Political Crossfire Forums

[Saracen]

John wrote: Please. Do not alter my posts.

I said.....there is NO doubt that God Almighty..the Holy One of Israel is worthy to be praised!

Ok, I won't, but I'd just like to point out that God Almighty is the Holy One of this universe, not just Israel.

[cap'n queasy]

Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

If there was no possibility of failure that what is the point. If a 500 pould butt ugly woman makes a pass at me and I manage to contain myslef, I would not be particularly proud of my self control.

You are saying that G-d fulfilled the law, I mean really woopededoo. He is G-d He should be able to fulfill the law. Especially since the law is a means to approach Him and He is already there. If I put on a dog suit and start talking, will people be amazed at the talking dog, no I am just some idiot who for some reason is wearing a dog suit.

My point is that G-d fulfilled the law by His very existence, the whole scene therefore of the tempting by Satan is a farce. There was literally no point to that episode.

I dunno...I'm personally pretty amazed that God did what he did. Isn't the main argument that you and Duchifas use is that God COULD have done what He did...but wouldn’t because it would be beneath Him? Now, think about that for a little bit…and you just might get why it is so amazing.

God fulfilled the Law by His very existence? Huh? What are you talking about? The Law has to do with MAN and His relationship with God....God did what He did to rebuild that bridge and serve as propitiation for man's sin. He did it so your spirit can be brought back alive and you can truly hear what God’s Law is saying. You see….when Adam sinned, his spirit died immediately, progressively in the soul and ultimately in the body. Messiah did what He did in order to fulfill the Law…through Him one can be born again and in that instant their spirit is re-born, their soul is progressively re-born and their body is ultimately re-born.

We are justified at the instant of salvation by the Spirit, sanctified progressively in the soul, and glorified ultimately in the body.

It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

Yep. :-D

why not create humans so that they could 'get to god's level' in the first place. then there wouldn't be any need for jesus the interpreter... :lol:

First of all, because they would then be gods themselves. And other beings just can't be on the level of God.

Think about how that would be, you would have a lot of people, who live forever with godlike powers, doing things the way they do on earth now, but they would be way, way worse because we would no that nothing would ever happen to us no matter what we did. We would turn out to be be like spoiled children with infinite powers who lived forever getting more and more bored, spoiled, psychotic, and evil every day.

I would also say God is developing perfected human beings along certain guidelines for some purpose. What is the reasoning behind creating an infinite vacation so people who don't really deserve it so they can just sit around doing nothing? We are going to have to be capable of fulfilling some ultimate purpose that God has for us. It is going to take people of loyalty, justice, righteousness, and faithfulness, for these are the qualities outlined in the scripture that humans should attain.

At least that's the way it seems to me when I consider the "why" of the big picture.

[cap'n queasy]

Saracen wrote: John wrote: Please. Do not alter my posts.

I said.....there is NO doubt that God Almighty..the Holy One of Israel is worthy to be praised!

Ok, I won't, but I'd just like to point out that God Almighty is the Holy One of this universe, not just Israel.

Well, yeah of course.
But Israel is a Light unto Nations.
God has used and still uses Israel to reveal Himself to the people of all the world. The nation of Israel was the first nation to know God, when all other nations worshiped false gods. Christian and Islamic nations who also worshiped God came along later.

The title "Holy One of Israel" is a kind of a term meant in respect for this designation that Israel has been given.

[Nathyn]

LetsGetReal wrote: You guys take Satan to be somewhat intelligent, do you not realize who he's going up against? Yet he still tries? What does that tell you of his character?
It tells me the authors of the NT weren't very good writers.

[Saracen]

cap'n queasy wrote: Saracen wrote: John wrote: Please. Do not alter my posts.

I said.....there is NO doubt that God Almighty..the Holy One of Israel is worthy to be praised!

Ok, I won't, but I'd just like to point out that God Almighty is the Holy One of this universe, not just Israel.

Well, yeah of course.
But Israel is a Light unto Nations.
God has used and still uses Israel to reveal Himself to the people of all the world. The nation of Israel was the first nation to know God, when all other nations worshiped false gods. Christian and Islamic nations who also worshiped God came along later.

The title "Holy One of Israel" is a kind of a term meant in respect for this designation that Israel has been given.

Just because the Israelites were the initial vessel for God's Message does not give Israel preference over other nations. All nations received the Message of God, not just the Israelites. The Israelites were God's Chosen, yes, but just because everything started with the Israelites doesn't make all other nations less chosen than the nation of Israel.

Also, this is rather "off-topic", but I disagree that Israel is revealing God to the world as it is now. I'm not talking about the Jewish people in general: most Jews if not all are God-fearing people. The state of Israel is material. Those Jews, Christians and Muslims who really follow their religion follow it with godliness in their hearts, no one better than the other.

[cap'n queasy]

Quote: The Israelites were God's Chosen, yes, but just because everything started with the Israelites doesn't make all other nations less chosen than the nation of Israel.

Well, I didn't say that they were "less chosen". I said God chose Israel for certain things, just like He has something in mind for us all.

I'm not sure if you are familiar with the story of Job, but his story is kind of like the story of Israel, in a way. He was chosen by God to prove God's greatness, and he did this with his faith that never broke no matter all the trials and tribulations that Satan put to him.

In the story while all these things were happening to Job, his friends sat around and discussed what he did wrong, kind of like people do with Israel, but Job never gave up faith in God no matter how bad it got and eventually he was justified for this faith, that he had kept through all the bad times he had.

[Angelicus]

Mailech wrote: perdidochas wrote: Of course Jesus was tempted. Jesus has the ability to sin. He chose not to. If Jesus wasn't tempted, then the whole story is absurd.

Well can G-d sin? Does G-d have an evil inclination?

God can do, whatever it is, that God chooses too do. He wouldn't be God otherwise.

Of course thats not to say he'll choose too do this or that particular thing.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

G-d did not come down to our level, if He did it would be most unG-dly. What he did, based on what you have said, is stage a little show, that no way reflected reality

[Mailech]

Random Evil Guy wrote: why not create humans so that they could 'get to god's level' in the first place. then there wouldn't be any need for jesus the interpreter... :lol:

No the better question would be, why would an omniscient G-d possibly expect that we could get on His level, and if he doesn't expect it, why set up a system that it is neccessary.

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

G-d did not come down to our level, if He did it would be most unG-dly. What he did, based on what you have said, is stage a little show, that no way reflected reality

If God never came down to our level, we wouldn't know He exists.

How could God reveal Himself on Mount Sinai if He had not come down to our level?

Mount Sinai is not all that high of a mountain. :wink:

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: why not create humans so that they could 'get to god's level' in the first place. then there wouldn't be any need for jesus the interpreter... :lol:

No the better question would be, why would an omniscient G-d possibly expect that we could get on His level, and if he doesn't expect it, why set up a system that it is neccessary.

Well, I would say that the answer to that is that He didn't set it up that way at all.

:lol:

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

G-d did not come down to our level, if He did it would be most unG-dly. What he did, based on what you have said, is stage a little show, that no way reflected reality

If God never came down to our level, we wouldn't know He exists.

How could God reveal Himself on Mount Sinai if He had not come down to our level?

Mount Sinai is not all that high of a mountain. :wink:

I know that was just a joke.

There is a vast difference between communicating with beings under you and becoming one of them. I can talk to a dog and make my presense felt, but I cannot become a dog.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: why not create humans so that they could 'get to god's level' in the first place. then there wouldn't be any need for jesus the interpreter... :lol:

No the better question would be, why would an omniscient G-d possibly expect that we could get on His level, and if he doesn't expect it, why set up a system that it is neccessary.

Well, I would say that the answer to that is that He didn't set it up that way at all.

:lol:
Are you saying that G-d is incapable of rolling with the punches?

[Mailech]

Angelicus wrote: Mailech wrote: perdidochas wrote: Of course Jesus was tempted. Jesus has the ability to sin. He chose not to. If Jesus wasn't tempted, then the whole story is absurd.

Well can G-d sin? Does G-d have an evil inclination?

God can do, whatever it is, that God chooses too do. He wouldn't be God otherwise.

Of course thats not to say he'll choose too do this or that particular thing.
So you are saying that G-d could have been tempted to worship Satan?

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: why not create humans so that they could 'get to god's level' in the first place. then there wouldn't be any need for jesus the interpreter... :lol:

No the better question would be, why would an omniscient G-d possibly expect that we could get on His level, and if he doesn't expect it, why set up a system that it is neccessary.

Well, I would say that the answer to that is that He didn't set it up that way at all.

:lol:
Are you saying that G-d is incapable of rolling with the punches?

I don't think there is any need for God to "roll with the punches". No one can "punch" God.

I don't understand what you mean by that. Or why you saiud it.

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

G-d did not come down to our level, if He did it would be most unG-dly. What he did, based on what you have said, is stage a little show, that no way reflected reality

If God never came down to our level, we wouldn't know He exists.

How could God reveal Himself on Mount Sinai if He had not come down to our level?

Mount Sinai is not all that high of a mountain. :wink:

I know that was just a joke.

There is a vast difference between communicating with beings under you and becoming one of them. I can talk to a dog and make my presense felt, but I cannot become a dog.

Communicating with an animal requires that you come down to his level, by using simple commands that it can understand.

[John]

Mailech wrote: Angelicus wrote: Mailech wrote: perdidochas wrote: Of course Jesus was tempted. Jesus has the ability to sin. He chose not to. If Jesus wasn't tempted, then the whole story is absurd.

Well can G-d sin? Does G-d have an evil inclination?

God can do, whatever it is, that God chooses too do. He wouldn't be God otherwise.

Of course thats not to say he'll choose too do this or that particular thing.
So you are saying that G-d could have been tempted to worship Satan?


You worship Satan every time you commit a sin, you commit high treason so to speak...and the Accuser demands your death.

I know you're gonna have a hard time understanding that...but it's true. Satan tempted Jesus to take the easy way out...to go against God's nature so to speak. Yet, this is something that Messiah didn't do...because He was in fact God Himself....and as you said in an earlier post...God can't get any closer than Himself. I personally believe that Satan thought he had God trapped when God took upon human flesh...because God can't break His own rules without being shown to be unjust and unworthy of worship. But God understood the rules a little better Satan did. :wink: God Himself...took upon the sin of man in His own flesh without Himself actually committing a sin, and in doing so broke the curse. Think of it like a court case where Satan was found guilty of planting evidence on an innocent man......Jesus was given the penalty of sin, yet He had never sinned. Now, if the prosecutor is found tampering with evidence it throws out his whole case...and this is what I believe happened here.

[Random Evil Guy]

John wrote: Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

If there was no possibility of failure that what is the point. If a 500 pould butt ugly woman makes a pass at me and I manage to contain myslef, I would not be particularly proud of my self control.

You are saying that G-d fulfilled the law, I mean really woopededoo. He is G-d He should be able to fulfill the law. Especially since the law is a means to approach Him and He is already there. If I put on a dog suit and start talking, will people be amazed at the talking dog, no I am just some idiot who for some reason is wearing a dog suit.

My point is that G-d fulfilled the law by His very existence, the whole scene therefore of the tempting by Satan is a farce. There was literally no point to that episode.

I dunno...I'm personally pretty amazed that God did what he did. Isn't the main argument that you and Duchifas use is that God COULD have done what He did...but wouldn’t because it would be beneath Him? Now, think about that for a little bit…and you just might get why it is so amazing.

God fulfilled the Law by His very existence? Huh? What are you talking about? The Law has to do with MAN and His relationship with God....God did what He did to rebuild that bridge and serve as propitiation for man's sin. He did it so your spirit can be brought back alive and you can truly hear what God’s Law is saying. You see….when Adam sinned, his spirit died immediately, progressively in the soul and ultimately in the body. Messiah did what He did in order to fulfill the Law…through Him one can be born again and in that instant their spirit is re-born, their soul is progressively re-born and their body is ultimately re-born.

We are justified at the instant of salvation by the Spirit, sanctified progressively in the soul, and glorified ultimately in the body.

It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

Yep. :-D

why not create humans so that they could 'get to god's level' in the first place. then there wouldn't be any need for jesus the interpreter... :lol:

He did. Man was created sinless and in perfect relationship with God.

well, obviously not sinless enough as they did sin and all it took was 30 sec conversation with a snake... not very good craftsmanship from god.

[Mailech]

cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

G-d did not come down to our level, if He did it would be most unG-dly. What he did, based on what you have said, is stage a little show, that no way reflected reality

If God never came down to our level, we wouldn't know He exists.

How could God reveal Himself on Mount Sinai if He had not come down to our level?

Mount Sinai is not all that high of a mountain. :wink:

I know that was just a joke.

There is a vast difference between communicating with beings under you and becoming one of them. I can talk to a dog and make my presense felt, but I cannot become a dog.

Communicating with an animal requires that you come down to his level, by using simple commands that it can understand.
Oh I wsa refering to something else, but based on your definition, He did not need to be Jesus, since He was capable of "coming down to our level" at Sinai.

[cap'n queasy]

Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: Mailech wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

G-d did not come down to our level, if He did it would be most unG-dly. What he did, based on what you have said, is stage a little show, that no way reflected reality

If God never came down to our level, we wouldn't know He exists.

How could God reveal Himself on Mount Sinai if He had not come down to our level?

Mount Sinai is not all that high of a mountain. :wink:

I know that was just a joke.

There is a vast difference between communicating with beings under you and becoming one of them. I can talk to a dog and make my presense felt, but I cannot become a dog.

Communicating with an animal requires that you come down to his level, by using simple commands that it can understand.
Oh I wsa refering to something else, but based on your definition, He did not need to be Jesus, since He was capable of "coming down to our level" at Sinai.

Yes. And He did that.

But there is also a New Covenant that had to be transmitted to the world.
This is what Christians believe Y'shua did.