for replacements / new blind citizens.

Currency would be phased, absolutely -- No different than what we have today with the new 5s, 10s, and 20s in circulation. Bills have about a 5-7 year life from what I remember in general, or we can accelerate it by doing what was done with the Euro rollout in Europe (limited time to use both, require that the money be exchanged at banks by a certain date).

The benefit there is, once you are done, you're DONE with your additional costs to the government. The devices would be a recurring cost.

or the people that want one of these can buy one for 20 dollars.

[Medius]

The Comrade wrote: CountryGuy wrote:

The difference here is that the current money is impossible to use by the blind without some risk. Yes, when someone who is blind gets a stack of 20s they can bend a corner, etc., but who's to say they actually got 20s? Making a change to the currency enables the blind to know what they are getting day in and day out. Imagine having to trust every single teller / cashier / etc. to give you correct change!

There is a big difference between this and the word "God" on the bill.


they've been doing fine for centuries. why the need to change it now?

and there may be a different to you, but to some whiny person with a lawyer the two are completely linked.

Now is the first time they've gotten a ruling. I don't see a problem with putting a few dots on a bill. The judge didn't demand that all bills be recalled and replaced immediately, just that they incorporate this into their printing technique in the future.

This really isn't too much to ask. It is a simple change that should have been made long ago. The blind have to deal with a lot of things and worrying about whether they gave someone a dollar or a hundred dollars doesn't need to be one of those things.

Hell, they could just add a notch in the side of the bill and all it would take is fitting new cutting blades or modifying existing ones. This doesn't need to be an expensive endeavor.