Political Crossfire Forums

[Alizard]

beachbum bob wrote: Alizard wrote: beachbum bob wrote: coppersink63 wrote: Another thing. Someone please tell me what is a waste of time investigating one of the most corrupt organizations known to man? Governments in general (not just the U.S. and NOT just republicans) are known for their corruption and thievery.

Alot of you on the right are completly blinded by your party, 6 years ago you were screaming investigation for clinton but now because its a republican you think its a waste of time? Try and tell me thats not a slap in the face coincidence.

Democrat or republican or independant alike, these parties need to be kept in check. If you are against these checks and balances from your leaders you should do the rest of the country a favor and move out before you elect a president who will try to take away our rights!

..oh... too late ...

in a few more weeks, the investigations will proceed...perhaps the republicans can learn what REAL oversight means.....not just investigations of BJ or superbowl tickets
but into the deep fraud and corruption rampant thru out our govt and our MIC

I honestly hope the dems are smart enough to avoid that pitfall. The GOP misuse of the impeachment prceedings has sullied it irrepairably. In the eyes of the sheeple, a dem impeachment will make them look petty, desperate and veangeful.... in other words, just like republicans. And in the next election, they will pay the price for it.

The dems should not fall for that. They should be putting up actual positive legislation which the GOP will vote down. In that way, the people will see who is trying to fix the mess the GOP has made.

democratic investigations into the fraud and corruption will be enough....going into impeachment is a disservice best left to republicans to do

I know what you mean, but I still think it's a mistake for the dems to open investigations the minute they get in town. That will play right into the GOP hands as they will claim it's retaliation and petty partisan politics.

The dems need to take that card away really quick by putting up genuinely good legislation and making an effort to work to get it through. The GOP will of course refuse to pass it out of spite for their last beating, which plays right into the dem's hands.

I think it's time the dems played smart.

[beachbum bob]

Alizard wrote: beachbum bob wrote: Alizard wrote: beachbum bob wrote: coppersink63 wrote: Another thing. Someone please tell me what is a waste of time investigating one of the most corrupt organizations known to man? Governments in general (not just the U.S. and NOT just republicans) are known for their corruption and thievery.

Alot of you on the right are completly blinded by your party, 6 years ago you were screaming investigation for clinton but now because its a republican you think its a waste of time? Try and tell me thats not a slap in the face coincidence.

Democrat or republican or independant alike, these parties need to be kept in check. If you are against these checks and balances from your leaders you should do the rest of the country a favor and move out before you elect a president who will try to take away our rights!

..oh... too late ...

in a few more weeks, the investigations will proceed...perhaps the republicans can learn what REAL oversight means.....not just investigations of BJ or superbowl tickets
but into the deep fraud and corruption rampant thru out our govt and our MIC

I honestly hope the dems are smart enough to avoid that pitfall. The GOP misuse of the impeachment prceedings has sullied it irrepairably. In the eyes of the sheeple, a dem impeachment will make them look petty, desperate and veangeful.... in other words, just like republicans. And in the next election, they will pay the price for it.

The dems should not fall for that. They should be putting up actual positive legislation which the GOP will vote down. In that way, the people will see who is trying to fix the mess the GOP has made.

democratic investigations into the fraud and corruption will be enough....going into impeachment is a disservice best left to republicans to do

I know what you mean, but I still think it's a mistake for the dems to open investigations the minute they get in town. That will play right into the GOP hands as they will claim it's retaliation and petty partisan politics.

The dems need to take that card away really quick by putting up genuinely good legislation and making an effort to work to get it through. The GOP will of course refuse to pass it out of spite for their last beating, which plays right into the dem's hands.

I think it's time the dems played smart.

I think both can and will be done...Pelosi has outlined series of legislation to be debated and passed in the first week of congress....

the investigations into the fraud and corruption must happen....that is what the american people voted on

[coppersink63]

Alizard wrote: coppersink63 wrote: Another thing. Someone please tell me what is a waste of time investigating one of the most corrupt organizations known to man? Governments in general (not just the U.S. and NOT just republicans) are known for their corruption and thievery.

Alot of you on the right are completly blinded by your party, 6 years ago you were screaming investigation for clinton but now because its a republican you think its a waste of time? Try and tell me thats not a slap in the face coincidence.

Democrat or republican or independant alike, these parties need to be kept in check. If you are against these checks and balances from your leaders you should do the rest of the country a favor and move out before you elect a president who will try to take away our rights!

..oh... too late ...

At the risk of learning from the slimeballs...... the best way to get the crooks is to win the white house. Then install an honest man in charge of the justice department and tell him:

SIC 'EM!

That way it looks like the government doing what it is supposed to do, not people on a witch hunt.

I disagree. I think american people are outraged enough by bush and cheney and would smile upon the investigation. Just because republicans did it to clinton over a BJ dosent meen we cant do it because Bush has lied to his country and gotten thousands killed for his mistakes.

I dont think democrats are going to persue this because they said they wouldnt, however I think it would be the right thing to do and I wouldnt even mind if it cost us the election in 08. Again thats just my opinion.

I also stated previously that IMO the best working system americans have is a democratic house/senate and a republican president or vice versa. Leaning to far to one side or another is bad.

Look how well we did under clinton even after he had to deal with a republican house and senate. These are the same checks and balances at work that im talking about here. Get the parties to keep eachother in check, thats the best way!

[Mr. Sunshine]

I voted Democrat this time around, so that by 2008 the liberal leftist Democratic Leadership Council will be dethroned by the Centrists supported by the Blue Dogs and I can have the party of my forefathers back. Please move forward on Impeachment as it will make the DNC leadership change occur faster. Is it deserving, we'll see? The implosion and failures so far of the DLC have been delicious. Can't wait to see what will happen when they are actually driving the Congressional Limo. :lol:

[Dookiestix]

There is no doubt in most Congressional minds that there will be investigations when the Dems take over. This is why the GOP are dumping close to a half a trillion dollars in unresolved appropriations bills so that the Dems will be too distracted by their mess to pursue their own agenda; an agenda which also includes doing things for the American people like dealing with the minimum wage and healthcare.

I doubt that impeachment will ever happen in the next several years. It would be an enormous distraction from what we must do in extricating ourselves out of Iraq and stabilizing that region. But putting pressure on this administration through investigations would perhaps motivate them to deal with the business of the country. I just hope that the Dems will take the high road in this regard, and at the same time call to American's attention the enormous corruption and incompetence that has existed within Congress as well as the Bush administration.

[Dookiestix]

Mr. Sunshine wrote: I voted Democrat this time around, so that by 2008 the liberal leftist Democratic Leadership Council will be dethroned by the Centrists supported by the Blue Dogs and I can have the party of my forefathers back. Please move forward on Impeachment as it will make the DNC leadership change occur faster. Is it deserving, we'll see? The implosion and failures so far of the DLC have been delicious. Can't wait to see what will happen when they are actually driving the Congressional Limo. :lol:
What implosion?

[Mr. Sunshine]

Dookiestix wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: I voted Democrat this time around, so that by 2008 the liberal leftist Democratic Leadership Council will be dethroned by the Centrists supported by the Blue Dogs and I can have the party of my forefathers back. Please move forward on Impeachment as it will make the DNC leadership change occur faster. Is it deserving, we'll see? The implosion and failures so far of the DLC have been delicious. Can't wait to see what will happen when they are actually driving the Congressional Limo. :lol:
What implosion?

Pelosi vs. Hoyer. Pelosi vs. Harmon. Pelosi vs. Rangel and HIS draft. Very tasty, and it is still just November. :rofl:

[beachbum bob]

Dookiestix wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: I voted Democrat this time around, so that by 2008 the liberal leftist Democratic Leadership Council will be dethroned by the Centrists supported by the Blue Dogs and I can have the party of my forefathers back. Please move forward on Impeachment as it will make the DNC leadership change occur faster. Is it deserving, we'll see? The implosion and failures so far of the DLC have been delicious. Can't wait to see what will happen when they are actually driving the Congressional Limo. :lol:
What implosion?

......???
only in some strange reality...the democrats overwhelming victory in state and national elections that it is construed as an "implosion"....

[Mr. Sunshine]

beachbum bob wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: I voted Democrat this time around, so that by 2008 the liberal leftist Democratic Leadership Council will be dethroned by the Centrists supported by the Blue Dogs and I can have the party of my forefathers back. Please move forward on Impeachment as it will make the DNC leadership change occur faster. Is it deserving, we'll see? The implosion and failures so far of the DLC have been delicious. Can't wait to see what will happen when they are actually driving the Congressional Limo. :lol:
What implosion?

......???
only in some strange reality...the democrats overwhelming victory in state and national elections that it is construed as an "implosion"....

Overwhelming victory is because the Blue dogs have left the Republican Party to reclaim our party. We backed Hoyer against Murtha and won, overwhelmingly. We are storming the gates of the Democratic Leadership Council and are the only people that can get the other Republican half of Congress to work in unison. By '08, the liberal left wing of the DLC might as well move to Canada. Blue Dogs are loyal to principle first and we are taking our party back. The Democratic Party is ready to purge itself of the wackjobs that have wrecked it. :lol:

[Dookiestix]

Mr. Sunshine wrote: beachbum bob wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: I voted Democrat this time around, so that by 2008 the liberal leftist Democratic Leadership Council will be dethroned by the Centrists supported by the Blue Dogs and I can have the party of my forefathers back. Please move forward on Impeachment as it will make the DNC leadership change occur faster. Is it deserving, we'll see? The implosion and failures so far of the DLC have been delicious. Can't wait to see what will happen when they are actually driving the Congressional Limo. :lol:
What implosion?

......???
only in some strange reality...the democrats overwhelming victory in state and national elections that it is construed as an "implosion"....

Overwhelming victory is because the Blue dogs have left the Republican Party to reclaim our party. We backed Hoyer against Murtha and won, overwhelmingly. We are storming the gates of the Democratic Leadership Council and are the only people that can get the other Republican half of Congress to work in unison. By '08, the liberal left wing of the DLC might as well move to Canada. Blue Dogs are loyal to principle first and we are taking our party back. The Democratic Party is ready to purge itself of the wackjobs that have wrecked it. :lol:
Um, o.k. That still doesn't explain your "implosion" accusation. The only implosion I've witnessed involved the Republican party in regards to the last elections.

And that was quite an implosion, if you ask me.

[Dookiestix]

Mr. Sunshine wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: I voted Democrat this time around, so that by 2008 the liberal leftist Democratic Leadership Council will be dethroned by the Centrists supported by the Blue Dogs and I can have the party of my forefathers back. Please move forward on Impeachment as it will make the DNC leadership change occur faster. Is it deserving, we'll see? The implosion and failures so far of the DLC have been delicious. Can't wait to see what will happen when they are actually driving the Congressional Limo. :lol:
What implosion?

Pelosi vs. Hoyer. Pelosi vs. Harmon. Pelosi vs. Rangel and HIS draft. Very tasty, and it is still just November. :rofl:
Where's the implosion?

Oh, yeah. It's in your head. :rotf:

[jamesp]

overwheleming victory ? it took two days to learn if they won the Senate..

I'm glad it is overwhelming though, thats a good way to look at it, and it is obvious that the DC elected DEMS are looking at it that way as well.

this is a good thing...

Senate by 1..thats a tuff call to be overwhelming especially with several Conservative DEMS in the pack and Ct. Joe as well.

But, I'll acccept the term overwhelming..that means we should have some overwhelming results..no ?

[The American]

Dookiestix wrote: Quote: Articles of Impeachment against Bush and Cheney
by Eternal Hope

Fri Nov 24, 2006 at 04:10:20 PM PST

If we are to impeach, we must impeach both Bush and Cheney. It will not do any good for us to impeach Bush and have Cheney take the Oval Office and pick someone just as radical as he is. It will also not do any good for us to impeach just Cheney and allow Bush to groom John "I'm not knowledgeable" McCain for the 2008 election. Therefore, we must simultaneously impeach both of them so that the 3rd person in succession, Nancy Pelosi, would become the next President of the United States.

What remains to be done is for us to work out articles of impeachment against the President. Others may surface after the Democrats begin their job of investigating and getting to the bottom of the matter. If the Bush administration obstructs or lies to the Congressional Committee chairs, those could in and of themselves be grounds for impeachment and removal of Bush and Cheney.

In the meantime, here are the following 14 possible articles of impeachment against the President and Vice President.

Eternal Hope's diary

1. Leaking classified information by disclosing the identity of Valerie Plame to reporters.

The President and Vice President unlawfully leaked classified information, the identity of a Non-official Cover, Valerie (Wilson) Plame, to a person or persons not authorized to receive such information, namely, Robert Novak, a reporter for the Chicago Tribune, and Matt Cooper, a reporter for Time Magazine.

Law violated:

National Security Act of 1947.

Quote: Whoever, having or having had authorized access to classified information that identifies a covert agent, intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both.
(b) Whoever, as a result of having authorized access to classified information, learns the identity of a covert agent and intentionally discloses any information identifying such covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such covert agent and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such covert agent’s intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.

© Whoever, in the course of a pattern of activities intended to identify and expose covert agents and with reason to believe that such activities would impair or impede the foreign intelligence activities of the United States, discloses any information that identifies an individual as a covert agent to any individual not authorized to receive classified information, knowing that the information disclosed so identifies such individual and that the United States is taking affirmative measures to conceal such individual’s classified intelligence relationship to the United States, shall be fined under title 18, United States Code, or imprisoned not more than three years, or both.

(d) A term of imprisonment imposed under this section shall be consecutive to any other sentence of imprisonment.

2. Lying to congress -- passing false information about Iraq's WMD capacities.

George Bush and Dick Cheney passed false information to Congress about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction capabilities, to wit, their possession of chemical weapons, biological weapons, and delivery systems. Furthermore, George Bush and Dick Cheney passed false information to Congress by falsely stating that Iraq was an imminent threat to the United States and that military action was therefore necessary.

Law violated:

18 USC 1001.

Quote: Whoever, in any matter within the jurisdiction of any department or agency of the United States knowingly and willfully falsifies, conceals or covers up by any trick, scheme, or device a material fact, or makes any false, fictitious or fraudulent statements or representations, or makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the same to contain any false, fictitious or fraudulent statement or entry, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than five years, or both.
3. Extraordinary Renditions.

George Bush and Dick Cheney authorized the arrest and transporting of prisoners to secret jails in Morocco, Syria, Jordan, Egypt, and Eastern Europe for detention and torture without trial.

Law violated:

6th Amendment of the Constitution.

Quote: In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the State and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the Assistance of Counsel for his defence.
4. Detentions without Trial.

George Bush and Dick Cheney detained thousands of people at Guantanamo Bay without the possibility of trial and without access to effective counsel.

Law violated:

6th Amendment (see above).

5. Torture.

George Bush and Dick Cheney either ordered or caused other foreign countries to perform torture on suspects illegally detained under sections 3 and 4 of these articles.

Law violated:

8th Amendment.

Quote: Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.
6. Misappropriation of Funds.

George Bush and Dick Cheney diverted funds from Afghanistan to Iraq as documented in Bob Woodward's "Plan of attack" and failed to notify Congress of such appropriations.

Law violated:

Iraq Liberation Act of 1998.

Quote: The President shall notify the congressional committees specified in section 634A of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 at least 15 days in advance of each obligation of assistance under this section in accordance with the procedures applicable to reprogramming notifications under section 634A.
7. Bombing Iraq without Congressional Approval.

George Bush and Dick Cheney authorized over 21,000 bombing missions on Iraq without Congressional approval before passage of the Iraq War Resolution in October 11th, 2002.

Law violated:

Article I, US Constitution.

Quote: To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;
8. Conspiracy to pass false information.

George Bush and Dick Cheney conspired to pass false information about the nature of the intelligence on Iraq to the US Congress in conjunction with British Prime Minister Tony Blair for the purposes of triggering a war with Iraq as documented in the Downing Street Minutes.

Law violated:

18 USC 1001 (see above).

9. Lying about Niger connection.

George Bush and Dick Cheney lied to Congress at the State of the Union and elsewhere by falsely stating that Iraq had procured Uranium from Niger.

Law violated:

18 USC 1001 (see above).

10. Contempt of Congress.

George Bush and Dick Cheney showed a contempt of Congress by stating their intentions to violate laws passed by Congress or cause others to do so over 750 times.

11. Illegal wiretaps.

George Bush and Dick Cheney repeatedly bypassed the court system by ordering wiretaps without authorization from judges and without obtaining a warrant.

Law violated:

4th Amendment

Quote: The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
12. Concealment of the existance or nature of Domestic Intelligence Programs.

George Bush and Dick Cheney concealed the nature and extent of the JPEN program, used for the purpose of domestic intelligence.

Law violated:

18 USC 1505

Quote: Whoever, with intent to avoid, evade, prevent, or obstruct compliance, in whole or in part, with any civil investigative demand duly and properly made under the Antitrust Civil Process Act, willfully withholds, misrepresents, removes from any place, conceals, covers up, destroys, mutilates, alters, or by other means falsifies any documentary material, answers to written interrogatories, or oral testimony, which is the subject of such demand; or attempts to do so or solicits another to do so; or
Whoever corruptly, or by threats or force, or by any threatening letter or communication influences, obstructs, or impedes or endeavors to influence, obstruct, or impede the due and proper administration of the law under which any pending proceeding is being had before any department or agency of the United States, or the due and proper exercise of the power of inquiry under which any inquiry or investigation is being had by either House, or any committee of either House or any joint committee of the Congress—
Shall be fined under this title, imprisoned not more than 5 years or, if the offense involves international or domestic terrorism (as defined in section 2331), imprisoned not more than 8 years, or both.
13. Destruction of Evidence.

George Bush and Dick Cheney destroyed evidence in conjunction with Plamegate.

Law violated:

18 USC 1505 (see above).

14. The use of White Phosphorus in Iraq.

George Bush and Dick Cheney authorized the use of White Phosphorus in Iraq in November 2004 during the Fallujah offensive.

Law violated:

US Army Field Manual, Chapter 5, section 3.

Quote: (4) Burster Type White phosphorus (WP M110A2) rounds burn with intense heat and emit dense white smoke. They may be used as the initial rounds in the smokescreen to rapidly create smoke or against material targets, such as Class V sites or logistic sites. It is against the law of land warfare to employ WP against personnel targets.
Certainly a far cry from lying in a Grand Jury about sex, is it not?

What do you think? The number of violations stacked up against the Bush administration is rather stunning. Does anyone think that at some point, if things truly get bad enough for the Bush administration (Cheney is now asking help from the Saudis because of their extroardinary screw-ups), and as Iraq continues to spiral into absolute chaos and death, that the American people will have finally had enough with the failed policies of this group of cronies? When is enough going to be enough?

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/11/24/17048/677

Why?

No credibility.

However, one must keep in mind, the political battlefield is like a pendilum. Pulling it one way, and as it swings back, farther in the opposite direction. We see this taking place now. My advice is go ahead. I look forward to hearing the whiners in congress again in 08.

:wink:

[Mr. Sunshine]

Dookiestix wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: I voted Democrat this time around, so that by 2008 the liberal leftist Democratic Leadership Council will be dethroned by the Centrists supported by the Blue Dogs and I can have the party of my forefathers back. Please move forward on Impeachment as it will make the DNC leadership change occur faster. Is it deserving, we'll see? The implosion and failures so far of the DLC have been delicious. Can't wait to see what will happen when they are actually driving the Congressional Limo. :lol:
What implosion?

Pelosi vs. Hoyer. Pelosi vs. Harmon. Pelosi vs. Rangel and HIS draft. Very tasty, and it is still just November. :rofl:
Where's the implosion?

Oh, yeah. It's in your head. :rotf:

Self delusion and denial are your best friends. Keep sleeping while we walk over you in your sleeping bag. 8:)

[Dookiestix]

Mr. Sunshine wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: I voted Democrat this time around, so that by 2008 the liberal leftist Democratic Leadership Council will be dethroned by the Centrists supported by the Blue Dogs and I can have the party of my forefathers back. Please move forward on Impeachment as it will make the DNC leadership change occur faster. Is it deserving, we'll see? The implosion and failures so far of the DLC have been delicious. Can't wait to see what will happen when they are actually driving the Congressional Limo. :lol:
What implosion?

Pelosi vs. Hoyer. Pelosi vs. Harmon. Pelosi vs. Rangel and HIS draft. Very tasty, and it is still just November. :rofl:
Where's the implosion?

Oh, yeah. It's in your head. :rotf:

Self delusion and denial are your best friends. Keep sleeping while we walk over you in your sleeping bag. 8:)
What fantasy world are you currently in now? Sounds like a slumper party to me... 8:)

You have yet to point out the "implosion."

[AmericanJuggernaut]

coppersink63 wrote: AmericanJuggernaut wrote: sLiPpY wrote: Why stop with Bush and Cheney? i.e. It's now know, as it was suspected all along that Rumsfeld personally authorized what happened at prisons in Iraq.

There's also a book coming out, that presents evidence of high crimes for about eight individuals in the Bush Administration, that's written by an individual with a background in law, and the US Court system.

I'd hoped that US Presidents would have learned from the lessons of Nixon, they're not "above the law." I think it's high time the point is proven again.

How about we impeach citizens who start stupid threads like this one . This is pure crap in it's grandest form. Don't forget to wipe!!

some honest advice for you.

You should sit back and observe for a week or two, because a good amount of people around here can show you how to intelligently debate. Stuff like the above is childish and really doesn't impress anyone.

Nor do you impress me . I don't feed at the liberal teat. George Bush is a good man and this thread is nothing but a witch hunt.

I don't need your honest advice, i been around way to long to be snow jobbed. Try a 21 year old kid.

P.S.: Don't ever tell me how to debate !!