Political Crossfire Forums

[Swampfox.f]

Ozzone wrote:
Nope, sorry. The intelligence community passed false information to both the President and Congress. In addition, the President was also advised by foreign leaders of Saddam's intent to acquire WMD. The President did not willfully pass false information to Congress.

They are good at hiding the trail. Open it up, and let us see the PNAC trail and why we really went to war. Perhaps Bush does have plausible deniability, but I know current and past members of his staff don't share that same luxury.


Quote:
Nope, sorry. The 6th Amendment applies to criminals not unlawful enemy combatants. Feel free to read up on it.

In addition, the Supreme Court ruled the Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism military order was constitutional and has since been replaced by

From your own source:

Quote: Judicial branch ruled the commissions unconstitutional
US District Court Justice James Robertson ruled, in Hamdan v. Rumsfeld, that the military commissions were unconstitutional. A three judge appeals panel overturned Robertson's ruling. Coincidentally, President Bush appointed one of the judges on that panel to the vacant post of Chief Justice of the Supreme Court on the next business day. Justice John Roberts had to recuse himself when the appeal appeared before the Supreme Court. On June 29, 2006 the Supreme Court upheld Robertson's initial ruling 5-3. That ruling was later superced by the Military Commissions Act of 2006.


So the supreme court upheld that the the military commissions were unconstitutional. It seems just another dirty trail left by bush. Cronyism in exchange for unethical behavior.

The military Commission Act of 2006 is a dog and pony show by the admin to cover their asses. We shall see what the court system and suits does to it. Just another long list of unconstitutional laws past by the venal GOP congress under the control of PNAC.

Quote:

In order to impeach the President for these specifications, first the Supreme Court must rule them unconstitutional.

They did before and they probably will do so again now that Bush doesn't have supreme power.


Quote:
Iraq was in violation of the cease-fire and in violation of the no-fly zone. Clinton refused to enforce it. President Bush did not need Congressional approval.

Are you talking about the UN resolutions? That doesn't supersede our laws at home.


Quote:
Unproven allegations. A conspiracy has to be investigated and proven as fact before impeachment proceedings can commence.

I agree that we need an investigation.


Quote:

President Bush said at the State of the Union: "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Sought, not procured. Learn the difference.

As always their semantics keeps them one step away from jail. They are pragmatic I will give them that.

Quote:
10. Contempt of Congress.
George Bush and Dick Cheney showed a contempt of Congress by stating their intentions to violate laws passed by Congress or cause others to do so over 750 times.

Nope, sorry. Witch-hunting.

No, their copious use of signing statements has shown a contempt for American law and our system of government, and a serious investigation and trial needs to happen to punish the criminals and prevent this from ever happening again.


Quote:
11. Illegal wiretaps.
George Bush and Dick Cheney repeatedly bypassed the court system by ordering wiretaps without authorization from judges and without obtaining a warrant.

Of all the stuff you've listed, this may be the only item that will come close to impeachment criteria. Unless Congress can prove that President Bush authorized wiretapping of American citizens that had nothing to do with National Security detection of terrorism plots then it will go nowhere.


They need to open it up, and if Bush continues to use the strong arm tactic of not giving appropriate clearance so that congressional investigations can verify the scope of the program then he needs to be impeached and imprisoned for obstruction of justice.


Quote:
What I think is that the hack site voice of the anti-war, anti-Bush left is garbage.

Accusations are one thing, proven violations are another. Good luck on the impeachment proceedings though. Let us now how that works out.

I would rather he serve out his tenure completely controlled by the democrats and then proceed with criminal prosecutions against him and the rest of the neo-cons so they can answer for their violations of the constitution, crimes against humanity, and confiscation of America's wealth through cronyism and theft.

[AceKingQueenJack]

Ozzone wrote: 1. Leaking classified information by disclosing the identity of Valerie Plame to reporters.
Nope, sorry. Scooter Libby is still under investigation. No grounds to impeach the President or Vice-President.


2. Lying to congress -- passing false information about Iraq's WMD capacities.
Nope, sorry. The intelligence community passed false information to both the President and Congress. In addition, the President was also advised by foreign leaders of Saddam's intent to acquire WMD. The President did not willfully pass false information to Congress.


3. Extraordinary Renditions.
4. Detentions without Trial.
5. Torture.
Nope, sorry. The 6th Amendment applies to criminals not unlawful enemy combatants. Feel free to read up on it.

In addition, the Supreme Court ruled the Detention, Treatment, and Trial of Certain Non-Citizens in the War Against Terrorism military order was constitutional and has since been replaced by Military Commissions Act of 2006.

In order to impeach the President for these specifications, first the Supreme Court must rule them unconstitutional.


7. Bombing Iraq without Congressional Approval.
Iraq was in violation of the cease-fire and in violation of the no-fly zone. Clinton refused to enforce it. President Bush did not need Congressional approval.


8. Conspiracy to pass false information.
Unproven allegations. A conspiracy has to be investigated and proven as fact before impeachment proceedings can commence.


9. Lying about Niger connection.
Nope, sorry. No proof of a lie. Current opinion is that there was a lot of misinformation. The UK continues to back up the story that Saddam was attempting to acquire uranium.

Quote: George Bush and Dick Cheney lied to Congress at the State of the Union and elsewhere by falsely stating that Iraq had procured Uranium from Niger.

President Bush said at the State of the Union: "The British Government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Sought, not procured. Learn the difference.


10. Contempt of Congress.
George Bush and Dick Cheney showed a contempt of Congress by stating their intentions to violate laws passed by Congress or cause others to do so over 750 times.

Nope, sorry. Witch-hunting.


11. Illegal wiretaps.
George Bush and Dick Cheney repeatedly bypassed the court system by ordering wiretaps without authorization from judges and without obtaining a warrant.

Of all the stuff you've listed, this may be the only item that will come close to impeachment criteria. Unless Congress can prove that President Bush authorized wiretapping of American citizens that had nothing to do with National Security detection of terrorism plots then it will go nowhere.


12. Concealment of the existance or nature of Domestic Intelligence Programs.
George Bush and Dick Cheney concealed the nature and extent of the JPEN program, used for the purpose of domestic intelligence.

Nope, sorry. Programs were concealed because they were classified and on a "need-to-know" basis. Those in Congress, with a need-to-know, were informed.


13. Destruction of Evidence.
George Bush and Dick Cheney destroyed evidence in conjunction with Plamegate.

Nope, sorry. Baseless accusation by this hack site.


14. The use of White Phosphorus in Iraq.
George Bush and Dick Cheney authorized the use of White Phosphorus in Iraq in November 2004 during the Fallujah offensive.

Nope, sorry. First of all you have to prove that the President and/or Vice-President authorized it's use.

Second, there is considerable argument whether white phosphorus was used illegally. Congress would have to prove that white phosphorus was used specifically as a chemical weapon against personnel.

Quote: What do you think?

What I think is that the hack site voice of the anti-war, anti-Bush left is garbage.

Accusations are one thing, proven violations are another. Good luck on the impeachment proceedings though. Let us now how that works out.
owned

[Chingu]

Oppose: Because this is the trumped up stuff of destructive partisan politicians and radical anti-americans who are too weak to do what is required of a nation when under threat and because it's almost entirely manufactured BS.

Number 2 would be OK if there were reason to believe that there was any such passage of false information with intent - but there is no evidence to suggest that.

number 3 is OK if you want to be a weak American that want's to concern ones-self with the rights of the very most evil folks on Earth over the peple of America.

Sometimes, it would be better to just keep quiet and let some things get done that need to be done. But the hand-wringing liberals don't get that.

[Swampfox.f]

AceKingQueenJack wrote:
owned



Giving the severity of the subject one would hope that you could contribute more than the singular word "owned" as a vehicle describing your opinion on a subject that truly is complicated to say the least.

[Tetracide]

I support the Democrat's effort to impeach the President. I'd even provide the soap box for you guys to stand on, but I don't have one big enough. Say it loud, and say it proud!

[Mr. Sunshine]

It is only a radical liberal pipe dream without merit. Pretty simple. :lol:

[Sands]

Impeachment would be my second choice.

My first choice would be prosecution for war crimes followed by a swift execution.

[Akajjred]

I oppose their impeachment because they didn't do anything wrong. It'd be Andrew Johnson all over again. Just because I don't agree with the guy doesn't mean we should impeach him. The country voted for him, and although he has made some very bad policies (imo) that doesn't grant us the right to impeachment.

[mojo]

Akajjred wrote: I oppose their impeachment because they didn't do anything wrong. It'd be Andrew Johnson all over again. Just because I don't agree with the guy doesn't mean we should impeach him. The country voted for him, and although he has made some very bad policies (imo) that doesn't grant us the right to impeachment.

pretty much

I would only want an impeachment if Bush started chanting "4 more years".

[Mafioso]

All of these are frivolous charges. I could make up 50 things why we should impeach all of the presidents. Starting with FDR and his "illegal sending of Japs to camps." Or Woodrow Wilson's censoring of the media during WWI. Or even better Abe Lincoln's suspension of Habitues Corpus during the civil war. Or JFK's "illegal" bay of pigs operation, etc.

Wake up. It's weak minded people like this (appeasers) that will lose us the war on terror.

[blockhead]

Lumina wrote: I oppose it. Diversionary, counterproductive waste of time that is doomed to failure.

We should stop prosecuting criminals. It's couterproductive.

[Lumina]

blockhead wrote: Lumina wrote: I oppose it. Diversionary, counterproductive waste of time that is doomed to failure.

We should stop prosecuting criminals. It's couterproductive.

LOL, are you trying to compare the impeachment of a sitting President with the indictment of a criminal as if the former is a commonplace?

[Swampfox.f]

Mafioso wrote: All of these are frivolous charges. I could make up 50 things why we should impeach all of the presidents. Starting with FDR and his "illegal sending of Japs to camps." Or Woodrow Wilson's censoring of the media during WWI. Or even better Abe Lincoln's suspension of Habitues Corpus during the civil war. Or JFK's "illegal" bay of pigs operation, etc.

Wake up. It's weak minded people like this (appeasers) that will lose us the war on terror.


If only you could see the irony in your statement. :lol:

[blockhead]

Lumina wrote: blockhead wrote: Lumina wrote: I oppose it. Diversionary, counterproductive waste of time that is doomed to failure.

We should stop prosecuting criminals. It's couterproductive.

LOL, are you trying to compare the impeachment of a sitting President with the indictment of a criminal as if the former is a commonplace?

Actually, I put more value on prosecuting criminals in high places than putting a drug dealer in prison.

[Mafioso]

Swampfox.f wrote: Mafioso wrote: All of these are frivolous charges. I could make up 50 things why we should impeach all of the presidents. Starting with FDR and his "illegal sending of Japs to camps." Or Woodrow Wilson's censoring of the media during WWI. Or even better Abe Lincoln's suspension of Habitues Corpus during the civil war. Or JFK's "illegal" bay of pigs operation, etc.

Wake up. It's weak minded people like this (appeasers) that will lose us the war on terror.


If only you could see the irony in your statement. :lol:

Obviously there is none considering you couldn't think of any....

[Bull]

Dookiestix wrote: Quote: Articles of Impeachment against Bush and Cheney
by Eternal Hope

Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 04:10:20 PM PST

If we are to impeach, we must impeach both Bush and Cheney. It will not do any good for us to impeach Bush and have Cheney take the Oval Office and pick someone just as radical as he is. It will also not do any good for us to impeach just Cheney and allow Bush to groom John "I'm not knowledgeable" McCain for the 2008 election. Therefore, we must simultaneously impeach both of them so that the 3rd person in succession, Nancy Pelosi, would become the next President of the United States.

What remains to be done is for us to work out articles of impeachment against the President. Others may surface after the Democrats begin their job of investigating and getting to the bottom of the matter. If the Bush administration obstructs or lies to the Congressional Committee chairs, those could in and of themselves be grounds for impeachment and removal of Bush and Cheney.

In the meantime, here are the following 14 possible articles of impeachment against the President and Vice President.

Eternal Hope's diary

1. Leaking classified information by disclosing the identity of Valerie Plame to reporters.

The President and Vice President unlawfully leaked classified information, the identity of a Non-official Cover, Valerie (Wilson) Plame, to a person or persons not authorized to receive such information, namely, Robert Novak, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune, and Matt Cooper, a reporter for Time Magazine.

Law violated:

National Security Act of 1947.

Quote: Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(b) Whoever, as a result of having authorized access to classified information, learns the identity of a covert agent and intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

© Whoever, in the course of a pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States, discloses any information that identifies an individual as a covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such individual and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such individual’s classified intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(d) A term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be consecutive to any other sentence of imprisonment.

2. Lying to congress -- passing false information about Iraq's WMD capacities.

George Bush and Dick Cheney passed false information to Congress about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities, to wit, their possession of chemical weapons, biological weapons, and delivery systems. Furthermore, George Bush and Dick Cheney passed false information to Congress by falsely stating that Iraq was an imminent threat to the United States and that military action was therefore necessary.

Law violated:

18 USC 1001.

Quote: Whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States knowingly and willfully falsifies, conceals or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact, or makes any false, fictitious or fraudulent statements or representations, or makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or entry, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
3. Extraordinary Renditions.

George Bush and Dick Cheney authorized the arrest and transporting of prisoners to secret jails in Morocco, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Eastern Europe for detention and torture without trial.

Law violated:

6th Amendment of the Constitution.

Quote: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
4. Detentions without Trial.

George Bush and Dick Cheney detained thousands of people at Guantanamo Bay without the possibility of trial and without access to effective counsel.

Law violated:

6th Amendment (see above).

5. Torture.

George Bush and Dick Cheney either ordered or caused other foreign countries to perform torture on suspects illegally detained under sections 3 and 4 of these articles.

Law violated:

8th Amendment.

Quote: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
6. Misappropriation of Funds.

George Bush and Dick Cheney diverted funds from Afghanistan to Iraq as documented in Bob Woodward's "Plan of attack" and failed to notify Congress of such appropriations.

Law violated:

Iraq Liberation Act of 1998.

Quote: The President shall notify the congressional committees specified in section 634A of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 at least 15 days in advance of each obligation of assistance under this section in accordance with the procedures applicable to reprogramming notifications under section 634A.
7. Bombing Iraq without Congressional Approval.

George Bush and Dick Cheney authorized over 21,000 bombing missions on Iraq without Congressional approval before passage of the Iraq War Resolution in October 11th, 2002.

Law violated:

Article I, US Constitution.

Quote: To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
8. Conspiracy to pass false information.

George Bush and Dick Cheney conspired to pass false information about the nature of the intelligence on Iraq to the US Congress in conjunction with British Prime Minister Tony Blair for the purposes of triggering a war with Iraq as documented in the Downing Street Minutes.

Law violated:

18 USC 1001 (see above).

9. Lying about Niger connection.

George Bush and Dick Cheney lied to Congress at the State of the Union and elsewhere by falsely stating that Iraq had procured Uranium from Niger.

Law violated:

18 USC 1001 (see above).

10. Contempt of Congress.

George Bush and Dick Cheney showed a contempt of Congress by stating their intentions to violate laws passed by Congress or cause others to do so over 750 times.

11. Illegal wiretaps.

George Bush and Dick Cheney repeatedly bypassed the court system by ordering wiretaps without authorization from judges and without obtaining a warrant.

Law violated:

4th Amendment

Quote: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
12. Concealment of the existance or nature of Domestic Intelligence Programs.

George Bush and Dick Cheney concealed the nature and extent of the JPEN program, used for the purpose of domestic intelligence.

Law violated:

18 USC 1505

Quote: Whoever, with intent to avoid, evade, prevent, or obstruct compliance, in whole or in part, with any civil investigative demand duly and properly made under the Antitrust Civil Process Act, willfully withholds, misrepresents, removes from any place, conceals, covers up, destroys, mutilates, alters, or by other means falsifies any documentary material, answers to written interrogatories, or oral testimony, which is the subject of such demand; or attempts to do so or solicits another to do so; or
Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede the due and proper administration of the law under which any pending proceeding is being had before any department or agency of the United States, or the due and proper exercise of the power of inquiry under which any inquiry or investigation is being had by either House, or any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress—
Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both.
13. Destruction of Evidence.

George Bush and Dick Cheney destroyed evidence in conjunction with Plamegate.

Law violated:

18 USC 1505 (see above).

14. The use of White Phosphorus in Iraq.

George Bush and Dick Cheney authorized the use of White Phosphorus in Iraq in November 2004 during the Fallujah offensive.

Law violated:

US Army Field Manual, Chapter 5, section 3.

Quote: (4) Burster Type White phosphorus (WP M110A2) rounds burn with intense heat and emit dense white smoke. They may be used as the initial rounds in the smokescreen to rapidly create smoke or against material targets, such as Class V sites or logistic sites. It is against the law of land warfare to employ WP against personnel targets.
Certainly a far cry from lying in a Grand Jury about sex, is it not?

What do you think? The number of violations stacked up against the Bush administration is rather stunning. Does anyone think that at some point, if things truly get bad enough for the Bush administration (Cheney is now asking help from the Saudis because of their extroardinary screw-ups), and as Iraq continues to spiral into absolute chaos and death, that the American people will have finally had enough with the failed policies of this group of cronies? When is enough going to be enough?

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/11/24/17048/677

I'd support it, though I don't know how productive it would be. It's possible the Dems could shot themselves in the foot by doing something like this too. Because all this time they've talked about how "impeachment is off the table" and whatnot. I also don't know how much the American people are going to support Nancy Pelosi as President.

[veritas lux mea]

Yea sure; though to be fair, I'm hard pressed to think of a president who hasn't in some way violated his oath of office and thus has warranted impeachment and expulsion from office.

But that's just me.

[gavnook]

Mafioso wrote: All of these are frivolous charges. I could make up 50 things why we should impeach all of the presidents. Starting with FDR and his "illegal sending of Japs to camps." Or Woodrow Wilson's censoring of the media during WWI. Or even better Abe Lincoln's suspension of Habitues Corpus during the civil war. Or JFK's "illegal" bay of pigs operation, etc.

Yes, the precedent has been sent. The President of the US can do whatever the hell he wants regardless of the law.

Perhaps it's time to set a better precedent.

[Mr. Sunshine]

gavnook wrote: Mafioso wrote: All of these are frivolous charges. I could make up 50 things why we should impeach all of the presidents. Starting with FDR and his "illegal sending of Japs to camps." Or Woodrow Wilson's censoring of the media during WWI. Or even better Abe Lincoln's suspension of Habitues Corpus during the civil war. Or JFK's "illegal" bay of pigs operation, etc.

Yes, the precedent has been sent. The President of the US can do whatever the hell he wants regardless of the law.

Perhaps it's time to set a better precedent.

Except perjury. :rofl:

[Gaea]

I voted "NO" on impeachment.

First of all, Pelosi said there would be no impeachment while she was speaker of the house. I'd like to think she would keep her word. However, that doesn't mean other Democrats couldn't begin impeachment proceedings without her. But I don't think it will happen.

Second, if the Dems impeach Bush and Cheney then they will become responislbe for the quagmire in Iraq and not Bush. I think Bush should stay in office just so he can reap all the blame that is his due for the sake of posterity.

Third, there can't be an impeachment until Phase Two of the intelligence investigation is completed. Once that is complete then there is the possiblity of a war crime tribunal. With a war crime tribunal who cares about an impeachment? An impeachment doesn't remove a president from office anyway. But charging a president with a crime does.

Fourth, the Dems only have two years to get this country back on track and an impeachment would only distract and detract from the real task at hand.