Political Crossfire Forums

[Proton]

Quote: maybe it also means:

1. bomb making equipment
2. artillery shells ( used in ied's )
3. explosives used in making suicide vests
4. mortars
5. portable rokets
6. rpg's
7. ect....

Ok, I suppose explosions will go down then.

That was the point after all no?
Quote: Quote: Proton wrote:
A look at Africa will tell you how much of a rare strategic loss those are.

its about iraq not africa

Africa, was an example, in order to demonstrate the availability of such weapons. I chose that because of it's image as dirt poor, even poorer than Iraq, yet somehow, managing from the looks of it to have more kalashnikov's than potatoes.

Quote:
they want peace as a majority, the minority want to have a civil war and bring back oppressive rule
That, again, is their problem to figure it out. If they are the majority, I suppose then it shouldn't be much of a problem to crash said minority, would it? Atta boy.

And they get freedom from the occupiers as well. I mean, really. What more could they wish. Or maybe they screw it up again. As long as they don't pass their borders. If they do. It's GPS guided munition time.
Quote: Quote: Once the US pulls out and stops messing around, no longer having an invader to blame. With great use of something called "personal responsibility" and "sovereignty" they give hands, make peace, and re-built their country into a space faring utopia. Or maybe not.

uh yeah ok .... Rolling Eyes
Is it so unthinkable?

Gee, where is your faith in the Iraqi people?

[Etienne]

Chingu wrote: rhill230 wrote: Quote: what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?


What would you say if I told you that I just talked to someone who just got back from Iraq not two weeks ago and he said that the country is in total chaos right now?

We can play the "I talked to this guy game" all day.

I would ask him what part of Iraq he served in and I would alos ask him if he saw anything good going on.


but obviously - you haven't talked with anyone who served there reently - because anyoe who had would be able to tell you about some of the progress being made. Isn't difficult to see.

But, I( suppose there are a few who are serving inthe heat of the bad stuff who wouldn't see everything but the violence that they are dealing with.

the point being- you can't dismiss the good stuff.

The point being that three years after Bush declared the end of major combat operations in Iraq, we expect good things to be happening. We do not expect Iraq to be on the brink of civil war. We do not expect 3000+ Iraqis to die each month from ethnic violence.

Quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6141978.stm

The ongoing unrest in Iraq has prompted international calls for Syria and Iran to work with Western powers in seeking an end to sectarian violence there.
The White House has indicated it will consider talking to both countries.

President George W Bush on Monday met members of an expert panel known as the Iraq Study Group, which has been re-evaluating US strategy in Iraq.

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair is also expected to call for Syria and Iran to co-operate in a speech later on Monday.

The UK Foreign Secretary, Margaret Beckett, has already said the two countries should be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

The fact that the US and UK have considered involving Iran and Syria in helping Iraq stabilize should indicate to you that things are really *BEEP* up in Iraq right now.

[Proton]

Quote: You will be amazed at what the real peple in Iraq do for themselves over time. you are impatient and overly worried about a situation which has been brewing for decades - if not centuries. L:et it play out a little and see where it goes. I'll bet you the good guys win and the bad guys get defeated.
Hey, waiting until the normal forces of globalisation (capitalism and science) slowly erode teh cultures, and calm down the area is not considered winning due to the military campaign you know.

I think that the mere sight of a secular, materialistic, driven by hedonistic pleasures yet tower to the skies, steel and glass skyscraper dwarfing a stone Mosque in Dubai, wins young muslim hearts much better, and faster than the US does in Iraq.

Hell. I see the entire of UAE and Saudi Arabia becoming more secular than Turkey faster than Iraq becomes as Secular as present Saudi Arabia.

[The Newb]

[quote="Proton"] Quote: maybe it also means:

1. bomb making equipment
2. artillery shells ( used in ied's )
3. explosives used in making suicide vests
4. mortars
5. portable rokets
6. rpg's
7. ect....


Proton wrote: Ok, I suppose explosions will go down then.

well.... if the media shows it yes, more ied's are found and disarmed, than actually go off media dont tell that story do they? you hear of one or 2 ied's a day how many are found, and disarmed? go figure

Quote: Quote: Proton wrote:
A look at Africa will tell you how much of a rare strategic loss those are.

its about iraq not africa

Proton wrote: Africa, was an example, in order to demonstrate the availability of such weapons. I chose that because of it's image as dirt poor, even poorer than Iraq, yet somehow, managing from the looks of it to have more kalashnikov's than potatoes.

nope different country different means of aquiring weapons, most are hold overs from saddams regime, some are imported from iran or syria by supporters of the terrorists or civil war sects, so no the point is invalid

Quote:
they want peace as a majority, the minority want to have a civil war and bring back oppressive rule
That, again, is their problem to figure it out. If they are the majority, I suppose then it shouldn't be much of a problem to crash said minority, would it? Atta boy.

And they get freedom from the occupiers as well. I mean, really. What more could they wish. Or maybe they screw it up again. As long as they don't pass their borders. If they do. It's GPS guided munition time.
Quote: Quote: Once the US pulls out and stops messing around, no longer having an invader to blame. With great use of something called "personal responsibility" and "sovereignty" they give hands, make peace, and re-built their country into a space faring utopia. Or maybe not.

uh yeah ok .... Rolling Eyes
Proton wrote: Is it so unthinkable?

Gee, where is your faith in the Iraqi people?

i have faith in the iraqi people, yet i also have a grip on reality, if the terrorists can they will blow the country apart rather than allow a democracy, and the iraqi people know this so they will succumb to oppressive rule once again, where is your faith in our government?

[Etienne]

Chingu wrote: Etienne wrote: Chingu wrote: Etienne wrote: Chingu wrote: Alizard wrote: Lumina wrote: I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

I often wonder just how bad their civil war will have to get before we stop hearing rubbish like this.

Clearly, 4000 dead per month isn't enough because that's where we are now in Iraq and you are still trying to project the ludicrous assertion that the "doom and gloom" is just a media ploy to sell papers.

Like I said..... I wonder when it will get bad enough that you will admit the truth, or at least stop printing the same old lie about how the media is to blame for the reports of the horrors in Iraq.

Phew - hard to deal with folks who just don't get it.

There is a mission to accomplish here that, if we fail has consequences. This is war! People DIE in war! No one is suggesting that people dying in war is a good thing! Damnit I loose patience.

the point is, it could be far worse. The point is that ALL WE HEAR ABOUT IS THE DAMNED BAD AND NONE OF THE GOOD! And, there is plenty of good to be reported but the media and the left refuse to do so in an effort to paint IRaq only in it's most negative light and to undermine the mission which is to make a better future not only for IRaq but for the region and thus the world!

4,000 people a month dying is bad. We all know that. It's tragic - it's terrible. 10,000 would be worse - do you agree? We are fighting evil here folks. This isn't a game of nyumbers - it's a real world situation that requires being solved. Unfortunately, to solve it - people have to die because the enemy here isn't going to stop being bad just because we stop killing or capturing them - hey will only get worse.

Comprende? Do you want things to get a lot worse? Is that your goal? Do you really think that were America to withdraw that suddenly all the violence would dry up and teh songbirds would sing and rainbows and candy would fall from th sky? THINK MAN! THINK!

Just tell us which side we are on...

Are we on the side of the Sunnis?

Or are we on the side of the Shiites?

niether and both. We're on the side of those who want a reasonably stable and peaceful way forward which is the vast majority of Iraqi's. I other words, we're on the side of the good guys and against the bad. there are some bad Sunni and some bad Shiite. There are many good of both.

Neither and both? Is this more doublethinking?

The Shia are killing the Sunnis, and the Sunnis are killing the Shia. These are Iraqis killing Iraqis. How are you going to create a peaceful and stable Iraq when both sides appear to be bent on killing each other? How are you going to prevent Islamic extremists, some of whom support Iran, from dominating Iraq's goverment once the killing stops?

One would think that three years after Bush declared the end of major combat operations in Iraq, there would be more "progress" in Iraq than 3000+ Iraqis killed each month from ethnic violence.

You will be amazed at what the real peple in Iraq do for themselves over time. you are impatient and overly worried about a situation which has been brewing for decades - if not centuries. Let it play out a little and see where it goes. I'll bet you the good guys win and the bad guys get defeated.

Who are the good guys? The Sunnis, or the Shia? These are the groups that are doing most of the fighting in Iraq right now.

Should we support the Sunnis we removed from power, or should we support the Shia, and risk expanding Iran's influence in the region?

Quote: BTW - we did win the initial war - so I don't know why you leftists keep harping on Bush declaring an end to major hostilities. that was a leader saying we won. We did. Point made. move on.

What exactly did we win? More US soldiers have died since the end of major combat operations than during the invasion. October 2006 was one of the deadliest months for US soldiers.

Quote: We are now in a secondary war. Bush decided not to abandon Iraq but to support it because he feared that the Al Qeada types would move in and take it over. As simple as that. And he was right to do so.

Al Qaeda is a very small part of the conflict in Iraq. Most of the fighting now is between Iraqis...Sunni vs Shia. However, the same cannot be said of Afghanistan...where the Taliban are resurging.

[Proton]

Quote: well.... if the media shows it yes, more ied's are found and disarmed, than actually go off media dont tell that story do they? you hear of one or 2 ied's a day how many are found, and disarmed? go figure
Well? How many?
Quote: Quote:
Africa, was an example, in order to demonstrate the availability of such weapons. I chose that because of it's image as dirt poor, even poorer than Iraq, yet somehow, managing from the looks of it to have more kalashnikov's than potatoes.
nope different country different means of aquiring weapons, most are hold overs from saddams regime, some are imported from iran or syria by supporters of the terrorists or civil war sects, so no the point is invalid
Ok, actually that's a continent. All of it's countries appear not to have major problems obtaining them. And Chechnya and, unfortunately, Afghanistan and Iraq as well. They get them from Iran, they get them from Syria, and I can tell you, if they have the money, they can get them from all of Africa, Russia, China, the Italian mafia or the Japanese Yakuza as well.

How many times are we going to tell you people that gun control doesn't work. :lol:
Quote:
i have faith in the iraqi people, yet i also have a grip on reality, if the terrorists can they will blow the country apart rather than allow a democracy, and the iraqi people know this so they will succumb to oppressive rule once again, where is your faith in our government?
I have faith in the Iraqi people...

...they country will fall apart and succumb to opressive rule again.

First off, it would take a significant amount of TNT in order to blow the country apart, I estimate the energy required to be in the order of at least a small asteroid, to answer with the same tone you did to my Africa example.
Second, you assume that the "other" Iraqis won't prevail, and the terrorists won't calm down as they now deal with their own culture, and weight the pro&cons of blowing their country up.
Now who is doing the doom&gloom scenarios here?

[The Newb]

Proton wrote: Well? How many?

http://www.realcities.com/mld/krwashington/news/columnists/drew_brown/15566227.htm

Quote: The number of bombs planted against U.S. troops has more than tripled in the last two years and now averages around 1,200 a month, but nearly half of these improvised explosive devices, as the military calls them, are found and disarmed before they explode, and most explosions cause no injuries or deaths.

Quote: About 75 percent of those wounded in the blasts return to duty within 72 hours, evidence that heavier armor on vehicles and other protective measures are saving lives, Meigs said.

Proton wrote: First off, it would take a significant amount of TNT in order to blow the country apart, I estimate the energy required to be in the order of at least a small asteroid, to answer with the same tone you did to my Africa example.

The Newb wrote: nope different country different means of aquiring weapons, most are hold overs from saddams regime, some are imported from iran or syria by supporters of the terrorists or civil war sects, so no the point is invalid

this does not equate to sarcasm to making a point it equates to logic, as far as blowing the country up, not literally, yet if there are no more bodies to work the country it will fall economically apart, and of course dont forget those pesky buildings they seem to be able to destroy, those would not be needed by the remainder of the populace either why would they need places to live, and do business?

Proton wrote: Second, you assume that the "other" Iraqis won't prevail, and the terrorists won't calm down as they now deal with their own culture, and weight the pro&cons of blowing their country up.
Now who is doing the doom&gloom scenarios here?

and they have shown this how? iraq is not the only country with terrorist activities, take a long look at lebenon, and palestine for the mind set of said terrorists, they wont give up until their goals are met

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061126/ts_nm/mideast_dc_69

[Proton]

Quote: this does not equate to sarcasm to making a point it equates to logic, as far as blowing the country up, not literally, yet if there are no more bodies to work the country it will fall economically apart, and of course dont forget those pesky buildings they seem to be able to destroy, those would not be needed by the remainder of the populace either why would they need places to live, and do business?
And as usual, those are their problem. They just have to do peace don't they?
Iraq before had electricity, water, and cities with shops with glass panes from what I have seen from the cities, concrete roads, cars and mobile phones, hotels and tourism even.

The terrorists are their problem. Once there is no occupier, obviously there is no resistance, now as far as the sectarian thing goes, that, especially, is, their, all their, problem. But if the majority really wants peace, I am sure that their arabic brilliance can figure it out. Once they realize that hot water isn't comming until they put all the tubes one after the other.

If anything, rebuilding the economy (by themselves, not handouts that go to "local contractors", corrupt goverment officials, infested police departments with "resistance" and quite possibly terror groups as well) will drive this process. Because in the end, although religion is a powerful factor, eating is a powerful factor as well. Kebab, rice and trade.

But right now. We had originally "the resistance", then we had "the resistance" (because that's how they fancy themselves. And you can't say anything about that. This IS technically a foreign army that has violated their borders) blowing police departments of "traitors who collaborate with the enemy". And in doing that the thing became sectarian.
Quote: and they have shown this how? iraq is not the only country with terrorist activities, take a long look at lebenon, and palestine for the mind set of said terrorists, they wont give up until their goals are met
Terrorists, are not some kind of genetic distinction, and there is no way if this is not understood, and not only them, but the reason that makes them terrorist is eliminated as well.
(within logical amounts. Extremists will always exist. If the members of the "heaven gate" group in the US, who had decided to suicide together in order to catch a UFO following comet haley bopp had decided to blow world trade center insteed, they could certainly do so, because they had about as many members as the hjackers)

But with Israel. It's another, whole big story. Which is pretty amusing as well since Hezbollah, and Al-Quida used to be opposite and enemy organizations as well.

You see, with Israel, from their point of view, there is a small problem.

- WWII happened in Europe, yet the Jews got Palestine.

Which for them, is some irrelevant history somewhere else, and suddenly out of nowhere the equivelant of an invasion appeared. Something like a lot of Mexicans immigrating to Texas and declaring independence. Oh, and another religion as well.

Much like when Germany invaded the allies, England and France united, so did they in the 6 day war. Except that in this case, the allies lost. And expanded. And these events (as opposed to the original Israel getting destroyed by the Roman Empire) are recent enough for Palestinian refugees to exist still.

With that mindset insteed, and Israel doing collective punishments (as it was the thing in lebannon) and such. I can see the situation going for a long, long, long time, which really really didn't need an invasion of Iraq as well.

That's how I see terror, and think that the situation will be a stand off for a long long time, because the terrorists don't see themselves like Heaven Gate's drones, aka just an oddity in it's own world, but being on the right as well, "patriots", "spiritual" and all that.

And for that, it needs some real brains to untie the knots, not just "kill stuff" Infiltrate the networks with personnel AND ideology rather than increase their recruitment. And propaganda in a completely different level. Much like Hezbollah is running for free hospitals in Lebannon and picks the garbage. Generally a much more micromanaging strategy, which I don't have the conservatives in charge capable of even contemplating, in their comic book world where it's just them, and the "terrorists" of doom.

[Trajan]

Progress? If you count a rising death toll for both Iraqis and Coalition, (mostly American), a number of withdrawls from the Coalition. Or the fact that we are no closer to leaving now then we were two years ago. Or the fact that stay the course failed as progress.........

As pointed out above. Fantasy vs reality. And the reality is things are not getting any better. As shown on Nov 7.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it. All of that is reality just as the EID's going off and the buring people are reality. There is a lot going on over there but folks like you see only the bad and none of the good, refuse to acknowledge the good at all, and then base your entire perspective from a totally biased point of view that denies the most significant aspect of the entire subject matter.

And I have no reason to believe you because you've not yet understood at all that you need to at least deal with the full reality before your positions garner any merit at all.

And, again - I don't know how many times I have to spell this out - but I will again - because I am primarily an educator it seems:

Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military. All the bad guys have to do is stop and then all would go well. Or are you one of these folks that believe there are no good and bad guys that it is all a matter of shades of gray?


Amazing, simply amazing :gdgf:

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Game ~ Set ~ Match

Is that all you idiots could find was a hehash of the very same video?

you folks ought to be waterboarded. I'm not kidding. You might as well be the enemy.

I guess the subtle point was lost on you.

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Let's match your words highlighted in bold red with the video's of US soldiers in action which are also highlighted in bold red

Not "a hehash of the very same video" but a reposting of the same video due to you NOT GETTING IT.
Answer my question, do your words match the actions shown in the above video's ?

[The American]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it. All of that is reality just as the EID's going off and the buring people are reality. There is a lot going on over there but folks like you see only the bad and none of the good, refuse to acknowledge the good at all, and then base your entire perspective from a totally biased point of view that denies the most significant aspect of the entire subject matter.

And I have no reason to believe you because you've not yet understood at all that you need to at least deal with the full reality before your positions garner any merit at all.

And, again - I don't know how many times I have to spell this out - but I will again - because I am primarily an educator it seems:

Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military. All the bad guys have to do is stop and then all would go well. Or are you one of these folks that believe there are no good and bad guys that it is all a matter of shades of gray?


Amazing, simply amazing :gdgf:

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Game ~ Set ~ Match

Is that all you idiots could find was a hehash of the very same video?

you folks ought to be waterboarded. I'm not kidding. You might as well be the enemy.

I guess the subtle point was lost on you.

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Let's match your words highlighted in bold red with the video's of US soldiers in action which are also highlighted in bold red

Not "a hehash of the very same video" but a reposting of the same video due to you NOT GETTING IT.
Answer my question, do your words match the actions shown in the above video's ?

How many military personnel do we have stationed in Iraq? Law is very strict on personnel who abuse their positions. However, the information shown paints just part of a picture. Please give the whole story and not just part. Can you give me a conviction? These same things that keep popping up across the net are not confirmed, or their would be conviction. It would be my belief you do not believe in justice in our military courts. Again, where is the conviction? Give the whole story not just part.

Now, one has to ask why these videos are cut? Maybe there is no evidence. Maybe the videos are "doctored". Similar questions were asked with the capture of Hussein, and the killing of his idiot offspring. Proof is in the pudding. Where is yours?

Is there one thing you offer positive? Pessimism can be unhealthy as it leads to depression. Physically, optimistic views are needed to keep the balance. Pessimist as they focus on bad experience and material end up engulfed in them, that they are unable to see that which is good, resulting in a cloudy future for them. Those who embrace optimism, futures are mostly bright, as they have vision and motivation to change that which is not good for the better.

In that, I worry for some.

Trig.

[Chingu]

Yukimor wrote: Chingu, Chingu, Don't you know that wars have always been going on in the mid-east? You speak like you know their culture. Their bible might not tell them to go and kill their own race, but hey, their religion does.

Wars, my friend, have been going on all over the planet for all of history. What has been does not mandate what is to come. Look to the history of any culture and you will see times in their pasts when they were savages prone to horrible actions much like we see militant Islam performing now. Some not all too lang ago. Others far in the past. You can look back to the Northern European Barbarians, the Japanese right up until WW2 was over, any culture anywhere.

I speak like I know their culture because I know their culture at least as well as anyone on here does. I know it because unlike some, I make a concerted effort to know what the hell I'm talking about before I talk about it. You will notice that on subjects where I am lacking in background, I will say, I am not informed enough about this subject to hold an educated opinion or view.

Their religion stems from their bible - Koran, (Q'ran) Quaran - and their religion does not teach anything any more or less violent that any other religion teaches. It is the interpretation of it that is the problem. Just like the Christians misinterperated the bible ages ago in their Crusades and various other hienous acts or the Jews in their hienous acts. The thing is, cultures and religions evolve over time and people "grow up" and learn to live in some stability or reasonable harmony whereas, the terrorist ilk - have yet to evolve to this point in the world of culture and civilization. And throughout history, what it has taken to force people to come to terms with the modern world they are evolving into - is blood and being defeated by superior cultural ideals. that is what is happening to the terrorists now - or at least what we best should hope is happening.

[Chingu]

mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

The same thing I'd tell someone who said that there is no crime/poverty in New York after only going to Broadway

so when i was staioned in baghdad for all of 2005 and saw with my own eyes good things happening it is not good enough for you? sure there is bad, there are bombings, and kidnappings, and murder, yet there is good that NO ONE on the left even acknowledge ....

Like what

[url]https://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/portal/page?_pageid=95,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUfB-hL-7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4wvnT1v
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh6VX1M3SgwERQ [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqp67yfO0cc [/url]
[url]http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/24182.htm [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdwdS72aoA [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVfe8dpodJI
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mxJUADeBdo [/url]
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=645861 [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGmTWw4cr0w [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tKIBgPSf0g [/url][url]http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/cdare8.html [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve7Q8OTHPcU [/url]

you didnt see the OP? that is only a small percentage of things but a good represenative of

Do you mind simply telling me what all those links contains? I don't feel like going on for half an hour following all of the links trying to get a little information

Hello Mr. I'm too important to take an extra minute out of my day to learn about a significant issue relevent to the future of mankind. Just take a look at the first link and read a little. You'll find a whole host of infomation right there.

[Chingu]

Yukimor wrote: Oh yeah, and why should we be involved in the war? Because of OIL :x Duh, i don't care how the republicans try to justify it, WE are in it for the OIl, other people try to say, well, their refineries are no good, that's total B.S. we could go over, pump oil for one moth and that money will pay for the refinery itself! And our stupid, stupid president brought us over there now, and we can't get out! if we do, terrorism will follow us back to the states! :!:

Errr ehh - Mr. I've been asleep for over five years......Do you happen to recall a certain date - oh, what was it - oh yeah! 9/11? Terrorism came over here long before we went into Iraq Sir.

And, it is just pure ignorance - yes, as ignorant as it gets to suggest we are over there for oil. You can not support that argument, there is no justification for it - and the history of this nation doesn't reflect that sort of motivation or indicate imperialism or theft in any way. that idea is a liberal left moonbat conspiracy thoery. When you suggest ignorant and wrongheaded things like that, you cause people like myself, who actually do have a clue, to put a little check mark by your name saying - "moonbat - don't bother to read posts anymore."

[cool_chick]

Chingu wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

The same thing I'd tell someone who said that there is no crime/poverty in New York after only going to Broadway

so when i was staioned in baghdad for all of 2005 and saw with my own eyes good things happening it is not good enough for you? sure there is bad, there are bombings, and kidnappings, and murder, yet there is good that NO ONE on the left even acknowledge ....

Like what

[url]https://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/portal/page?_pageid=95,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUfB-hL-7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4wvnT1v
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh6VX1M3SgwERQ [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqp67yfO0cc [/url]
[url]http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/24182.htm [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdwdS72aoA [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVfe8dpodJI
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mxJUADeBdo [/url]
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=645861 [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGmTWw4cr0w [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tKIBgPSf0g [/url][url]http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/cdare8.html [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve7Q8OTHPcU [/url]

you didnt see the OP? that is only a small percentage of things but a good represenative of

Do you mind simply telling me what all those links contains? I don't feel like going on for half an hour following all of the links trying to get a little information

Hello Mr. I'm too important to take an extra minute out of my day to learn about a significant issue relevent to the future of mankind. Just take a look at the first link and read a little. You'll find a whole host of infomation right there.

Extra "minute"? Try extra whole day! What "host" of information is there? Surely you spent the day cutting/pasting, maybe YOU can tell us what this "whole host of information" is?

Has nothing to do with "important."

I agree with him. It's stupid to give 2 days worth of links without so little as a friggin summary and expect someone to waste days of their life trying to figure out what the opposing point is....

If ya can't verbalize your point and use a link or two to substantiate said point, then it leads me to believe you don't know what your point is....

Newb even agrees.


Additionally, videoclips and photos are greatly misleading. One isn't going to film anythng contrary. As much as you wish it would, it doesn't give the whole picture.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Chingu wrote: Yukimor wrote: Chingu, Chingu, Don't you know that wars have always been going on in the mid-east? You speak like you know their culture. Their bible might not tell them to go and kill their own race, but hey, their religion does.

Wars, my friend, have been going on all over the planet for all of history. What has been does not mandate what is to come. Look to the history of any culture and you will see times in their pasts when they were savages prone to horrible actions much like we see militant Islam performing now. Some not all too lang ago. Others far in the past. You can look back to the Northern European Barbarians, the Japanese right up until WW2 was over, any culture anywhere.

I speak like I know their culture because I know their culture at least as well as anyone on here does. I know it because unlike some, I make a concerted effort to know what the hell I'm talking about before I talk about it. You will notice that on subjects where I am lacking in background, I will say, I am not informed enough about this subject to hold an educated opinion or view.

Their religion stems from their bible - Koran, (Q'ran) Quaran - and their religion does not teach anything any more or less violent that any other religion teaches. It is the interpretation of it that is the problem. Just like the Christians misinterperated the bible ages ago in their Crusades and various other hienous acts or the Jews in their hienous acts. The thing is, cultures and religions evolve over time and people "grow up" and learn to live in some stability or reasonable harmony whereas, the terrorist ilk - have yet to evolve to this point in the world of culture and civilization. And throughout history, what it has taken to force people to come to terms with the modern world they are evolving into - is blood and being defeated by superior cultural ideals. that is what is happening to the terrorists now - or at least what we best should hope is happening.

Chingu wrote: And throughout history, what it has taken to force people to come to terms with the modern world they are evolving into - is blood and being defeated by superior cultural ideals.
Quote: 1767
During the French and Indian War, the English general, Sir Jeffrey Amherst, gives blankets laced with smallpox to Indians loyal to the French. The epidemic decimates the tribes of northeast America.
http://www.fortworthgov.org/health/threats/bio_history1.asp

Quote: Nearly 9,000 Cherokees passed through Southern Illinois between November, 1838, and January, 1839, on their fateful Trail of Tears as the government forced them to abandoned their homes in the Great Smokies to go west to Oklahoma.
http://www.illinoishistory.com/trailoftears.html


Were the Native Americans "defeated by superior cultural ideals" ?

[Chingu]

Chingu wrote: rhill230 wrote: Quote: what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?


What would you say if I told you that I just talked to someone who just got back from Iraq not two weeks ago and he said that the country is in total chaos right now?

We can play the "I talked to this guy game" all day.

I would ask him what part of Iraq he served in and I would alos ask him if he saw anything good going on.


but obviously - you haven't talked with anyone who served there reently - because anyoe who had would be able to tell you about some of the progress being made. Isn't difficult to see.

But, I( suppose there are a few who are serving inthe heat of the bad stuff who wouldn't see everything but the violence that they are dealing with.

the point being- you can't dismiss the good stuff.

Etienne wrote: The point being that three years after Bush declared the end of major combat operations in Iraq, we expect good things to be happening. We do not expect Iraq to be on the brink of civil war. We do not expect 3000+ Iraqis to die each month from ethnic violence.

Quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6141978.stm

The ongoing unrest in Iraq has prompted international calls for Syria and Iran to work with Western powers in seeking an end to sectarian violence there.
The White House has indicated it will consider talking to both countries.

President George W Bush on Monday met members of an expert panel known as the Iraq Study Group, which has been re-evaluating US strategy in Iraq.

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair is also expected to call for Syria and Iran to co-operate in a speech later on Monday.

The UK Foreign Secretary, Margaret Beckett, has already said the two countries should be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

The fact that the US and UK have considered involving Iran and Syria in helping Iraq stabilize should indicate to you that things are really *BEEP* up in Iraq right now.

The point is, no we didn't expect it and no one is suggesting that things are going swimmingly in IRaq. What we are suggesting is that the American people as well as the people all over the world are being presented with a biased and disingenuous view of the reality in Iraq when all that view describes is the sensational worst and none of the best. It doesn't even come close to showing the reality there. And the vast majority of people don't actually take the time to find out what is really going on - not even when it is thrust right in front of their faces as it has been here.

Now, I challenge anyone here to go back throughout the history of humanity and find me a war where everything went well and no one died and guns were not fired and bombs didn't blow up and innocent pople didn't die. You won't find one. War is nasty terrrible and tragic. but, sometimes, it is a better alternative than what could be. That is the case here and now in Iraq.

[Suheil]

The Newb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gkdPEMEGvIE&mode=related&search=

Quote: i dont know why they didnt post right its weird to say the least

America is jinxed!

[cool_chick]

snip

[Chingu]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it. All of that is reality just as the EID's going off and the buring people are reality. There is a lot going on over there but folks like you see only the bad and none of the good, refuse to acknowledge the good at all, and then base your entire perspective from a totally biased point of view that denies the most significant aspect of the entire subject matter.

And I have no reason to believe you because you've not yet understood at all that you need to at least deal with the full reality before your positions garner any merit at all.

And, again - I don't know how many times I have to spell this out - but I will again - because I am primarily an educator it seems:

Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military. All the bad guys have to do is stop and then all would go well. Or are you one of these folks that believe there are no good and bad guys that it is all a matter of shades of gray?


Amazing, simply amazing :gdgf:

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Game ~ Set ~ Match

Is that all you idiots could find was a hehash of the very same video?

you folks ought to be waterboarded. I'm not kidding. You might as well be the enemy.

I guess the subtle point was lost on you.

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Let's match your words highlighted in bold red with the video's of US soldiers in action which are also highlighted in bold red

Not "a hehash of the very same video" but a reposting of the same video due to you NOT GETTING IT.
Answer my question, do your words match the actions shown in the above video's ?

Oh, I see now, you've neglected in following the entire thread. You think it is more important to show an example of a few bad apples among tonnes of good apples because you like to present American soldiers as bad guys because you have some sort of nasty agenda here. I understand that. But 99.999% of our military over there - as I have said - and as we all know if we are honest - are decent and honorable and wouldn't do that sort of thing.

You see - there are a lot of videos out there showing the good things we are doing and while those good things don't take away from the one or two little bad things - they are part of the reality of what is going on in IRaq and for some reason - you choose to view that one little video representative of a .00001% of the bad as being more important to show than the 99.999% of our good actions. I think that demonstrates my point clearly. Some people don't want to be honest about Iraq. Some people have an agenda.