Political Crossfire Forums

[LetsGetReal]

You guys take Satan to be somewhat intelligent, do you not realize who he's going up against? Yet he still tries? What does that tell you of his character?

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

If there was no possibility of failure that what is the point. If a 500 pould butt ugly woman makes a pass at me and I manage to contain myslef, I would not be particularly proud of my self control.

You are saying that G-d fulfilled the law, I mean really woopededoo. He is G-d He should be able to fulfill the law. Especially since the law is a means to approach Him and He is already there. If I put on a dog suit and start talking, will people be amazed at the talking dog, no I am just some idiot who for some reason is wearing a dog suit.

My point is that G-d fulfilled the law by His very existence, the whole scene therefore of the tempting by Satan is a farce. There was literally no point to that episode.

I dunno...I'm personally pretty amazed that God did what he did. Isn't the main argument that you and Duchifas use is that God COULD have done what He did...but wouldn’t because it would be beneath Him? Now, think about that for a little bit…and you just might get why it is so amazing.

God fulfilled the Law by His very existence? Huh? What are you talking about? The Law has to do with MAN and His relationship with God....God did what He did to rebuild that bridge and serve as propitiation for man's sin. He did it so your spirit can be brought back alive and you can truly hear what God’s Law is saying. You see….when Adam sinned, his spirit died immediately, progressively in the soul and ultimately in the body. Messiah did what He did in order to fulfill the Law…through Him one can be born again and in that instant their spirit is re-born, their soul is progressively re-born and their body is ultimately re-born.

We are justified at the instant of salvation by the Spirit, sanctified progressively in the soul, and glorified ultimately in the body.

[Mailech]

John wrote: I dunno...I'm personally pretty amazed that God did what he did. Isn't the main argument that you and Duchifas use is that God COULD have done what He did...but wouldn’t because it would be beneath Him? Now, think about that for a little bit…and you just might get why it is so amazing. I do not say that G-d could do what Jesus is claimed to have done but it is beneath him, I have said that G-d cannot un-G-d Himself to take human form.

Quote: God fulfilled the Law by His very existence? Huh? What are you talking about? The Law has to do with MAN and His relationship with God....God did what He did to rebuild that bridge and serve as propitiation for man's sin. He did it so your spirit can be brought back alive and you can truly hear what God’s Law is saying. You see….when Adam sinned, his spirit died immediately, progressively in the soul and ultimately in the body. Messiah did what He did in order to fulfill the Law…through Him one can be born again and in that instant their spirit is re-born, their soul is progressively re-born and their body is ultimately re-born.

The Law is about getting close to G-d, and G-d is as close as you can get to Himself. But here is another point. One person cannot fulfill the law for everyone else. I have to improve myself to get myself to a closer relationship to G-d. G-d will pull me along the way as long as I try, but I cannot pull someone else along the way behind me just because of my fulfillment.

[John]

Quote: I do not say that G-d could do what Jesus is claimed to have done but it is beneath him, I have said that G-d cannot un-G-d Himself to take human form.

Well, you're a braver man than I to say such a thing. BTW...no one ever said that God "un-Goded" Himself. It's more along the lines of that He incarnated Himself in the form of a human being...and that this incarnation was the physical essense of who God is. That if you were to sit and talk to Jesus, you would be talking to the very personality of God Himself, the same can be said about a true understanding of Torah. Yet God being Almighty was still in all places and in all times...outside the very nature of time itself.

[John]

Quote: The Law is about getting close to G-d, and G-d is as close as you can get to Himself. But here is another point. One person cannot fulfill the law for everyone else. I have to improve myself to get myself to a closer relationship to G-d. G-d will pull me along the way as long as I try, but I cannot pull someone else along the way behind me just because of my fulfillment.

Getting close to someone and having a relationship with them...means the same exact thing.

You're missing the point God fulfilled the Law by completing the purpose of the Law. The Law's purpose is to coase us to be aware of what we lack. It says...Don't Steal, so that if you are a thief you know that you are not in agreement with God. One thing that comes apparent if you are honest with yourself and truly look at the Law with a sincere heart...is that you are not in agreement in God. You can reas the Law and not come to the conclusion that you are a sinner.

Messiah took on the sin of the world as the Pascal lamb...His blood covers our sin and in the substance that having Faith in will bring us back into relationship with God. When one is covered by the blood, and God sees the faith in this blood covering them, God will cause the spirit of that person to come back into agreement with God...to come alive so to speak. It is only after ones spirit is alive and in agreement with God's Spirit by continually being regenerated by God's Spirit that one can truly fulfill the Law. This in itself is a fulfillment of the Law. It is only when a man is truly walking in God's Spirit that he can truly love God with all his being and love his neighbor as himself.

[mODULAR mAN]

LetsGetReal wrote: You guys take Satan to be somewhat intelligent, do you not realize who he's going up against? Yet he still tries? What does that tell you of his character?

Uh, he was smart enough to get Jesus to follow him around, is smart enough to maintain evil in the world, smart enough to challange God for eternity...

(I'm talking as if he really exists... :roll: Bad me!)

[toddytodd]

Mailech wrote: toddytodd wrote: I agree - makes perfect sense.
But let's say that this temptation did happen. Satan would have known who and what Jesus was, so the tempting would have been futile and a waste of time and effort on his part. It thus makes me wonder if Satan thought Jesus wasn't the Messiah/Christ/Son of God [insert whatever term you wish to use here].
So it would seem that either this story never happened, or Satan knew Jesus was who the bible claims him to be and tried tempting him.... :think:

Well the answer from the Christian perpective would be (I assume) that it jsut goes to show the arrogance of Satan that he thinks he can get G-d Himself to worship him.

Let's not confuse arrogance with stupidity (although it happens quite frequently today). People like to think the devil, because he is evil :roll: is ignorant. That is a misconception. However, I have been told this type of reasoning by church leaders, which I, personally, don't buy at all.
What I do buy is the fact that this story was told (and re-told and re-told and re-told etc) to humanize Jesus to put him on a level that was almost equal to the 'everyday man' of the time to pave the way for other christian propaganda.
Let's see if it makes sense:
1) A perfect (without sin) supernatural being becoming man (who is with sin, but not this time) and being tempting by another supernatural being (assuming the tempting being knows what he is dealing with) tries, against even human common sense, to tempt a perfect sinless being... :think:, or
2) A story told by imperfect people to humanize their belief in a perfect supernatural being... :think:
I vote for option 2.
But to each their own.

[Mailech]

John wrote: It's more along the lines of that He incarnated Himself in the form of a human being...and that this incarnation was the physical essense of who God is.

G-d's essense can in no way be defined in the phyiscal form. It is too much for physicallity.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: It's more along the lines of that He incarnated Himself in the form of a human being...and that this incarnation was the physical essense of who God is.

G-d's essense can in no way be defined in the phyiscal form. It is too much for physicallity.

So Torah is just a book?

[toddytodd]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: It's more along the lines of that He incarnated Himself in the form of a human being...and that this incarnation was the physical essense of who God is.

G-d's essense can in no way be defined in the phyiscal form. It is too much for physicallity.

So Torah is just a book?

Aren't all books just books?

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: It's more along the lines of that He incarnated Himself in the form of a human being...and that this incarnation was the physical essense of who God is.

G-d's essense can in no way be defined in the phyiscal form. It is too much for physicallity.

So Torah is just a book?

I had a nice weekend too.

What the are you talking about?

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: It's more along the lines of that He incarnated Himself in the form of a human being...and that this incarnation was the physical essense of who God is.

G-d's essense can in no way be defined in the phyiscal form. It is too much for physicallity.

So Torah is just a book?

I had a nice weekend too.

What the are you talking about?

Oh..I thought you knew...nevermind.

[John]

toddytodd wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: It's more along the lines of that He incarnated Himself in the form of a human being...and that this incarnation was the physical essense of who God is.

G-d's essense can in no way be defined in the phyiscal form. It is too much for physicallity.

So Torah is just a book?

Aren't all books just books?

No.

[cap'n queasy]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

If there was no possibility of failure that what is the point. If a 500 pould butt ugly woman makes a pass at me and I manage to contain myslef, I would not be particularly proud of my self control.

You are saying that G-d fulfilled the law, I mean really woopededoo. He is G-d He should be able to fulfill the law. Especially since the law is a means to approach Him and He is already there. If I put on a dog suit and start talking, will people be amazed at the talking dog, no I am just some idiot who for some reason is wearing a dog suit.

My point is that G-d fulfilled the law by His very existence, the whole scene therefore of the tempting by Satan is a farce. There was literally no point to that episode.

I dunno...I'm personally pretty amazed that God did what he did. Isn't the main argument that you and Duchifas use is that God COULD have done what He did...but wouldn’t because it would be beneath Him? Now, think about that for a little bit…and you just might get why it is so amazing.

God fulfilled the Law by His very existence? Huh? What are you talking about? The Law has to do with MAN and His relationship with God....God did what He did to rebuild that bridge and serve as propitiation for man's sin. He did it so your spirit can be brought back alive and you can truly hear what God’s Law is saying. You see….when Adam sinned, his spirit died immediately, progressively in the soul and ultimately in the body. Messiah did what He did in order to fulfill the Law…through Him one can be born again and in that instant their spirit is re-born, their soul is progressively re-born and their body is ultimately re-born.

We are justified at the instant of salvation by the Spirit, sanctified progressively in the soul, and glorified ultimately in the body.

It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

[toddytodd]

John wrote: toddytodd wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: It's more along the lines of that He incarnated Himself in the form of a human being...and that this incarnation was the physical essense of who God is.

G-d's essense can in no way be defined in the phyiscal form. It is too much for physicallity.

So Torah is just a book?

Aren't all books just books?

No.

Sorry to inform you, in our reality, a book is literally a book. You choose to make it more in your own reality, but a book is still a book.
:cry
When people start making books 'more than just books', question of their mental fortitude must be brought to the forefront.

[John]

cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

If there was no possibility of failure that what is the point. If a 500 pould butt ugly woman makes a pass at me and I manage to contain myslef, I would not be particularly proud of my self control.

You are saying that G-d fulfilled the law, I mean really woopededoo. He is G-d He should be able to fulfill the law. Especially since the law is a means to approach Him and He is already there. If I put on a dog suit and start talking, will people be amazed at the talking dog, no I am just some idiot who for some reason is wearing a dog suit.

My point is that G-d fulfilled the law by His very existence, the whole scene therefore of the tempting by Satan is a farce. There was literally no point to that episode.

I dunno...I'm personally pretty amazed that God did what he did. Isn't the main argument that you and Duchifas use is that God COULD have done what He did...but wouldn’t because it would be beneath Him? Now, think about that for a little bit…and you just might get why it is so amazing.

God fulfilled the Law by His very existence? Huh? What are you talking about? The Law has to do with MAN and His relationship with God....God did what He did to rebuild that bridge and serve as propitiation for man's sin. He did it so your spirit can be brought back alive and you can truly hear what God’s Law is saying. You see….when Adam sinned, his spirit died immediately, progressively in the soul and ultimately in the body. Messiah did what He did in order to fulfill the Law…through Him one can be born again and in that instant their spirit is re-born, their soul is progressively re-born and their body is ultimately re-born.

We are justified at the instant of salvation by the Spirit, sanctified progressively in the soul, and glorified ultimately in the body.

It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

Yep. :-D

[mODULAR mAN]

LetsGetReal wrote: You guys take Satan to be somewhat intelligent, do you not realize who he's going up against? Yet he still tries? What does that tell you of his character?

He's got moxy? He's a never-say-die fighter? The consumate underdog that never says no? The guy who works hard despite the odds? A true American?

[anselfir]

Satan is a bit of a trickster. he is not technically doing anything wrong, just creating some dilemmas.

[Random Evil Guy]

John wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

If there was no possibility of failure that what is the point. If a 500 pould butt ugly woman makes a pass at me and I manage to contain myslef, I would not be particularly proud of my self control.

You are saying that G-d fulfilled the law, I mean really woopededoo. He is G-d He should be able to fulfill the law. Especially since the law is a means to approach Him and He is already there. If I put on a dog suit and start talking, will people be amazed at the talking dog, no I am just some idiot who for some reason is wearing a dog suit.

My point is that G-d fulfilled the law by His very existence, the whole scene therefore of the tempting by Satan is a farce. There was literally no point to that episode.

I dunno...I'm personally pretty amazed that God did what he did. Isn't the main argument that you and Duchifas use is that God COULD have done what He did...but wouldn’t because it would be beneath Him? Now, think about that for a little bit…and you just might get why it is so amazing.

God fulfilled the Law by His very existence? Huh? What are you talking about? The Law has to do with MAN and His relationship with God....God did what He did to rebuild that bridge and serve as propitiation for man's sin. He did it so your spirit can be brought back alive and you can truly hear what God’s Law is saying. You see….when Adam sinned, his spirit died immediately, progressively in the soul and ultimately in the body. Messiah did what He did in order to fulfill the Law…through Him one can be born again and in that instant their spirit is re-born, their soul is progressively re-born and their body is ultimately re-born.

We are justified at the instant of salvation by the Spirit, sanctified progressively in the soul, and glorified ultimately in the body.

It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

Yep. :-D

why not create humans so that they could 'get to god's level' in the first place. then there wouldn't be any need for jesus the interpreter... :lol:

[John]

Random Evil Guy wrote: John wrote: cap'n queasy wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

If there was no possibility of failure that what is the point. If a 500 pould butt ugly woman makes a pass at me and I manage to contain myslef, I would not be particularly proud of my self control.

You are saying that G-d fulfilled the law, I mean really woopededoo. He is G-d He should be able to fulfill the law. Especially since the law is a means to approach Him and He is already there. If I put on a dog suit and start talking, will people be amazed at the talking dog, no I am just some idiot who for some reason is wearing a dog suit.

My point is that G-d fulfilled the law by His very existence, the whole scene therefore of the tempting by Satan is a farce. There was literally no point to that episode.

I dunno...I'm personally pretty amazed that God did what he did. Isn't the main argument that you and Duchifas use is that God COULD have done what He did...but wouldn’t because it would be beneath Him? Now, think about that for a little bit…and you just might get why it is so amazing.

God fulfilled the Law by His very existence? Huh? What are you talking about? The Law has to do with MAN and His relationship with God....God did what He did to rebuild that bridge and serve as propitiation for man's sin. He did it so your spirit can be brought back alive and you can truly hear what God’s Law is saying. You see….when Adam sinned, his spirit died immediately, progressively in the soul and ultimately in the body. Messiah did what He did in order to fulfill the Law…through Him one can be born again and in that instant their spirit is re-born, their soul is progressively re-born and their body is ultimately re-born.

We are justified at the instant of salvation by the Spirit, sanctified progressively in the soul, and glorified ultimately in the body.

It's kind of like we don't have what it takes to get to God's level, so in His wisdom He created a way for Him to come down to our level.

Yep. :-D

why not create humans so that they could 'get to god's level' in the first place. then there wouldn't be any need for jesus the interpreter... :lol:

He did. Man was created sinless and in perfect relationship with God.