Political Crossfire Forums

[anselfir]

cap'n queasy wrote: anselfir wrote: well, i dunno, his followers?

So this is a "savior" that is saved by his followers.

That's kind of interesting. I suppose that even Satan could be saved, but somehow I don't think Satanists would be able to pull that off, seeing how they are to busy "worshiping" themselves to care at all about their object of worship.

Pehaps this analogy is totally bogus, the meanderings of disturbed minds.

I mean after all, how is it that someone who insists that their version of Christianity, in which God the Father is accurately represented by one of the most evil people in popular fiction, is accurate. How could the mind that developed this analogy be said not to be at least a little disturbed?

That is a very strange ethos to follow, one would have to admit. Ah, but an interesting one! I want to read sholtz's commentary on everything.

[NAB]

I don't venture into this forum very often, but after the turn this topic has taken I might have take a look more often. 8:)

I know genius when I see it. :wink:

[anselfir]

we've gotten sholtz worshipper #1

[psholtz]

cap'n queasy wrote: anselfir wrote: The kneeling guy in teh pic

I watched star wars, and thought the message is basically, dont do bad things, or just simply dont go touching that weird black s**t, aka dark side of teh force

No, dude, who is Lando in the analogy.

Luke is supposedly Lucifer, who was cast out from Heaven.

But I don't seem to remember anyone being there to catch him.

So I was wondering who it was Lando represented.

But I guess you guys haven't thought that far ahead. :lol:
I don't know who Lando is in the analogy..

Hollywood script writers have to add stuff in to make their plots work and flow..

Remember in the *real* Bible, nobody is there to stop Lucifer's fall.. he falls all the way down into Hell. If Lucas did that in Star Wars, the series would've ended w/ Empire ... no Return of the Jedi, no I, II and III, no (or at least, not as much) mass marketing + consumerism + Star Wars gizmos (:shock:)

Remember too that in the Bible, Lucifer doesn't have a twin sister named Leia.. but I'm not sure if it's kosher for me to turn a thread that was originally about the morality of taxation into a teach-in about astrological symbolism and the meaning of the sign Gemini... :lol:


Gemini: The Twins

I suppose I misspoke somewhat earlier: it's not really Lando that saves Luke after his Fall.. it's Leia, his sister, his twin.

The Force comes to the rescue.. :lol:

The rebels were hightailing it out of Cloud City in the Falcon, w/ Luke dangling onto his life w/ just a thread, and then Leia suddenly has a premonition, and *knows* that she has to save Luke, and orders the Falcon turned around to save Luke.

To address your question about why the Father (Vader) is depicted as arch-evil, it's important to bear in mind the old Gnostic/Platonic teaching that the visible creation, the "lower "creation, the visible/sensible universe around us, that we can see, feel, hear, smell, touch, etc, that "lower" creation was the product of a Demiurgas.. an aborted "god".. a god who was a god only in his own mind, and no place else.

Generally speaking, mythologies that position Lucifer as the hero almost universally set him in opposition to this evil, abortive Demiurgas... and in Star Wars Luke is quite obviously set in opposition to Vader.

So I think Vader is probably meant to play the role of this demiurgas.

Hence (of course) he's going to personify evil.

Of course, as the saga unfolds, we gradually learn that Vader isn't really the *real* enemy... the Emperor is.

There's a very interesting point here, too.. in the last (or almost last) scene of Jedi, there's a showdown between the Emperor and Luke (Lucifer), w/ Dark Vader kinda hanging out on the sidelines, watching. What are Luke's feelings here? (<- Jedis are always taught to search their feelings, are they not?)

They are nothing about anger and bitterness and hate and revenge..

Completely negative, destructive emotions.

And so of course the Emperor makes quick work of Luke.

The Emperor is trained in how to grasp onto someone's negative emotions/character flaws, etc, and then use them against that individual (<- btw, this is exactly the same technique today's Ruling Establishment uses to enslave you -- in *real* life... they know precisely what your weaknesses are, and they pander to them, and they use your own weaknesses to further bind and enslave you.. you are, then, in a very real sense, the very author of your own slavery).

So Luke cannot kill the Emperor.

Luke is fighting from a basis of hate and anger, and this must always end in failure.

And if Luke *did* succeed in killing the Emperor, Luke (Lucifer) would have fallen to the Dark Side in the process.. for Luke would have given in to his own feelings of anger, hate, revenge.. (Is it not written in your Scriptures that "Revenge is mine, saith the Lord"?)

The Emperor even warns Luke about this, if I recall correctly.

So how does the Emperor die?

Vader (the Father) kills him..

(Remember that quote I just cited above, "Revenge is mine!,saith the Lord" .. you still think Vader is all that ... *evil*? or is he the instrument through which revenge works?)

And even more importantly, why does Vader kill him? What's Vader's motivation?

It's love..

Love for his Son..

Vader is sitting there, watching the Emperor beat up his Son, beat him up to w/in an inch of life, and then suddenly .. out of nowhere .. Vader is seized by the emotions of mercy and pity and - most importantly - Love for his Son.

It's *almost* a touching scene.. I'm being a slight bit melodramatic, but Lucas really did a brilliant job in the cinematography here, in that you can *almost* see the expression on Vader's face change in this scene. Instead of the evil, tough guy expression, you can *almost* see an expression of sadness and pity on Vader's face in this scene (and *only* this scene.. the cinemagraphy is really brilliant here).. you can *almost* see Vader shed a tear..

Interesting, btw, that Lucas choose to hide Vader behind a mask the way he did. About 90% of all human emotions express themselves through (and only through) the face. By hiding the face, Lucas effectively makes of Vader a creature lacking all emotion.

Anyway..

So Vader kills the Emperor.

He does it to save his Son.

And he does it out of Love.

"Revenge is mine, saith the Lord" (Deut 32:35, Romans 12:19)

So who *really* saves Lucifer in this story, cap'n?

And that end, it's *still* the Father.. it's still the Lord.. it's still the Law of Love.

[anselfir]

fdsahfhdjksahgjsdiaoyhfojisdahgijoashdfjkhdaL!!!1311111!11

if i weren't in an elevated position i'd be rolling right now. that was glorious

[psholtz]

perdidochas wrote: Jesus told his Apostles to buy a sword.
Generally speaking, in the Bible and in classical literature in general, swords are used to symbolize the Will..

That is how this verse - the one telling the Apostles to go buy a sword - should be interpreted.

It's an admonishment to develop a little bit of will power.

A great example of this is Shakespeare's Hamlet.


Hamlet promotional material almost
always prominently features Hamlet's sword

Throughout most of the play, even though Hamlet may be a 'swell' prince, he totally and utterly lacks willpower. "To be or not to be" a symptom of the fact that Hamlet can't make up his mind about anything.. Accordingly, even though Hamlet may be popular (or not so popular), whenever sword-fighting comes up his friends always flop over on the floor laughing, saying 'Hamlet, you may be cool and our friend and all, but seriously... You totally s*ck at sword-fighting!!!"

At one point, the possibility of Hamlet dueling someone in a swordfight comes up, and the response is "OMG! But Hamlet totally s*cks at sword-fighting! What the hell is he supposd to do?"

Conversely, there are other (minor) characters in the play - foils to Hamlet - who although they don't play significant roles, they are extremely strong willed, and are rumored in the play to be most excellent sword-fighters.

It's only late in the fourth act that Hamlet finally makes a speech to the effect that "I have made up my mind, I shall slay my uncle!" (<- I'm butchering that line, but it's something to that effect).

From that point forward, Hamlet rocks out at sword-fighting.. He's unstoppable w/ a sword in his hand.

Christ was using a similar message here to his apostles.

Grow a backbone and get yourself some willpower.

[anselfir]

that is great