Political Crossfire Forums

[Plato & Socrates]

Lies, we've all told them before. They can sometimes be harmless, cause distrust and they can cause emotional pain. But rarely do lies cause death. This Bush led U.S administration, has the distinction of having this honour.
These lies were perpetrated, at the expense of Brave men & women, who believed they were fighting a war, to save there fellow citizens from Saddam Insanes WMD's and death.

When it comes to Bush's WMD claims, the public falls into 3 categories.
1. Those who never believed a word Bush said, of the existence, readiness and that we are only 45 minutes from WMD attack garbage.
2. Those who believed Bush, but now realise after extensive searching inside Iraq. There are no WMD's, but Bush was led astray by faulty intelligence and only acted upon what he was told.
3. Those who still believe Bush, they still believe the WMD intelligence reports and they still believe WMD's will be found Iraq.

Today the Times U.K war memo rared its ugly head again today, after more British dead were being buried. On May 1, 2005, the Times of London newspaper published a secret British memo that stated “intelligence and facts were being fixed“. In the memo, Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon is quoted as saying the United States had not finalized a timeline, but that it would likely begin “30 days before the U.S. congressional elections," culminating with the actual attack in January 2003. The memo was sent in mid-2002 before President Bush brought the issue of attacking Iraq to Congress. edition.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/britain.war.memo/index.html www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1592724,00.html

Then I came across this 2 minute video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cV6RCnA5WY What I found just as sad was reminders of Powell and Condi's, pre 9/11, saying Saddam posed no threats blah blah blah. Then post 9/11 Saddam had WMD's and was a imminent threat. Contradicting what they said only months previously. www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN5yvoIsnnE&mode=related&search= Two totally contradictory views. You have this CNN video of Powell, with reputable state department officials, saying they were sold duff information and a pack of lies. www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYBA9JD5oW4&mode=related&search=

It is quite clear to anybody with a I.Q above 10 G.W.Bush included, that this whole Iraq WMD story was a pack of lies. It is clear that is was deliberately fabricated, for the sole purpose of justifying a war. What upsets me most, is that the U.S and British governments, asked our soldiers, men and women, young boys and girls with there whole lives ahead of them, to die for a cause THEY knew to be a lie. This is'nt a party political issue. This is'nt about left or right. There is something seriously wrong with our democracies, if we the people can let this happen. Even more disturbing, is that we know they have been lying and we are powerless to bring them to account for there actions. There is no truer statement than "the first casualty of war, is the truth"

Here's a 2 minute speech by Bush, he's talking to the converted. Dont forget while watching, that he is giving this speech, fully well knowing it is a fabrication. Hollywood beckons for Bush, there is no doubting his talents for acting. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnt2Z5WI_mE

[JoeBen81]

Why do you hate Freedom??
:lol:


I'm a number 1, by the way.

[Vexillum]

Yes, Bush lied. That's such an obvious fact that when people deny Bush lied, they really mean that they support Bush lying.

[Plato & Socrates]

JoeBen81 wrote: Why do you hate Freedom??
:lol:


I'm a number 1, by the way.

There are still those on P.C, that cling to the notion that Bush was honest and sincere. I believe that with all the evidence out there, it is clear that this whole WMD story and intelligence was a fabrication. This lie has led to deaths of our servicemen and women. made us less safe in the world and has totally f**ked up Iraq. Leaving it now teetering on the brink of a Lebanese style civil war.

[Alizard]

Plato & Socrates wrote: JoeBen81 wrote: Why do you hate Freedom??
:lol:


I'm a number 1, by the way.

There are still those on P.C, that cling to the notion that Bush was honest and sincere.

And the rest of us have long since given up hope they will join the rest of the class living in the real world.

Stubborness and pure hatred can fuel a redneck for a million miles of denial.... :lol:

[Dookiestix]

Vexillum wrote: Yes, Bush lied. That's such an obvious fact that when people deny Bush lied, they really mean that they support Bush lying.
And get ready to eventually hear from them, as they continue to support the Bush lies.

http://www.thememoryhole.org/war/powell-no-wmd.htm

Quote: Rice: He has not developed any significant capability with respect to weapons of mass destruction. He is unable to project conventional power against his neighbors. So in effect, our policies have strengthened the security of the neighbors of Iraq...

Powell: The sanctions, as they are called, have succeeded over the last 10 years, not in deterring him from moving in that direction, but from actually being able to move in that direction. The Iraqi regime militarily remains fairly weak. It doesn't have the capacity it had 10 or 12 years ago. It has been contained. And even though we have no doubt in our mind that the Iraqi regime is pursuing programs to develop weapons of mass destruction -- chemical, biological and nuclear -- I think the best intelligence estimates suggest that they have not been terribly successful. There's no question that they have some stockpiles of some of these sorts of weapons still under their control, but they have not been able to break out, they have not been able to come out with the capacity to deliver these kinds of systems or to actually have these kinds of systems that is much beyond where they were 10 years ago.
Lest we forget that both Powell, who was the Secretary of State at the time, and Rice, who was head of National Security, basically said that Saddam was just not a threat. Then after 9/11 happened, their stories changed abruptly. I mean, we're talking a 180 degree turnaround from what they were saying before 9/11 happened.

Amazing that Powell would go from his prior statements which are quoted above to this in just two years:



How the intelligence could have changed so dramatically to then indicate that Saddam was an imminent threat who was developing his nuclear weapons and was able to attack us in 45 minutes is beyond baffling. It's idiotic. And it was blatantly obvious. Those of us who protested in the streets around the world knew damn well that Bush was a piece of sh!t liar who bush!tted us into a war that has claimed the lies of close to 3,000 American servicemen and countless Iraqi citizens. And we protested and predicted the outcome before he even started his corporate war.

Powell lost all credibility after his shameless performance at the U.N., and he unfortunately didn't have the balls to call Bush on his lies. He should have resigned and pointed the finger where it was due, but he just clammed up and allowed Bush to invade Iraq. And Rice is no better, as she was just as much of a shill as Powell and the others were.

Bush always wanted to attack Iraq, and 9/11 gave him the perfect excuse for him and the neocons who prop him up while getting the chance to pursue their unilateral and pre-emptive agenda of spreading the wealth for their corporate donors by attacking another country with the second largest underground oil reserves in the world.

[Medius]

Plato & Socrates wrote: JoeBen81 wrote: Why do you hate Freedom??
:lol:


I'm a number 1, by the way.

There are still those on P.C, that cling to the notion that Bush was honest and sincere. I believe that with all the evidence out there, it is clear that this whole WMD story and intelligence was a fabrication. This lie has led to deaths of our servicemen and women. made us less safe in the world and has totally f**ked up Iraq. Leaving it now teetering on the brink of a Lebanese style civil war.

I provide for the possibility that the intelligence might have been faulty. Of course, invading a sovereign nation and killing both foreign and domestic troops on the word of faulty intelligence is only a short step above lying to do the same.

The president must be held to a higher standards than your average Joe who punches his best friend after his girlfriend lies and says she's sleeping with him.

Once an "honest mistake" costs a life, it is no longer a trivial matter.

To be perfectly honest, I do think that someone lied or falsified intelligence to create a reason to invade Iraq.

[Vexillum]

Medius wrote: To be perfectly honest, I do think that someone lied or falsified intelligence to create a reason to invade Iraq.

Please demonstrate that you have a clue about what you're talking about by just providing one specific example a WMD evidence claim made by Bush. How can you make a judgment about whether or not Bush lied when you don't don't even know of anything he said?

[Nathyn]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Lies, we've all told them before. They can sometimes be harmless, cause distrust and they can cause emotional pain. But rarely do lies cause death. This Bush led U.S administration, has the distinction of having this honour.
These lies were perpetrated, at the expense of Brave men & women, who believed they were fighting a war, to save there fellow citizens from Saddam Insanes WMD's and death.

When it comes to Bush's WMD claims, the public falls into 3 categories.
1. Those who never believed a word Bush said, of the existence, readiness and that we are only 45 minutes from WMD attack garbage.
2. Those who believed Bush, but now realise after extensive searching inside Iraq. There are no WMD's, but Bush was led astray by faulty intelligence and only acted upon what he was told.
3. Those who still believe Bush, they still believe the WMD intelligence reports and they still believe WMD's will be found Iraq.

Today the Times U.K war memo rared its ugly head again today, after more British dead were being buried. On May 1, 2005, the Times of London newspaper published a secret British memo that stated “intelligence and facts were being fixed“. In the memo, Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon is quoted as saying the United States had not finalized a timeline, but that it would likely begin “30 days before the U.S. congressional elections," culminating with the actual attack in January 2003. The memo was sent in mid-2002 before President Bush brought the issue of attacking Iraq to Congress. edition.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/britain.war.memo/index.html www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1592724,00.html

Then I came across this 2 minute video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cV6RCnA5WY What I found just as sad was reminders of Powell and Condi's, pre 9/11, saying Saddam posed no threats blah blah blah. Then post 9/11 Saddam had WMD's and was a imminent threat. Contradicting what they said only months previously. www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN5yvoIsnnE&mode=related&search= Two totally contradictory views. You have this CNN video of Powell, with reputable state department officials, saying they were sold duff information and a pack of lies. www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYBA9JD5oW4&mode=related&search=

It is quite clear to anybody with a I.Q above 10 G.W.Bush included, that this whole Iraq WMD story was a pack of lies. It is clear that is was deliberately fabricated, for the sole purpose of justifying a war. What upsets me most, is that the U.S and British governments, asked our soldiers, men and women, young boys and girls with there whole lives ahead of them, to die for a cause THEY knew to be a lie. This is'nt a party political issue. This is'nt about left or right. There is something seriously wrong with our democracies, if we the people can let this happen. Even more disturbing, is that we know they have been lying and we are powerless to bring them to account for there actions. There is no truer statement than "the first casualty of war, is the truth"

Here's a 2 minute speech by Bush, he's talking to the converted. Dont forget while watching, that he is giving this speech, fully well knowing it is a fabrication. Hollywood beckons for Bush, there is no doubting his talents for acting. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnt2Z5WI_mE
The Downing Street memos are old news, but yeah, Bush lied. They thought there might've been a chance Hussein had WMDs, but they didn't base that belief upon any concrete evidence, acknowledging he had no WMDs. And hence, we invaded Iraq but not North Korea.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_street_memo

[Nathyn]

Vexillum wrote: Medius wrote: To be perfectly honest, I do think that someone lied or falsified intelligence to create a reason to invade Iraq.

Please demonstrate that you have a clue about what you're talking about by just providing one specific example a WMD evidence claim made by Bush. How can you make a judgment about whether or not Bush lied when you don't don't even know of anything he said?
LOL, what about the infamous fourteen words?!

[Medius]

Vexillum wrote: Medius wrote: To be perfectly honest, I do think that someone lied or falsified intelligence to create a reason to invade Iraq.

Please demonstrate that you have a clue about what you're talking about by just providing one specific example a WMD evidence claim made by Bush. How can you make a judgment about whether or not Bush lied when you don't don't even know of anything he said?

I know plenty about what Bush said, though I'm not sure I can tell what you are saying.

If you are suggesting that Bush never said that Iraq had WMDs, then you just need to do a little research. He absolutely said that Iraq has WMDs. Donald Rumsfeld said the same and then said he knew exactly where they were.

If you are asking how I know he lied? I don't. It was an afterthought to clarify my inclination. As I mentioned first, I do provide for the possibility that Bush may have made a mistake. It isn't my inclination to believe that it was a mistake, but I don't know and will never know conclusively.

[Vexillum]

Medius wrote: If you are suggesting that Bush never said that Iraq had WMDs, then you just need to do a little research. He absolutely said that Iraq has WMDs. Donald Rumsfeld said the same and then said he knew exactly where they were.

Sorry, Medius, I just didn't think you were forceful enough in your original statements. :)

[Dookiestix]

Vexillum wrote: Medius wrote: To be perfectly honest, I do think that someone lied or falsified intelligence to create a reason to invade Iraq.

Please demonstrate that you have a clue about what you're talking about by just providing one specific example a WMD evidence claim made by Bush. How can you make a judgment about whether or not Bush lied when you don't don't even know of anything he said?
That clue has been demonstrated ad nauseum on this forum. Try searching around a bit and you'll realize the conventional wisdom here that you somehow refuse to embrace:

Bush lied about Saddam's WMDs. Rumsfeld said he knew EXACTLY where they were:

http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/t03302003_t0330sdabcsteph.html

Quote: SEC. RUMSFELD: Not at all. If you think -- let me take that, both pieces -- the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.
And yet:


Rumsfeld being called on his bullsh!t.

[Mr. Sunshine]

Bush believed what the global INTEL network and the Democrats who voted for force against Iraq believed. 8:)

[CountryGuy]

Mr. Sunshine wrote: Bush believed what the global INTEL network and the Democrats who voted for force against Iraq believed. 8:)

Shhh! Stop that! That's no fun! :wink:

[Dookiestix]

Mr. Sunshine wrote: Bush believed what the global INTEL network and the Democrats who voted for force against Iraq believed. 8:)
Then 9/11 happened, and everybody "believed" something entirely different. 8:)

How soon we forget what Powell and Rice said back in February of 2001. :roll:

[bob.appleyard]

There were WMDs in Iraq. Saddam didn't have them though.

[asainspace]

Plato & Socrates wrote: Lies, we've all told them before. They can sometimes be harmless, cause distrust and they can cause emotional pain. But rarely do lies cause death. This Bush led U.S administration, has the distinction of having this honour.
These lies were perpetrated, at the expense of Brave men & women, who believed they were fighting a war, to save there fellow citizens from Saddam Insanes WMD's and death.

When it comes to Bush's WMD claims, the public falls into 3 categories.
1. Those who never believed a word Bush said, of the existence, readiness and that we are only 45 minutes from WMD attack garbage.
2. Those who believed Bush, but now realise after extensive searching inside Iraq. There are no WMD's, but Bush was led astray by faulty intelligence and only acted upon what he was told.
3. Those who still believe Bush, they still believe the WMD intelligence reports and they still believe WMD's will be found Iraq.

Today the Times U.K war memo rared its ugly head again today, after more British dead were being buried. On May 1, 2005, the Times of London newspaper published a secret British memo that stated “intelligence and facts were being fixed“. In the memo, Defense Secretary Geoff Hoon is quoted as saying the United States had not finalized a timeline, but that it would likely begin “30 days before the U.S. congressional elections," culminating with the actual attack in January 2003. The memo was sent in mid-2002 before President Bush brought the issue of attacking Iraq to Congress. edition.cnn.com/2005/US/05/11/britain.war.memo/index.html www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2087-1592724,00.html

Then I came across this 2 minute video. www.youtube.com/watch?v=8cV6RCnA5WY What I found just as sad was reminders of Powell and Condi's, pre 9/11, saying Saddam posed no threats blah blah blah. Then post 9/11 Saddam had WMD's and was a imminent threat. Contradicting what they said only months previously. www.youtube.com/watch?v=oN5yvoIsnnE&mode=related&search= Two totally contradictory views. You have this CNN video of Powell, with reputable state department officials, saying they were sold duff information and a pack of lies. www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYBA9JD5oW4&mode=related&search=

It is quite clear to anybody with a I.Q above 10 G.W.Bush included, that this whole Iraq WMD story was a pack of lies. It is clear that is was deliberately fabricated, for the sole purpose of justifying a war. What upsets me most, is that the U.S and British governments, asked our soldiers, men and women, young boys and girls with there whole lives ahead of them, to die for a cause THEY knew to be a lie. This is'nt a party political issue. This is'nt about left or right. There is something seriously wrong with our democracies, if we the people can let this happen. Even more disturbing, is that we know they have been lying and we are powerless to bring them to account for there actions. There is no truer statement than "the first casualty of war, is the truth"

Here's a 2 minute speech by Bush, he's talking to the converted. Dont forget while watching, that he is giving this speech, fully well knowing it is a fabrication. Hollywood beckons for Bush, there is no doubting his talents for acting. www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tnt2Z5WI_mE

The problem is that this type of activity, as you have highlighted, brings about and makes legitimate acts that are either of equal or worse value to those initially perpetrated. If you concoct a deep rooted and politically sinister plan someone is going to resist, whether by armed resistance or pacified voice we are not all prone to the weak but attractive acceptance of the "We know whats best for you, we are the government" crap. The saddest thing to accept is that our democracies expel a certain hypocrisy in both terms of the value of humans to the execution and subsequent media devaluing of those said humans. A cat stuck in a tree in the West is worth twenty Muslims killed by aggressive means in terms of media attractiveness or either by insurgents or an aggressive foreign occupier, vindified by its own self importance to determine the course of nations. Yet, it which seeks to shape is guilty of gross negligence to both it's mature international responsibilities and those of it's responsibilities to it's own people. Go, fight and kill Arab resistance in order to prolong a suffocating and remorseless capital machine of consumer led slavery that destroys and enslaves the poorest of the world.........to ensure you have a straw for your soda, you have to endanger the future of the world. What have we, and I include myself, when we are so dismissive of life around the world. If someone in your neighbourhood dies, you are interested, but when someone dies in Iraq it bears no interest to the general public. We are in a sick state of denial and encouraged by the sickest side of our democracies..............those that act cause they have a supposed mandate.................which no one voted on, you were just manipulated to follow the line.

[Vexillum]

Mr. Sunshine wrote: Bush believed what the global INTEL network and the Democrats who voted for force against Iraq believed. 8:)

Mr. Sunshine, if you thought you were telling the truth, you'd be talking about the evidence itself.

[indieinmich]

I never did understand how we went from Osama Bin Laden and Al-Quida in Afghanistan back to Iraq once again.And the Headlines or Reasons if you will changed every week seemingly to push some unknown agenda(I assume).First they were in cahoots with Osama.Then it was weapons of mass destruction.Then operation Iraqi freedom.I mean please.I am paranoid I admit it keeps me out of trouble.But bad intell.Bad intell brought all the way to the president on which he acted?Has anyone ever been fired for the poor job they did?Seems more like made up intell to me.Of course this is all speculation and opinion.
I suppose it is possible that our president and his administration simply got it wrong.But even still today they dont really act as if they got anything wrong.Perhaps if they did I would be more likely to believe it was a mistake.Until that day comes which I predict will be never Ill sit soundly in my paranoia and speculation of lies deceit and hidden agendas.