Political Crossfire Forums

[Vulcidian]

Here is the link:

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061122/sc_nm/religion_turkey_evolution_dc


So, basically, in Turkey they are continuing the push to uproot evolution from schools. They are using propaganda created by Intelligent Design and Creationism advocates to further there cause.

I feel it is a sad day when the pseudo-intellectual arguments in America are beginning to be used to justify the destruction of science throughout the world. Especially among nations with fundamentalist Islamists, where it is needed the most.

It's time for the United States government to make a stand. Despite the feelings of the country overall, our government rallied to strike a huge blow to prejudice and racism in the 1960's.

I feel it's time the government laid down the law in the intelligent design and creationist debate.

Unless it infringes upon the rights of others, one cannot force another human being to believe something that is a matter of opinion. But evolution is not a matter of opinion. The exact mechanics of evolution are up for debate, but the theory itself is beyond contestation of any manner that current science can offer.

Intelligent Design and Creationism are fake sciences with little use to humanity at all. Their arguments are so vague, and the predictive qualities so useless that any truth in them is completely useless for applications.

If I were to say, the sun will come up tomorrow, and it does, that is somewhat of a theory. But if a scientist tells me the sun will come up because of the rotation of the earth about its axis which completes a revolution approximately every 24hrs...now that is something useful.

Intelligent design and creationism are insults to the nation's intelligence. Every minute our society allows another child to be corrupted by this nonsense and put on the path of being useless as a thinking individual is a tragedy.

In my opinion, allowing someone to discriminate against someone because their race might be inferior, is the same thing as allowing creationism and intelligent design the same status as Evolution.

Evolution is a theory just like Atomic theory. But we can make atomic bombs, and we can breed animals based upon desired qualities.

I think this nonsense must stop immediately.

How do the readers feel?

1. Do you feel Intelligent design is a theory with as much support and power of prediction as evolution?

2. Do you think it's a good thing that Christian fundamentalist propaganda is being used to tighten fundamental Islam's hold on the middle east?

3. Do you think Creationism is preying on the uneducated, and deserves the same fate as Jim Crow laws?

....I think you know how I feel...

[ontheyslay]

Creationsim is not science. There is no scientific basis for it. Teach it in a religious studies class, not a science class. I don't think creationism is preying on the uneducated, it's a way for religious fundamentalists to push their views onto people who may not agree with it.

[Vulcidian]

ontheyslay wrote: Creationsim is not science. There is no scientific basis for it. Teach it in a religious studies class, not a science class. I don't think creationism is preying on the uneducated, it's a way for religious fundamentalists to push their views onto people who may not agree with it.

I think that it does. Most scientists have been content to simply do their research. The average working American doesn't have time to take an in depth course in biology just to understand evolution.

I think creationists and intelligent design advocates go into churchs and out into the public and prey on these uneducated people.

The bottom line is the scientists need to draw the line because creationists and intelligent design advocates have no serious theory, so they can spend all their time shouting about it in the streets and trying to work it into school boards.

Modern biology simply cannot function without evolution and neither intelligent design or creationism provide theories with any predictive power or scientific meaning. It's nothing but unprovable theological rubbish.

The average citizen doesn't have time to work out the necessary arguments to defeat these door to door scam artists who think they're doing their god's bidding.

Somebody has to protect the citizens of the world from this scam. Lest we fall back into the middle ages. Education is part of the plan, but so is rethinking our definition of tolerance.

[ontheyslay]

Vulcidian wrote: ontheyslay wrote: Creationsim is not science. There is no scientific basis for it. Teach it in a religious studies class, not a science class. I don't think creationism is preying on the uneducated, it's a way for religious fundamentalists to push their views onto people who may not agree with it.

I think that it does. Most scientists have been content to simply do their research. The average working American doesn't have time to take an in depth course in biology just to understand evolution.

I think creationists and intelligent design advocates go into churchs and out into the public and prey on these uneducated people.

The bottom line is the scientists need to draw the line because creationists and intelligent design advocates have no serious theory, so they can spend all their time shouting about it in the streets and trying to work it into school boards.

Modern biology simply cannot function without evolution and neither intelligent design or creationism provide theories with any predictive power or scientific meaning. It's nothing but unprovable theological rubbish.

The average citizen doesn't have time to work out the necessary arguments to defeat these door to door scam artists who think they're doing their god's bidding.

Somebody has to protect the citizens of the world from this scam. Lest we fall back into the middle ages. Education is part of the plan, but so is rethinking our definition of tolerance.

I see your point. Perhaps I was a little too quick to disregard the fact that some uneducated people are susceptible to agreeing with intelligent design.

[eynon]

Quote: 1. Do you feel Intelligent design is a theory with as much support and power of prediction as evolution?

nope........I don't really think of it as a scientific theory at all....more-over it deals with the origins of life, evolution deals with the mechanics of life.......2 different issues.

Quote: 2. Do you think it's a good thing that Christian fundamentalist propaganda is being used to tighten fundamental Islam's hold on the middle east? oh God no! it's embarressing........

Quote: 3. Do you think Creationism is preying on the uneducated, and deserves the same fate as Jim Crow laws? It's not evil IMO, Jim Crow was.......I say let state education boards decide, if the people of Alabama want to teach ID in HS they should have that right........I don't agree with em, but they do have that right.

[Ek0nomik]

eynon is one of the cool cats on issues like this.

Anyways, evolution should be taught to all children. It's based upon science. While it's only a theory, so is gravity.

[Vakten]

The only thing that makes me madder then religious people trying to figure out where we came from, is scientists trying to figure out where we came from.

The human mind while incredible, is limited.

We will "never" answer this question. Never. Never.

Never!

No matter how great our technology gets, we will never know the origin of the universe.

You either have matter being created out of nothing. Or you have matter existing for infinity and made of infinitly smaller particles.

Last I checked, my brain couldn't store infinite amounts of information. I'm sure none of yours can either.

So scientists and religious people need to face it...you won't have your answer. Each question answered will lead to two more, and those two to four more and those four to eight more.

I find it hilarious that one peddler of BS is trying to corner the market over the other when it comes to a question neither of them will ever answer.

I like science and religion, don't get me wrong, but trying to sell either as a way of us learning how the universe got here is like I said...hysterical.

Teach people all the religion and science that you will...all I ask is that you stop pretending that either will lead you to an answer on this question.

It won't.

Ever.

[pyrophasma]

I have to say, who the f**k cares? Jesus Christ, does it matter how an idividual thinks we came into being? This argument is f***ing pointless. Of all the issues out there that affect us, and stupid motherf***ers are aruging over s**t that has no relevance to present day circumstances.

Christ, no one f***ing cares. Make a topic over something relevant to us.

[gavnook]

It's a stupid political issue that would never happen if education wasn't a "public good". Once upon a time in America, parents had to pay to educate their own children, and nobody had to pay educate the children of others. Education was not a matter of politics. Kids were taught as their parents wished, which seems to exactly how things should be.

Check out this piece by Vin Suprynowicz where he mostly just quotes other people's work, specifically:

Quote: Matthew Brouillette, director of education policy at the Mackinac Center for Public Policy, writes: "According to author Barry Poulson, ‘Private education was widely demanded in the late eighteenth and nineteenth centuries in Great Britain and America. The private supply of education was highly responsive to that demand, with the consequence that large numbers of children from all classes of society received several years of education.’

[...]

Author Andrew J. Coulson writes:

"Prior to the government’s involvement in education, there were nondenominational schools, Quaker schools and Lutheran schools, fundamentalist schools and more liberal Protestant schools, classical schools and technical schools, in accordance with the preferences of local communities. Some had homogeneous enrollments, others drew students from across ethnic and religious lines. In areas where schools of different sects coexisted, they and their patrons seldom came into conflict, since they did not try to foist their views on one another. They lived and let live in what were comparatively stable, though increasingly diverse communities. It was only after the state began creating uniform institutions for all children that these families were thrown into conflict.

Also consider the issue of the separation of church and state. Do you think it's a good idea, and if so why? When the state has control over what people believe, it has more power over them. Throughout history, most political leaders have also been the spiritual leaders. The glaring exception is middle age Europe, which long "suffered" from a shortage of oppression compared with the rest of the world. Liberal western thinkers have long recognized this. The modern western state is no longer one with the church, but instead we have public education. It once again has the power to tell people what to think. Many people recognize how great a power this, and that is why they fight so hard over what should be taught to other people's children.


EDIT: Yeah, I quoted a quote of a quote

[Sensor]

Vakten wrote: The only thing that makes me madder then religious people trying to figure out where we came from, is scientists trying to figure out where we came from.

The human mind while incredible, is limited.

We will "never" answer this question. Never. Never.

Never!

No matter how great our technology gets, we will never know the origin of the universe.

You either have matter being created out of nothing. Or you have matter existing for infinity and made of infinitly smaller particles.

Last I checked, my brain couldn't store infinite amounts of information. I'm sure none of yours can either.

So scientists and religious people need to face it...you won't have your answer. Each question answered will lead to two more, and those two to four more and those four to eight more.

I find it hilarious that one peddler of BS is trying to corner the market over the other when it comes to a question neither of them will ever answer.

I like science and religion, don't get me wrong, but trying to sell either as a way of us learning how the universe got here is like I said...hysterical.

Teach people all the religion and science that you will...all I ask is that you stop pretending that either will lead you to an answer on this question.

It won't.

Ever.

Evolution does not answer how life came to being. It just describes how it _evolved_.

[lovebush]

[quote="Vulcidian"]Her

Quote: 1. Do you feel Intelligent design is a theory with as much support and power of prediction as evolution?


no, I think the closed minded people, connect it to religion and therefor dismiss it outright.

Quote: 2. Do you think it's a good thing that Christian fundamentalist propaganda is being used to tighten fundamental Islam's hold on the middle east?

no, :roll:


Quote: 3. Do you think Creationism is preying on the uneducated, and deserves the same fate as Jim Crow laws?

....I think you know how I feel...


I don't think it will "prey" on you, but if you're worried, stay in school.

[lovebush]

pyrophasma wrote: I have to say, who the f**k cares? Jesus Christ, does it matter how an idividual thinks we came into being? This argument is f***ing pointless. Of all the issues out there that affect us, and stupid Motherf***ers are aruging over s**t that has no relevance to present day circumstances.

Christ, no one f***ing cares. Make a topic over something relevant to us.


So perhaps people should pm you with their thread ideas for you to approve them? Is that somewhere in the forum rules? Could it be that some people might be interested in things you are not? Hey! come to think of it, Im not to interested in lots of the threads on this forum! I have always just passed over them without reading or commenting on them. It never occurred to me to think that I might be so important , that I should jump into a thread that others are enjoying and spout off. Hm :think: should I do that? No , this is a political forum, there are are people of all stripes and interests, this is a place for the free exchange of ideas, even ones Im not interested in. besides, its a good way to come off looking like a total a$$.

[The American]

Vulcidian wrote: Here is the link:

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061122/sc_nm/religion_turkey_evolution_dc


So, basically, in Turkey they are continuing the push to uproot evolution from schools. They are using propaganda created by Intelligent Design and Creationism advocates to further there cause.

I feel it is a sad day when the pseudo-intellectual arguments in America are beginning to be used to justify the destruction of science throughout the world. Especially among nations with fundamentalist Islamists, where it is needed the most.

It's time for the United States government to make a stand. Despite the feelings of the country overall, our government rallied to strike a huge blow to prejudice and racism in the 1960's.

I feel it's time the government laid down the law in the intelligent design and creationist debate.

Unless it infringes upon the rights of others, one cannot force another human being to believe something that is a matter of opinion. But evolution is not a matter of opinion. The exact mechanics of evolution are up for debate, but the theory itself is beyond contestation of any manner that current science can offer.

Intelligent Design and Creationism are fake sciences with little use to humanity at all. Their arguments are so vague, and the predictive qualities so useless that any truth in them is completely useless for applications.

If I were to say, the sun will come up tomorrow, and it does, that is somewhat of a theory. But if a scientist tells me the sun will come up because of the rotation of the earth about its axis which completes a revolution approximately every 24hrs...now that is something useful.

Intelligent design and creationism are insults to the nation's intelligence. Every minute our society allows another child to be corrupted by this nonsense and put on the path of being useless as a thinking individual is a tragedy.

In my opinion, allowing someone to discriminate against someone because their race might be inferior, is the same thing as allowing creationism and intelligent design the same status as Evolution.

Evolution is a theory just like Atomic theory. But we can make atomic bombs, and we can breed animals based upon desired qualities.

I think this nonsense must stop immediately.

How do the readers feel?

1. Do you feel Intelligent design is a theory with as much support and power of prediction as evolution?

2. Do you think it's a good thing that Christian fundamentalist propaganda is being used to tighten fundamental Islam's hold on the middle east?

3. Do you think Creationism is preying on the uneducated, and deserves the same fate as Jim Crow laws?

....I think you know how I feel...

You are asking our government to take a stand on a baseless theory against another baseless theory? Theory of creation is based more or less on faith. Theory of evolution, if true could go either way. One thing not explained of it, if it is possible to move forward, then it is possible to move backward. In which case, you may be reduced eventually to the size of a worm.

To categorize people as being uneducated in believing one or the other is opinionated and baseless. Both are just theories, so those believing in one or the other, one has better intelligence? I think not. That my friend, would be a not so quite intelligent position to take.

Trig.

[Vulcidian]

The American wrote: Vulcidian wrote: Here is the link:

news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061122/sc_nm/religion_turkey_evolution_dc


So, basically, in Turkey they are continuing the push to uproot evolution from schools. They are using propaganda created by Intelligent Design and Creationism advocates to further there cause.

I feel it is a sad day when the pseudo-intellectual arguments in America are beginning to be used to justify the destruction of science throughout the world. Especially among nations with fundamentalist Islamists, where it is needed the most.

It's time for the United States government to make a stand. Despite the feelings of the country overall, our government rallied to strike a huge blow to prejudice and racism in the 1960's.

I feel it's time the government laid down the law in the intelligent design and creationist debate.

Unless it infringes upon the rights of others, one cannot force another human being to believe something that is a matter of opinion. But evolution is not a matter of opinion. The exact mechanics of evolution are up for debate, but the theory itself is beyond contestation of any manner that current science can offer.

Intelligent Design and Creationism are fake sciences with little use to humanity at all. Their arguments are so vague, and the predictive qualities so useless that any truth in them is completely useless for applications.

If I were to say, the sun will come up tomorrow, and it does, that is somewhat of a theory. But if a scientist tells me the sun will come up because of the rotation of the earth about its axis which completes a revolution approximately every 24hrs...now that is something useful.

Intelligent design and creationism are insults to the nation's intelligence. Every minute our society allows another child to be corrupted by this nonsense and put on the path of being useless as a thinking individual is a tragedy.

In my opinion, allowing someone to discriminate against someone because their race might be inferior, is the same thing as allowing creationism and intelligent design the same status as Evolution.

Evolution is a theory just like Atomic theory. But we can make atomic bombs, and we can breed animals based upon desired qualities.

I think this nonsense must stop immediately.

How do the readers feel?

1. Do you feel Intelligent design is a theory with as much support and power of prediction as evolution?

2. Do you think it's a good thing that Christian fundamentalist propaganda is being used to tighten fundamental Islam's hold on the middle east?

3. Do you think Creationism is preying on the uneducated, and deserves the same fate as Jim Crow laws?

....I think you know how I feel...

You are asking our government to take a stand on a baseless theory against another baseless theory? Theory of creation is based more or less on faith. Theory of evolution, if true could go either way. One thing not explained of it, if it is possible to move forward, then it is possible to move backward. In which case, you may be reduced eventually to the size of a worm.

To categorize people as being uneducated in believing one or the other is opinionated and baseless. Both are just theories, so those believing in one or the other, one has better intelligence? I think not. That my friend, would be a not so quite intelligent position to take.

Trig.


Evolution is not "just a theory" in the way that creationism is "just a theory".

Evolution is a theory with valueable predicatable knowledge. We use evolution to base our whole catagorization of species, we use it to study life that existed long before we did, we use it as the basis of all of biology.

Putting Creationism and Intelligent Design beside evolution and say "it's a matter of opinion", is absolutely crazy. If someone wants to look at all the evidence for evolution and say they choose Intelligent design or creationism, they deserve to be committed.

If you choose to believe something like Abraham Lincoln was assassinated, but you don't believe there's enough evidence for Evolution, you need help.

Our government must take a stand. This article proves the movement to undermine science with baseless faith is growing, and before we know it we'll be back to burning people at the stake.

Children should be publicly educated, and they should be publicly taught things that are TRUE. The fact of evolution is one of the closest approaches to absolute truth that humanity currently has to offer. It's right up there with truths like gravity.

This is what government is for. To stop people from intentionally hurting other people. Any parent that wants their child taught ID or creationism is doing harm to their child. They are knowingly or unknowingly lying to that child and preventing him or her from being a rational contributor to society and science.

This isn't about the origin of the Universe. This is about using the government to save our schools, our country, our planet, and our children.

Science knows Ted Haggard isn't going too.....

[CountryGuy]

Hrm... Well to start, I do agree it should stay out of government. Leave the science to the scientists.

However, I don't disagree with the concept of Intelligent Design, just the portrayal. By that, I mean that I believe some form of higher power created life, but the design is what it is -- Meaning evolutionary processes over millenia.

I don't think it hurts to mention that other theories exist in religion, but I don't think they should be taught in a science class.

[bob.appleyard]

Vakten wrote: The only thing that makes me madder then religious people trying to figure out where we came from, is scientists trying to figure out where we came from.

The human mind while incredible, is limited.

We will "never" answer this question. Never. Never.

Never!

No matter how great our technology gets, we will never know the origin of the universe.

You either have matter being created out of nothing. Or you have matter existing for infinity and made of infinitly smaller particles.

Last I checked, my brain couldn't store infinite amounts of information. I'm sure none of yours can either.

So scientists and religious people need to face it...you won't have your answer. Each question answered will lead to two more, and those two to four more and those four to eight more.

I find it hilarious that one peddler of BS is trying to corner the market over the other when it comes to a question neither of them will ever answer.

I like science and religion, don't get me wrong, but trying to sell either as a way of us learning how the universe got here is like I said...hysterical.

Teach people all the religion and science that you will...all I ask is that you stop pretending that either will lead you to an answer on this question.

It won't.

Ever.

And the award for totally missing the point goes to ...

Vakten!!!

Neo-Darwinism isn't cosmology.

[mendosan]

Vakten wrote: The only thing that makes me madder then religious people trying to figure out where we came from, is scientists trying to figure out where we came from.

The human mind while incredible, is limited.

We will "never" answer this question. Never. Never.

Never!

No matter how great our technology gets, we will never know the origin of the universe.

You either have matter being created out of nothing. Or you have matter existing for infinity and made of infinitly smaller particles.

Last I checked, my brain couldn't store infinite amounts of information. I'm sure none of yours can either.

So scientists and religious people need to face it...you won't have your answer. Each question answered will lead to two more, and those two to four more and those four to eight more.

I find it hilarious that one peddler of BS is trying to corner the market over the other when it comes to a question neither of them will ever answer.

I like science and religion, don't get me wrong, but trying to sell either as a way of us learning how the universe got here is like I said...hysterical.

Teach people all the religion and science that you will...all I ask is that you stop pretending that either will lead you to an answer on this question.

It won't.

Ever.

I bet a long time ago there was a caveman going "were never gonna be able to make fire,"

[bob.appleyard]

The American wrote: You are asking our government to take a stand on a baseless theory against another baseless theory? Theory of creation is based more or less on faith. Theory of evolution, if true could go either way. One thing not explained of it, if it is possible to move forward, then it is possible to move backward. In which case, you may be reduced eventually to the size of a worm.

To categorize people as being uneducated in believing one or the other is opinionated and baseless. Both are just theories, so those believing in one or the other, one has better intelligence? I think not. That my friend, would be a not so quite intelligent position to take.

Trig.

1. "baseless theory" -- this could mean one of two things:

a) you've tested the theory against evidence, and found its explicative powers wanting.

b) you don't know what a theory is

Okay, after reading "Theory of creation is based more or less on faith", I'm going to go with ... b.

2. "if it is possible to move forward, then it is possible to move backward" -- this can mean only one thing: that you're ignorant of neo-Darwinist evolution by natural selection's import. There is no forwards or backwards under neo-Darwinism, only adaption to the environment.

3. ID/creationism isn't a theory (note the use of a singular), as it does not make any testable predictions, merely asserts "god of the gaps." That is, if a phenomenon cannot currently be explained naturally, then God did it. It's intellectually lazy and doomed to failure, if it were a serious attempt to explain an aspect of the natural world, which of course it isn't.

[bob.appleyard]

To the OP:

The whole ID thing is a contrivance with precisely this aim in mind -- that is, establishing or cementing theocracy. It should be opposed, as its aims are quite clear, and are extremely worrying. Not only is the progress of knowledge about the natural world threatened by this movement, but even a trivial level of human freedom would be unconscionable if this project succeeds.

[Charlie Man]

I don't personally think we should intervene in other countries in this way, whether they're wrong or not, it's also wrong to impose upon them. I think it's called "high-handedness without representation."

As for education being better before public education, gavnook, just look at the illiteracy rate before and after, and take a look at germany's reformation from tribes into a nation and how universal education impacted that. Pretty effective counterexamples, them.

And lastly, upon the question of ID (the idea that's so unscientific it's not even wrong) or evolution (the theory we've been using for quite a time now and has yet to run into a counterexample [that means something in the fossil record that doesn't fit at all, or modern observation of evolution happening, but in a very wierd fashion]) I think it's obvious.

They closed down forum number 6, creationism vs evolution, becasue the scientists won.