Political Crossfire Forums

[Nathyn]

John wrote: Quote: There certainly isn't any evidence in the Old Testament of a Trinity. From what I understand, what Christians call the "holy spirit," is what Jews call "the presence of God" (shechinah), but shechinah is simply the presence of God, not a God in and of itself. It's frankly bizarre to think that God, all of a sudden one day decided to split into three parts.

How is eternity even divisible?

Who ever said eternity was divisible or that the Holy Spirit is a God in and of Himself?

The Trinity is more of an understanding that God exists in dimensions higher that the one we live in.

We’re like a square that lives in a 2D dimension trying to understand a cube in a 3D one. One square would say to the other..”the cube is 6 squares yet is one”..and the other would say, “That’s impossible” well, yes if you limit the understanding to a 2D reality.
The problem is that one of those dimensions is a man and nothing can rationalize that to argue that it isn't idolatry.

[John]

Nathyn wrote: John wrote: Quote: There certainly isn't any evidence in the Old Testament of a Trinity. From what I understand, what Christians call the "holy spirit," is what Jews call "the presence of God" (shechinah), but shechinah is simply the presence of God, not a God in and of itself. It's frankly bizarre to think that God, all of a sudden one day decided to split into three parts.

How is eternity even divisible?

Who ever said eternity was divisible or that the Holy Spirit is a God in and of Himself?

The Trinity is more of an understanding that God exists in dimensions higher that the one we live in.

We’re like a square that lives in a 2D dimension trying to understand a cube in a 3D one. One square would say to the other..”the cube is 6 squares yet is one”..and the other would say, “That’s impossible” well, yes if you limit the understanding to a 2D reality.
The problem is that one of those dimensions is a man and nothing can rationalize that to argue that it isn't idolatry.

It's idolatry to try and limit God to our small reality.

The point being that the doctrine of the Trinity is not idolatrous and its believed to have been revealed to men by God Himself. You can believe what you want and say what you want....I'll only step in if I see you trying to re-define the belief as something different than what it is.

[John]

Saracen wrote: John wrote: I think you have missed the message. The Flesh that clothed God was temped...but because He was God...He was able to resist the temptation and be without sin. Yet "He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him."

Sorry... had a dinner break... plus, I'm studying.

Regarding your post, it has a lot to do with the topic of Original Sin, which we respectfully agreed to disagree over last time.

Quote: Then what hope do you have?

Hope comes from faith in God and God alone.

Faith in what? Faith that God is just going to look past the fact that you're a sinful man? DO you have faith in God...or faith in your religion? Because from what I've read from you...you seem to think that you're gonna earn favor with God through proper actions on your part. That's putting faith in yourself.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Think of it this way...when God incarnated Himself as a man...He took on the "desires" that is inherent in having flesh...the "animal instincts" some would say.

But what is sinning, it is when the desires of the flesh overcome the desires of the spirit for evil. That means that even in you take "G-d's spirit" and throw it into a human body, forgetting that it is then limiting this infinite spirit, since G-d's spirit is perfect how could it possibly lose the battle with his flesh?

Also I would love to hear an answer for this question:
Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?


John wrote: ...there is NO doubt that God Almighty..the Holy One of Israel is worthy to be praised! Amen!

[Mailech]

John wrote: Faith in what? Faith that God is just going to look past the fact that you're a sinful man? DO you have faith in God...or faith in your religion? Because from what I've read from you...you seem to think that you're gonna earn favor with God through proper actions on your part. That's putting faith in yourself.

Faith that G-d will keep his promises and that G-d in His infinite knowledge and justice can judge us according to who we are and not according to who we are not.

If G-d knows that we are unable to perfectly keep the law, why would He judge us to that standard? Should a severely mentally retarded person be put to death if he kills someone?

[Mailech]

John wrote: The Trinity is more of an understanding that God exists in dimensions higher that the one we live in.

We’re like a square that lives in a 2D dimension trying to understand a cube in a 3D one. One square would say to the other..”the cube is 6 squares yet is one”..and the other would say, “That’s impossible” well, yes if you limit the understanding to a 2D reality.

Why three then, in the Torah G-d is called by many names, each one relates to a different aspect or attribute of G-d, further there is enumerated the 13 attributes, also each one is a way of interacting / viewing G-d. When we describe our interactions with G-d in our limited understanding there are much more than three aspects in the Torah, did the Gospels get rid of the others?

[mODULAR mAN]

John wrote: ...there is NO doubt that God Almighty..the Holy One of Israel is worthy to be praised!

I disagree, I think the imaginary being of Israel is not worth the spittle formed on the lips of fanatics. Even if he did exist, he isn't worth worshipping since one must earn respect and I don't see where this "god" earned my respect.

[toddytodd]

Mailech wrote: What is this all about?
If Jesus really is G-d, could Satan really tempt the perfect being into rebeling against Himself.
If Satan really could have tempted Jesus, then how could he be a G-d. One does not have a hope of successfully tempting G-d.

If therefore Jesus had no way that he would be tempted by Satan, what would be the point of the story.

Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

If there was no real possibility that he could have been tempted then the whole notion that he as G-d walked among us and experienced temptation like us so that he could empathize with us and therefore die for our sins is a farce!
I have often wondered the same thing. When I asked, the answer I got was always "He was a man, too." Regardless of this 'fact', if there was any 'God in him', it would have been a futile attempt. The only worth I could see with this story is that is was told in an attempt to try to 'humanize God' to make him more understandable to the human reader/listener. That said, if Jesus was really any part God, this, in my opinion, never happened.

[John]

Quote: But what is sinning, it is when the desires of the flesh overcome the desires of the spirit for evil. That means that even in you take "G-d's spirit" and throw it into a human body, forgetting that it is then limiting this infinite spirit, since G-d's spirit is perfect how could it possibly lose the battle with his flesh?

Well, He didn't lose...He passed with flying colors. I guess the point that you're making is that if what I'm saying is true...then God had an unfair advantage over us human who were born into a sinful nature. And you'd be 100% correct. But why would this bother you? it was this unfair advantage that made it possible for Him to complete the work where we couldn't.

For example, if you were drowning in a raging river, and a man with sure footing on the bank threw you his hand and could pull you in; you wouldn't say "Hey, no fair...you have an unfair advantage over me!" Well duh...it's through this advantage that makes it possible for him to save you.

[John]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: The Trinity is more of an understanding that God exists in dimensions higher that the one we live in.

We’re like a square that lives in a 2D dimension trying to understand a cube in a 3D one. One square would say to the other..”the cube is 6 squares yet is one”..and the other would say, “That’s impossible” well, yes if you limit the understanding to a 2D reality.

Why three then, in the Torah G-d is called by many names, each one relates to a different aspect or attribute of G-d, further there is enumerated the 13 attributes, also each one is a way of interacting / viewing G-d. When we describe our interactions with G-d in our limited understanding there are much more than three aspects in the Torah, did the Gospels get rid of the others?

I dunno why three...that what is shown in the scripture and we accept that on Faith.

Why are the basic building blocks of all material made up of three parts (protons, neutrons and electrons)? Why does the universe consist of time matter and space? Why is matter able to exist in three states? Solid, liquid and gas. Why do we relate to our physicality in length, height and depth? Why does man consist of body, mind and spirit?

I think your confusion lies with thinking that the "three persons" are mere attributes, when it's a little deeper than that. Some how, in the deeper existence of the Almighty, these three make up the very nature of the One true God. They are one and the same yet distinct...it's not something that we can fully understand. But I can assure you it isn't three different Gods. It's One God with a nature that is beyond our comprehension...which according to scripture is described as three person....but I'll repeat...it doesn't mean that they are three different persons...it just means that there is relationship between the three. I think it's kinda like how a man is body mind and spirit.....but we're not perfect like God...our minds and bodies and especially our spirits are not in perfect relationship with each other. In fact, they seem to be at odds with one another. The body wants to sleep but the mind want to be active, the spirit wants to worship God, but the body wants to eat. Ect ect ect....

[John]

Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

[John]

mODULAR mAN wrote: John wrote: ...there is NO doubt that God Almighty..the Holy One of Israel is worthy to be praised!

I disagree, I think the imaginary being of Israel is not worth the spittle formed on the lips of fanatics. Even if he did exist, he isn't worth worshipping since one must earn respect and I don't see where this "god" earned my respect.

Well, He is to me. I persoanlly happen to love Him with all my heart. Please refrain from speaking against the ones I love. Thanks.

[sparsely]

there comes a point in the lives of the brilliant when a decision must be made. One can sell their knowledge and use it to become powerful, rich, and dominant. Or one can share it freely as they received it, to the benefit of all. One cannot love mankind and money.

Whether these tempting forces are men or spirits is of little consequence, the principles are the same.

[Saracen]

John wrote: Faith in what? Faith that God is just going to look past the fact that you're a sinful man? DO you have faith in God...or faith in your religion? Because from what I've read from you...you seem to think that you're gonna earn favor with God through proper actions on your part. That's putting faith in yourself.

I have faith in God, not in Islam. Because of Islam, I have faith in God. To earn faith in God, I have to earn His Favor out of my actions and following His Commandments. If I didn't believe in God, why should I follow what He says?

Quote: ...there is NO doubt that God Almighty is worthy to be praised!

Amen, indeed.

Mailech wrote: Why three then, in the Torah G-d is called by many names, each one relates to a different aspect or attribute of G-d, further there is enumerated the 13 attributes, also each one is a way of interacting / viewing G-d. When we describe our interactions with G-d in our limited understanding there are much more than three aspects in the Torah, did the Gospels get rid of the others?

Interesting... that sounds like God's 99 attributes.

[John]

Quote: ...there is NO doubt that God Almighty is worthy to be praised!

Saracen wrote: Amen, indeed.


Please. Do not alter my posts.

I said.....there is NO doubt that God Almighty..the Holy One of Israel is worthy to be praised!

[Mailech]

John wrote: I dunno why three...that what is shown in the scripture and we accept that on Faith.

Why are the basic building blocks of all material made up of three parts (protons, neutrons and electrons)? Why does the universe consist of time matter and space? Why is matter able to exist in three states? Solid, liquid and gas. Why do we relate to our physicality in length, height and depth? Why does man consist of body, mind and spirit? Actually the real building blocks are quarks of which there are 6, also if you want to go to elementary particles there are also neutrinos, positrons, muons, mesons etc. If you want to talk about strings, they exist in 10 dimensions.
The universe consists of time matter space and energy, and if you say that matter and energy are the same I can say that space and time are the same. You are just picking arbitrary things to fit your paridigm.

Quote: I think your confusion lies with thinking that the "three persons" are mere attributes, when it's a little deeper than that. Some how, in the deeper existence of the Almighty, these three make up the very nature of the One true God. They are one and the same yet distinct...it's not something that we can fully understand. But I can assure you it isn't three different Gods. It's One God with a nature that is beyond our comprehension...which according to scripture is described as three person....but I'll repeat...it doesn't mean that they are three different persons...it just means that there is relationship between the three. I think it's kinda like how a man is body mind and spirit.....but we're not perfect like God...our minds and bodies and especially our spirits are not in perfect relationship with each other. In fact, they seem to be at odds with one another. The body wants to sleep but the mind want to be active, the spirit wants to worship God, but the body wants to eat. Ect ect ect....
Yes I think that is where the problem is, I forgot that and thanks for reminding me.

[Mailech]

John wrote: Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

If there was no possibility of failure that what is the point. If a 500 pould butt ugly woman makes a pass at me and I manage to contain myslef, I would not be particularly proud of my self control.

You are saying that G-d fulfilled the law, I mean really woopededoo. He is G-d He should be able to fulfill the law. Especially since the law is a means to approach Him and He is already there. If I put on a dog suit and start talking, will people be amazed at the talking dog, no I am just some idiot who for some reason is wearing a dog suit.

My point is that G-d fulfilled the law by His very existence, the whole scene therefore of the tempting by Satan is a farce. There was literally no point to that episode.

[toddytodd]

Mailech wrote: John wrote: Mailech wrote: Further Jesus was tempted. Was there ever a real possibility that Jesus could be tempted. If that possibility is there what would have happened had he succumbed and worshipped Satan, would that be the end of the world?

Jesus was temped, but there was never a possibility that He would fail. That would have made God a liar since the Messiah was prophesied to prevail over the evil one...and yeah...I guess if God was ever proven to be a liar...that would be the end of everything.

If there was no possibility of failure that what is the point. If a 500 pould butt ugly woman makes a pass at me and I manage to contain myslef, I would not be particularly proud of my self control.

You are saying that G-d fulfilled the law, I mean really woopededoo. He is G-d He should be able to fulfill the law. Especially since the law is a means to approach Him and He is already there. If I put on a dog suit and start talking, will people be amazed at the talking dog, no I am just some idiot who for some reason is wearing a dog suit.

My point is that G-d fulfilled the law by His very existence, the whole scene therefore of the tempting by Satan is a farce. There was literally no point to that episode.

I agree - makes perfect sense.
But let's say that this temptation did happen. Satan would have known who and what Jesus was, so the tempting would have been futile and a waste of time and effort on his part. It thus makes me wonder if Satan thought Jesus wasn't the Messiah/Christ/Son of God [insert whatever term you wish to use here].
So it would seem that either this story never happened, or Satan knew Jesus was who the bible claims him to be and tried tempting him.... :think:

[Mailech]

toddytodd wrote: I agree - makes perfect sense.
But let's say that this temptation did happen. Satan would have known who and what Jesus was, so the tempting would have been futile and a waste of time and effort on his part. It thus makes me wonder if Satan thought Jesus wasn't the Messiah/Christ/Son of God [insert whatever term you wish to use here].
So it would seem that either this story never happened, or Satan knew Jesus was who the bible claims him to be and tried tempting him.... :think:

Well the answer from the Christian perpective would be (I assume) that it jsut goes to show the arrogance of Satan that he thinks he can get G-d Himself to worship him.

[LetsGetReal]

Mailech wrote: toddytodd wrote: I agree - makes perfect sense.
But let's say that this temptation did happen. Satan would have known who and what Jesus was, so the tempting would have been futile and a waste of time and effort on his part. It thus makes me wonder if Satan thought Jesus wasn't the Messiah/Christ/Son of God [insert whatever term you wish to use here].
So it would seem that either this story never happened, or Satan knew Jesus was who the bible claims him to be and tried tempting him.... :think:

Well the answer from the Christian perpective would be (I assume) that it jsut goes to show the arrogance of Satan that he thinks he can get G-d Himself to worship him. Does that not make sense? Does satan not tempt you to forget God and live a lustful, prideful, and sinful life? The only difference between God/Jesus and us is you know that all knowing/all powerful thing. :lol: (shortened it to only two trait wasn't truly trying to describe God to the fullest and that's probably because I can't :)) A person of strong faith(which I take you to be) will never let go of God, he may falter along the way, but God will always be their ensuring your safe passage because he has already paid the price.