Political Crossfire Forums

XiangYu · Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3835 Location: US

eynon wrote: Tono wrote: I'm not sure, but I think it's a combination of two facts.

1. We don't carry guns. People are more likely to escalate a conflict if they are reasonably sure they'll live through it.

2. Asians are the majority here. Their influence is set into our culture. Most kids grow up training judo, karate, or kung fu.

makes sense.......I was in like 2 fights before I lived in China(boxing aside), in the 1 year I lived over there I think I was in like 8......no gun+lottsa asians=fist-fights......... :lol: :lol:

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8672 Location: Petah Tikva

Training to fight someone in a fair one on one fight is a waste of time, when is that ever likely to become useful in self defense? You have to learn to fight at a disadvantage, with one arm, in fog, with blairing sound, when your opponent has a gun, when you have multiple opponents, when more than one of them has a gun, with a limp, etc etc. You dont have to excel at fighting but if your competent enough to defend yourself effectivly under those conditions your more than fine.

XiangYu · Joined: 03 Mar 2005 Posts: 3835 Location: US

superskippy wrote: Training to fight someone in a fair one on one fight is a waste of time, when is that ever likely to become useful in self defense? You have to learn to fight at a disadvantage, with one arm, in fog, with blairing sound, when your opponent has a gun, when you have multiple opponents, when more than one of them has a gun, with a limp, etc etc. You dont have to excel at fighting but if your competent enough to defend yourself effectivly under those conditions your more than fine. Dude, just join the friggin Navy Seals if thats what you are after...

Tono · Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 11742 Location: Mounted

thundertaker wrote: These aren't really the fights you have to worry about though. Those types of fights are mainly about pride.

Did you read that before posting it?

thundertaker wrote: Not to say we can't handle them either, but they are not the sole focus of our training in the way they are for more 'sporty' martial arts like BJJ.

I've yet to see a jitsu guy beat a Bjj guy. Then again, the only time you'll see jitsu on display is during choreographed exhibitions.

thundertaker wrote: A lot of our members are coppers who have to use Jitsu on a fairly regular basis. One of my instructors is a Bobby and a second dan, he has often been attacked by several people at once, sometimes armed, and had to deal with the situation.

I saw an episode of cops where the trooper took on two guys using nothing but "down and dirty".

thundertaker wrote: We don't train to fight in our gis. We train to deal with a threat as quickly as possible so that we can be ready for the next one.

In gis. You also train in light contact with choreographed attackers.

thundertaker wrote: At the end of the day, I'm not training to be able to take on Chuck Norris in single combat, I'm training to be able to take on the most important scenario, that of a scally, possibly with his mates, wanting to mug me, or simply beat the living daylights out of me for the fun of it.

That's called being limited. That's all I'm saying. Same goes for any other martial art.

thundertaker wrote: A man was beaten to death on campus by such a gang only a few hundred yards from were I live, so this situation is not exactly unheard of.

True, but you're more likely to face a single opponent.

thundertaker wrote: Your average muppet isn't going to know how to breakfall or flip out of a wristlock, so they will end up worse off.

To keep things in context, I've always said all martial arts are good against people who don't know how to fight. It's when you're fighting someone with any kind of talent that presents a problem for most martial artists.

thundertaker wrote: Being attacked by people who are armed or in groups is the most dangerous scenario you are likely to face. Does it not make sense to train for that as well?

Of course. That's why I think it's a bad idea to stick with one system, and would never teach self defense in a gi.

Tono · Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 11742 Location: Mounted

superskippy wrote: Training to fight someone in a fair one on one fight is a waste of time, when is that ever likely to become useful in self defense?

When you're fighting someone one on one. :lol:

Scrapping isn't rocket science. My last fight was technically against three guys. I only touched skin with one of them because the other two lost their will to fight.

If you're up against a group of guys who know how to fight, you're going to get your ass kicked. Period. The difference is how many you'll take down with you.

superskippy wrote: You have to learn to fight at a disadvantage, with one arm, in fog, with blairing sound, when your opponent has a gun, when you have multiple opponents, when more than one of them has a gun, with a limp, etc etc. You dont have to excel at fighting but if your competent enough to defend yourself effectivly under those conditions your more than fine.

:lol:

Tono · Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 11742 Location: Mounted

Having said all of that, there's always someone who's bigger and/or badder.

The Grandmaster · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:11 pm Post subject:

Tono wrote: Having said all of that, there's always someone who's bigger and/or badder.

Unless you're Fedor Emelianenko.

Then there's really not.

Tono · Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 11742 Location: Mounted

The Grandmaster wrote: Unless you're Fedor Emelianenko.

Then there's really not.

I think there's a certain left leg that would disagree, but still needs to earn the right to say it out loud. :shock:

The Grandmaster · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject:

Tono wrote: The Grandmaster wrote: Unless you're Fedor Emelianenko.

Then there's really not.

I think there's a certain left leg that would disagree, but still needs to earn the right to say it out loud. :shock:

Right kick hospital...

Left kick cemetary. :lol:

Best line ever. If the same CroCop comes to fight Fedor that fought in the Grand Prix finals...you're right.

I can't wait.

eynon · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:16 pm Post subject:

Tono wrote: superskippy wrote: Training to fight someone in a fair one on one fight is a waste of time, when is that ever likely to become useful in self defense?

When you're fighting someone one on one. :lol:

Scrapping isn't rocket science. My last fight was technically against three guys. I only touched skin with one of them because the other two lost their will to fight.

If you're up against a group of guys who know how to fight, you're going to get your ass kicked. Period. The difference is how many you'll take down with you.

oh it's true, I was in a couple bars brawls with whole a group of Kazakhs over in China, but only really had to fight one guy......I figured the one with the biggest mustache was the leader, so I went for him:

f***ing ass-hole!

Quicksurf · Joined: 06 Sep 2005 Posts: 4675

Although I never get into fights, I think it is best to run away. I know it sounds cowardly to some of you internet badasses, but from what I notice in bars and nightclubs- no one usually "wins" a fight. Dealiing with the police, witnesses, and the risk of actually killing someone isn't worth it to me.

thorn · Joined: 25 Jun 2004 Posts: 2743 Location: some rainy place

peaceful bugger that I am I would never be in a fight and so far I always managed to talk myself (or friends) out of possibly dangerous situations. I certainly don't look too dangerous. ;)

thundertaker wrote: Having said that, I wouldn't punch someone in the throat unless I thought they were trying to kill me. It is a potentialy lethal move that can result in death because you basically crushing their trachea.
I'd still go down that road and punch the throat. I'd go Swiss on them though and use my training as a medic to help afterwards.

Ellron wrote: Irish style

Get drunk, curse, and then fall down the stairs into your opponent.
I miss the singing and dancing part, but other than that, it's accurate and effective. Otherwise I'd use one technique handed down by generations of drunk Bavarians: grab the liter mug (preferably filled for added weight) by the handle, and apply it to the opponent's head. Incredibly effective. Heard of a beer tent fight once that had to be broken up by police in my hometown. four cracked skulls, 8 people with considerable cut wounds in ther faces and a couple of other cases of definite need for cosmetic surgery.

Besides, if you know any martial art in Germany and use it in a fight, you'll be considered armed even in self defense. Of course they distinguish if the attacker was armed and how badly you hurt him, but in general there's a chance you're up s**t creek.

thundertaker · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:58 pm Post subject: Re: Fighting Style

Tono wrote: Did you read that before posting it?

What's the point in allowing yourself to get provoked into a fight if it's not neccessary?

Quote:

I've yet to see a jitsu guy beat a Bjj guy. Then again, the only time you'll see jitsu on display is during choreographed exhibitions.

My style isn't well known in the US (except in South Carolina), it is practiced mainly in Britain, the commonwealth and a few EU countries. You would have to watch/participate in a session with senior/dan grades taking part in order to be able to make a fair judgement.
From my own experiance, I know this has the potential to work, many of the people in my club are serving police officers (the style itself originated from Riukiu Myura, who trained the Tokyo police in unarmed combat techniques back in the 1950s)
For my own part, you may be correct in saying that learning BJJ is better for one-on-one combat in UFC or whatever. In the world of sport's fighting, it is probably superior for it's intended purpose, but for self-defence, it has it's flaws if you don't train against people who are armed or attacked by multiple attackers.

Quote:

In gis. You also train in light contact with choreographed attackers.

The gi is not important, as long as you're instructor is teaching you techniques that depend on the unique charectaristics of the gi to work (world federation jitsu is notorious for this, and it's something we try to avoid). We wear it because it is durable and we don't want to rip our normal clothes. Most of us are students after all and we can't afford to keep replacing them...:)
The police instructor we have as a sensei deliberately teaches us techniques that do not require a gi because of his own experiance.
At the lower kyu grades, the attacks are choreographed to a certain extent, but I can assure you, they get less and less choreographed as you get higher up the grading.
It doesn't really make much sense to go hell for leather against a novice before you've even taught them any techniques they can use to defend themselves.

Quote:

That's called being limited. That's all I'm saying. Same goes for any other martial art.

Fair enough. There is no such thing as an 'all encompassing' martial art. BJJ is an excellent art for one-on-one combat and for UFC matches. TJF Jitsu is more geared towards defending yourself in a variety of potential situations the street against thugs armed with weapons and more than one opponent.
Our style to some extent tries to be a 'jack of all trades' for the sake of flexibility, but if I had time, I'd learn something like kick-boxing as well to improve my long range attacks. Do you or would you do cross-training in other martial arts to increase your tactical flexibility?

Quote:
True, but you're more likely to face a single opponent.

Single opponents are the easiest to deal with, but it's not the only attack you might have to face and it's probably not the most potentially dangerous. I'd rather face one person than a multitude of people, but at least if I was attacked by a group of people, I know I have been trained to have some idea of what to do in that situation.

Quote:

To keep things in context, I've always said all martial arts are good against people who don't know how to fight. It's when you're fighting someone with any kind of talent that presents a problem for most martial artists.

Some martial arts are mickey mouse operations. I'm sure you've heard of Wayne Muromoto, who lives in your neck of the woods.
He wrote an interesting article on the subject of some of the 'McDojos' in operation:
http://www.koryu.com/library/wmuromoto4.html

Quote:
Of course. That's why I think it's a bad idea to stick with one system, and would never teach self defense in a gi.

TJF Jitsu is fairly flexible, as I've already mentioned. Other arts may put more emphasis on certain aspects of fighting such as ground-holds, kicks, punches etc, but our style tries to incorporate all these techniques to a certain degree, so the flexibility means we should be able to handle a wider variety of situations than most.
If you want to fight in single combat against a UFC champion, you'd probably be better of learning something that emphasised single combat, like BJJ, but for the average person who just wants to learn how to handle themselves in the street, I don't know of a better system. For me anyway.
If and when I have time, I think I might try some sort of kick-boxing art. All types of Jitsu (including BJJ) do tend to put a lot of emphasis on close-in work when a nicely place kick can stop them coming anywhere near you in the first place.
It all depends on the situation....

Kt · Joined: 23 Jan 2006 Posts: 3806

Anything-Goes Martial Arts

NAB · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:28 pm Post subject:

I was just thinking about something in regards to a few of the posts on training to fight muliple people and all, and an important point came to mind. Aggressiveness. I'm speaking from first hand knowledge on this, from an incident that happened when I was in college. A friend and I were leaving a bar late one night and found ourselves "surrounded" by a group of around 20 teenagers looking to hurt someone. I remembered something a buddy who used to teach martial arts (Tae kwon do iirc) told me, and that is don't hesitate to land the first blow in a real street fight. When I was surrounded by these little ***** I went at the nearest one and took him down, and kept on hauling ass after I broke from their loose circle. My friend was a little slower on the uptake and ended up getting hit in the head with a brick for his trouble.

I guess the moral of the story is, don't be afraid to land the first blow in a real brawl.

The Grandmaster · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:34 pm Post subject: Re: Fighting Style

thundertaker wrote: For my own part, you may be correct in saying that learning BJJ is better for one-on-one combat in UFC or whatever. In the world of sport's fighting, it is probably superior for it's intended purpose, but for self-defence, it has it's flaws if you don't train against people who are armed or attacked by multiple attackers.

thundertaker wrote: BJJ is an excellent art for one-on-one combat and for UFC matches.

thundertaker wrote: If you want to fight in single combat against a UFC champion, you'd probably be better of learning something that emphasised single combat, like BJJ, but for the average person who just wants to learn how to handle themselves in the street, I don't know of a better system.

I believe your view that Brazilian JuJitsu is only effective in sport combat is shortsighted. I’ve only heard you give it credit as it relates to sport. But I don’t think you can show this is the case. BJJ is excellent for grappling/ground fighting in general. You choke someone out, they lose in the cage, or on the street. You snap someone’s arm, and it is just as snapped on the street as it is in a cage. Most people who fight are normal people who are untrained. The knowledge of BJJ against most people is going to provide you with an great advantage anywhere.

JohnnyQ · Joined: 13 Nov 2004 Posts: 1316 Location: somewhere

I'm gonna use some of that Equilibrium gun kata stuff. Now that is some amazing s**t.

thundertaker · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Fighting Style

The Grandmaster wrote:

I believe your view that Brazilian JuJitsu is only effective in sport combat is shortsighted. I’ve only heard you give it credit as it relates to sport. But I don’t think you can show this is the case. BJJ is excellent for grappling/ground fighting in general. You choke someone out, they lose in the cage, or on the street. You snap someone’s arm, and it is just as snapped on the street as it is in a cage. Most people who fight are normal people who are untrained. The knowledge of BJJ against most people is going to provide you with an great advantage anywhere.

'Sports' martial arts are mainly concerned with 1-1 fights. If you're only fighting one other guy in the street, then BJJ is all fine and dandy. But if you're dealing with more than one person, you will want to neutralise the first person as quickly as possible and stay on your feet.
Because as I've stated before, whilst your poncing around on the ground trying to pin your opponent, his chum is probably going to be standing over you aiming his shoe at your face, or worse, drawing a knife ready to plunge into your back......

Tono · Joined: 23 Jan 2005 Posts: 11742 Location: Mounted

thundertaker wrote: What's the point in allowing yourself to get provoked into a fight if it's not neccessary?

You're changing the subject.

thundertaker wrote: but for self-defence, it has it's flaws if you don't train against people who are armed or attacked by multiple attackers.

Sure, as does Jitsu by training in a gi against choreographed attackers.

Quote:

In gis. You also train in light contact with choreographed attackers.

thundertaker wrote: The gi is not important, as long as you're instructor is teaching you techniques that depend on the unique charectaristics of the gi to work (world federation jitsu is notorious for this, and it's something we try to avoid). We wear it because it is durable and we don't want to rip our normal clothes. Most of us are students after all and we can't afford to keep replacing them...:)
The police instructor we have as a sensei deliberately teaches us techniques that do not require a gi because of his own experiance.

But you train in a gi. My point is that you perform as you were trained. If you're trained in a gi against choreographed opponents, that's what you'll be good at.

thundertaker wrote: At the lower kyu grades, the attacks are choreographed to a certain extent, but I can assure you, they get less and less choreographed as you get higher up the grading.
It doesn't really make much sense to go hell for leather against a novice before you've even taught them any techniques they can use to defend themselves.

It teaches them what to defend against.

Quote:

That's called being limited. That's all I'm saying. Same goes for any other martial art.

thundertaker wrote: Do you or would you do cross-training in other martial arts to increase your tactical flexibility?

Most definately. I also train in American kickboxing, boxing, and some muay thai. I've also tossed in some "small circle" stuff as well as rips over the years.

thundertaker wrote: for the average person who just wants to learn how to handle themselves in the street, I don't know of a better system.

You might change your mind after trying something else. If you decide to branch out, at least give a look at a full-contact school.

thundertaker · Posted: Wed Nov 29, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject:

Let me get one thing straight with regards to your accusation that TJF Jitsu only trains you to deal with choreographed attacks:

At the lower grades, the attacks are specific and slowed down at first to get people used to where they need to go and what they need to do to counter certain attacks, eventually, it get's faster and becomes less predictable, until eventually, you are facing attacks were the tori is doing his or her best to lamp you (and if they succeed, you owe them a pint).
I got my first real taste of this on sunday and it scared the s**t out of me, but I managed to avoid getting battered, and use my training to deal with the situation, although my friend managed to get hit in the face twice (once by me) and he had to go to the hospital afterwards because somebody else drove his teeth through his lower lip. I've only just reached this stage of being put in the position of having to properly defend myself after approximately 700+ hours worth of training.
This style is used to teach unarmed combat to riot police. These people have practical experiance in dealing with hostile people armed with various nasty implements. They wouldn't be wasting their time with this art if they thought it was all glorified dancing.

Once you've learned the basic principles, you can apply them to a more realistic situation. Do you honestly mean to tell me that you start off by beating the living s**t out of begginers without even teaching them any techniques so that they can at least have a basic understanding about how to defend themselves first? Most people want to learn self-defence to avoid getting beaten up after all.......