Political Crossfire Forums

[mr.snruB]

The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

The same thing I'd tell someone who said that there is no crime/poverty in New York after only going to Broadway

so when i was staioned in baghdad for all of 2005 and saw with my own eyes good things happening it is not good enough for you? sure there is bad, there are bombings, and kidnappings, and murder, yet there is good that NO ONE on the left even acknowledge ....

Like what

[url]https://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/portal/page?_pageid=95,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUfB-hL-7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4wvnT1v
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh6VX1M3SgwERQ [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqp67yfO0cc [/url]
[url]http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/24182.htm [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdwdS72aoA [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVfe8dpodJI
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mxJUADeBdo [/url]
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=645861 [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGmTWw4cr0w [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tKIBgPSf0g [/url][url]http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/cdare8.html [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve7Q8OTHPcU [/url]

you didnt see the OP? that is only a small percentage of things but a good represenative of

Do you mind simply telling me what all those links contains? I don't feel like going on for half an hour following all of the links trying to get a little information

that would be the porblem that we are having with the left, lack of wanting to veiw things contradictory to what they "believe" to be the status qou.....

No...I'm pretty sure that it's because you couldn't even post them right and now I've got to spend half the goddamn day copying and pasting. If you want to argue something, you shouldn't make it a hassle to have your facts viewed

[The Newb]

mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

The same thing I'd tell someone who said that there is no crime/poverty in New York after only going to Broadway

so when i was staioned in baghdad for all of 2005 and saw with my own eyes good things happening it is not good enough for you? sure there is bad, there are bombings, and kidnappings, and murder, yet there is good that NO ONE on the left even acknowledge ....

Like what

[url]https://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/portal/page?_pageid=95,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUfB-hL-7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4wvnT1v
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh6VX1M3SgwERQ [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqp67yfO0cc [/url]
[url]http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/24182.htm [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdwdS72aoA [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVfe8dpodJI
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mxJUADeBdo [/url]
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=645861 [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGmTWw4cr0w [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tKIBgPSf0g [/url][url]http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/cdare8.html [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve7Q8OTHPcU [/url]

you didnt see the OP? that is only a small percentage of things but a good represenative of

Do you mind simply telling me what all those links contains? I don't feel like going on for half an hour following all of the links trying to get a little information

that would be the porblem that we are having with the left, lack of wanting to veiw things contradictory to what they "believe" to be the status qou.....

No...I'm pretty sure that it's because you couldn't even post them right and now I've got to spend half the goddamn day copying and pasting. If you want to argue something, you shouldn't make it a hassle to have your facts viewed

actually they are all on the OP

i dont know why they didnt post right its weird to say the least

[kohadril]

The Newb wrote: that would be the porblem that we are having with the left, lack of wanting to veiw things contradictory to what they "believe" to be the status qou.....
That problem is not unique to liberals. It's a problem shared by virtually everybody with any opinions. Yes, troops are doing some good things in Iraq. Building schools. Taking down death squads. Going after terrorists. All of those things are true. That doesn't mean that the occupation is going well. Every significant metric for law and order and levels of violence shows Iraq sliding towards civil war. General John Abizaid said as much in front of Congress, and he ought to know. The Army Times has been reporting the uptick in the body count for months. I'm saying this to show that it's not just ivory tower liberals who think that things are falling apart.

I don't think we should leave; I think if we do there will be a quick and one-sided civil war that will end in genocide. And we shouldn't ignore any of the things that are happening in Iraq, whether they show progress or further our sense of doom and gloom. But that doesn't mean I think that things are going well.

[The Newb]

kohadril wrote:
That problem is not unique to liberals. It's a problem shared by virtually everybody with any opinions.

absolutely correct i was merely making a point, thank you for correcting my blanket statement

kohadril wrote:
Yes, troops are doing some good things in Iraq. Building schools. Taking down death squads. Going after terrorists. All of those things are true. That doesn't mean that the occupation is going well.

how does it not, if we left it would be worse, no? not as expected, yet not as bad as it could be....

kohadril wrote:
Every significant metric for law and order and levels of violence shows Iraq sliding towards civil war. General John Abizaid said as much in front of Congress, and he ought to know. The Army Times has been reporting the uptick in the body count for months. I'm saying this to show that it's not just ivory tower liberals who think that things are falling apart.

yes they are, and we are preventing it from being worse with staying there, and still accomplishing good things that are "perversely" ignored by many that would be my point

kohadril wrote:
I don't think we should leave; I think if we do there will be a quick and one-sided civil war that will end in genocide. And we shouldn't ignore any of the things that are happening in Iraq, whether they show progress or further our sense of doom and gloom. But that doesn't mean I think that things are going well.

you are absolutely correct that we should not ignore any of the facts at hand good or bad, yet i do not feel that it ius as bad as most would believe, as you stated it could be much worse

lets not forget that MOST of the violence is caused by the iraqis on iraqis, or terrorists on iraqis

[Lumina]

kohadril wrote: The Newb wrote: that would be the porblem that we are having with the left, lack of wanting to veiw things contradictory to what they "believe" to be the status qou.....
That problem is not unique to liberals. It's a problem shared by virtually everybody with any opinions. Yes, troops are doing some good things in Iraq. Building schools. Taking down death squads. Going after terrorists. All of those things are true. That doesn't mean that the occupation is going well. Every significant metric for law and order and levels of violence shows Iraq sliding towards civil war. General John Abizaid said as much in front of Congress, and he ought to know. The Army Times has been reporting the uptick in the body count for months. I'm saying this to show that it's not just ivory tower liberals who think that things are falling apart.

I don't think we should leave; I think if we do there will be a quick and one-sided civil war that will end in genocide. And we shouldn't ignore any of the things that are happening in Iraq, whether they show progress or further our sense of doom and gloom. But that doesn't mean I think that things are going well.

You're right; looking honestly at contrarian points of view can be very, very difficult and certainly isn't limited to liberals!

I worry too that Iraq is sliding toward civil war and that our leaving will cause genocide.

Could you please define/explain what those "Every significant metric for law and order and levels of violence" markers are?

Thoughtful, respectful post. Thank you.

[Otacon]

I fail to see how things blowing up and American soldiers as well as innocent Iraqi citizens dying is a "good" thing...

[The Newb]

Otacon wrote: I fail to see how things blowing up and American soldiers as well as innocent Iraqi citizens dying is a "good" thing...

that would be the bad part now look at the op's links for the good :wink:

[Chingu]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it. All of that is reality just as the EID's going off and the buring people are reality. There is a lot going on over there but folks like you see only the bad and none of the good, refuse to acknowledge the good at all, and then base your entire perspective from a totally biased point of view that denies the most significant aspect of the entire subject matter.

And I have no reason to believe you because you've not yet understood at all that you need to at least deal with the full reality before your positions garner any merit at all.

And, again - I don't know how many times I have to spell this out - but I will again - because I am primarily an educator it seems:

Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military. All the bad guys have to do is stop and then all would go well. Or are you one of these folks that believe there are no good and bad guys that it is all a matter of shades of gray?


Amazing, simply amazing :gdgf:

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Game ~ Set ~ Match

Is that all you moonbats could find was a rehash of the very same video?

you folks ought to be waterboarded. I'm not kidding. You might as well be the enemy.

[Chingu]

The American wrote: Chingu wrote: There are those who want to focus only on the terrible things going on in Iraq. we know about those because the media focuses on them and the complicit socialist left reinforces the view that nothing is going right. Well, I'm here to tell you that there are a lot of things going right despite the fact that there are also things going wrong.

the reality is that the vast majority of Iraqi's are peace loving people who simply want to live their lives without the fear of getting burned to death or shot in the head or bombed. Our mission, in supporting the freely elected Iraqi government, is to assist the Iraqi government and that vast majority of people in succeeding to accomplish that goal. That's not an easy task obviously.

We face enemies of peace and stability in Iraq. these enemies come in many forms and are driven by many motivations. But there is one thing that is common among them all. These enemies are evil and terrible people who need to be stopped.

So, to contrast the never ending and biased onslaught of negativity and sensationalized news and rhetoric from the left - I am posting just a peek at some of the positive things going on. there are many more things which I could post and probably will -but alas, I have to cook yet another Thanksgiving meal for those in my familiy - myself included - who were unable to take part in the traditional one.


https://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/portal/page?_pageid=95,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUfB-hL-7khttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4wvnT1vERQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh6VX1M3Sgw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqp67yfO0cc
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/24182.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdwdS72aoA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVfe8dpodJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mxJUADeBdo
http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=645861
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGmTWw4cr0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tKIBgPSf0g
http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/cdare8.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve7Q8OTHPcU

And I could just keep this list going and going.

You see how some with media being complicit, fail to show you the real story. The focus only on the negative. There is reality, and then there is the socialist left's alternate reality where everything s*cks and everything is bad and nothing will ever work. One is forced to wonder what exactly it is that the far left wants? Do they want the world to fall apart into Chaos? That seems the case.


One poster here decided that the following was more important to show you than what I have posted. I'm lending balance. It's easy to pick out a few bad apples doing sorry stuff but it is terrible to portray it as typical. It isn't.

Our other poster posted this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9A_vxIOB-I&eurl=

"Winning hearts and minds"

See Sami run
See America run
Out of tune with the Universe
Disgusting!

Well, it is disgusting. But, rational people can see how the stress and mental fatigue of a war torn place like that can effect some people. These folks are not a good representation of what we do. The ones I've depicted in my links are. And, I would suggest that there are 1,000 to 1 good v bad apples in our military.

Changing the face of the Middle East as we have known, is not an easy task. Especially when the media is focused on it, as they lent ways of undermining in previous wars. They tend to leak ways we use to stop terrorist attacks to the world. However, during and in the midst of civil uproar in Iraq, there are many positive things taking place. Improvements are hard to find, that are being reported. It is not because they do not exist, it is because they are ignored.

Quote: Help Iraq Build Government Capacity and Provide Essential Services
The Assyria Women’s Center was dedicated this month. The $230,000 Commander's
Emergency Response Program (CERP) project is a 400 square-meter facility that
includes computers and sewing machines to encourage female business opportunities
and benefits 4,600 Assyria Village residents as well as other area women.

Increase International Support for Iraq
The European Commission launched talks with the Iraqi government in Brussels on
November 20 for a bilateral trade and co-operation agreement. The accord aims to
boost the European Union’s relations with Iraq and integrate the country into the
world economy.

Transition Iraq to Security Self-Reliance – Iraqi Security
Forces

Total Trained & Equipped ISF:
~322,600****

Ministry of Defense Forces = ~134,400** TOTAL

Ministry of Interior Forces = ~188,200** TOTAL

* Ministry of Interior Forces: Unauthorized absence personnel are included in these numbers
** Ministry of Defense Forces: Unauthorized absence personnel are not included in these numbers
*** Army numbers include Special Operations Forces and Support Forces
**** Does not include the approximately 144,000 Facilities Protection Service personnel working in 27
ministries

Data as of November 15, 2006

Employment Update:

Iraqis Last Week = 106,255

Last Week = 107,191

% Increase on the Week = 0.88%

CERP employment numbers are representative of Baghdad only.

Crude Oil Production

Weekly Average (November 13 – 19) of 2.20 Million Barrels Per Day (MBPD)

Crude Oil Export

• 2005 Revenue Estimate: $23.5 Billion
• 2006 Revenue Estimate: $28.5 Billion (Year to Date)

http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/76862.pdf





There is 20 more pages of progress in Iraq just this last week. This includes weapon recovery, taken from insurgency. It does not get reported, and whether people like it or not, life goes on there. People do not cower in there homes afraid to go outside due to violent attacks. They are concerned about their future, and they desire peace.

Trig.

good Lord a real American. we are hard to come by i see but alas - some one who gets it.

Amen brother. Amen.

[Proton]

Quote: Is that all you idiots could find was a hehash of the very same video?

you folks ought to be waterboarded. I'm not kidding. You might as well be the enemy.
Ooooh, why stop there. Enemies don't have rights no? So they deserve to die.

Well by sheer coincidence, this is how the terrorist thing as well. Eg, police recruits. Police helps the occupier, therefore they are the enemy. And enemy has no rights...

Religious conservatives to the left, religious conservatives to the right. Oh, jolly.

Iraq is a mess. It might have been a mess before, but at least it was their mess (unless someone wants to take responsibility for Saddam). Billions of dollars have been wasted when the UN saves tripple the amount of people with 3 Billions of them (hell, just the numbers of people "saved" by the Polio free world program exceed the numbers of Saddam's victims annually). Millions have gone disappearing, mismanaged, and probably straight to terror networks as well since jobs are often given to local contractors, who then willingly or unwillingly pay "protection".

Terrorists are not going away, as long as they have the moral ground that it is "other" forces in "their" country therefore (here is the tricky bit) it's an invader. For every genocidal conservative, judging by the occasional "nuke them all" sentiments that rise in their forums, supposently due to 9/11, there must be another 3 muslims (the least) concidering the 3 9/11 + amount of victims, from "collateral damage" alone... because if we were to count the sectarian fragfest as somehow the US's fault that would be off the scale.

[Chingu]

Yukimor wrote: Chingu, Chingu, Don't you know that wars have always been going on in the mid-east? You speak like you know their culture. Their bible might not tell them to go and kill their own race, but hey, their religion does.

You have no idea what you are talking about. I have been there over and over. I speak with them. I am with them in spirit. they are overrrun with bad poeple. You don't understand. it is hard to express without sounding like I am being an over optomistic American = but it is true nevertheless - that what we are doing is saving the world from a greater tagedy than whatis already going on.

You may think that all Muslims are bad. i know differntley.

You may think that the situation is untenablle - I know differently.

Fear on brother = and live the grand lie of your time. John Karry is still living his. You might turn out just like his - but without the fame for being ignorant and destructive to the free world and all good people.

[Proton]

Quote: There is 20 more pages of progress in Iraq just this last week. This includes weapon recovery, taken from insurgency. It does not get reported, and whether people like it or not, life goes on there. People do not cower in there homes afraid to go outside due to violent attacks. They are concerned about their future, and they desire peace.
Trig.
Maybe you don't know how to write nice "reports", but weapon recovery is military for: "we found some kalashnikov's".

A look at Africa will tell you how much of a rare strategic loss those are.

As for the people, pardon me, the Iraqi people who once had an, what was it? Oh yes... Iraqi, dictator. If they are really so concerned about peace, here is a very easy thing to do.

Once the US pulls out and stops messing around, no longer having an invader to blame. With great use of something called "personal responsibility" and "sovereignty" they give hands, make peace, and re-built their country into a space faring utopia. Or maybe not.

[Chingu]

Otacon wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

Terrorism is worse now than prior to the invasion. Besides, the Iraqi people don't really want us in their country, so why can't we respect their wishes and leave?

Jeez - Terrorism is not worse. Violence is due to many reasons. The Iraqi people have voted and have made it p0erfectly clear that they want us tostay until the nation is able to defend itself and stabilize. Commone sense right?

We are respecting their wishes by staying and supporting and training and helping themin every way we can.

Apparently - sopme of you have a hard ime distinguishing between the bed guys and thegood guys. you're welcome tojoin the Jihadists if ou think that you can win.

[Chingu]

rhill230 wrote: Quote: what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?


What would you say if I told you that I just talked to someone who just got back from Iraq not two weeks ago and he said that the country is in total chaos right now?

We can play the "I talked to this guy game" all day.

I would ask him what part of Iraq he served in and I would alos ask him if he saw anything good going on.


but obviously - you haven't talked with anyone who served there reently - because anyoe who had would be able to tell you about some of the progress being made. Isn't difficult to see.

But, I( suppose there are a few who are serving inthe heat of the bad stuff who wouldn't see everything but the violence that they are dealing with.

the point being- you can't dismiss the good stuff.

[The Newb]

Proton wrote:
Maybe you don't know how to write nice "reports", but weapon recovery is military for: "we found some kalashnikov's".

maybe it also means:

1. bomb making equipment
2. artillery shells ( used in ied's )
3. explosives used in making suicide vests
4. mortars
5. portable rokets
6. rpg's
7. ect....

Proton wrote: A look at Africa will tell you how much of a rare strategic loss those are.

its about iraq not africa

Proton wrote: As for the people, pardon me, the Iraqi people who once had an, what was it? Oh yes... Iraqi, dictator. If they are really so concerned about peace, here is a very easy thing to do.

they want peace as a majority, the minority want to have a civil war and bring back oppressive rule

Proton wrote: Once the US pulls out and stops messing around, no longer having an invader to blame. With great use of something called "personal responsibility" and "sovereignty" they give hands, make peace, and re-built their country into a space faring utopia. Or maybe not.

uh yeah ok .... :roll:

[Etienne]

Chingu wrote: Etienne wrote: Chingu wrote: Alizard wrote: Lumina wrote: I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

I often wonder just how bad their civil war will have to get before we stop hearing rubbish like this.

Clearly, 4000 dead per month isn't enough because that's where we are now in Iraq and you are still trying to project the ludicrous assertion that the "doom and gloom" is just a media ploy to sell papers.

Like I said..... I wonder when it will get bad enough that you will admit the truth, or at least stop printing the same old lie about how the media is to blame for the reports of the horrors in Iraq.

Phew - hard to deal with folks who just don't get it.

There is a mission to accomplish here that, if we fail has consequences. This is war! People DIE in war! No one is suggesting that people dying in war is a good thing! Damnit I loose patience.

the point is, it could be far worse. The point is that ALL WE HEAR ABOUT IS THE DAMNED BAD AND NONE OF THE GOOD! And, there is plenty of good to be reported but the media and the left refuse to do so in an effort to paint IRaq only in it's most negative light and to undermine the mission which is to make a better future not only for IRaq but for the region and thus the world!

4,000 people a month dying is bad. We all know that. It's tragic - it's terrible. 10,000 would be worse - do you agree? We are fighting evil here folks. This isn't a game of nyumbers - it's a real world situation that requires being solved. Unfortunately, to solve it - people have to die because the enemy here isn't going to stop being bad just because we stop killing or capturing them - hey will only get worse.

Comprende? Do you want things to get a lot worse? Is that your goal? Do you really think that were America to withdraw that suddenly all the violence would dry up and teh songbirds would sing and rainbows and candy would fall from th sky? THINK MAN! THINK!

Just tell us which side we are on...

Are we on the side of the Sunnis?

Or are we on the side of the Shiites?

niether and both. We're on the side of those who want a reasonably stable and peaceful way forward which is the vast majority of Iraqi's. I other words, we're on the side of the good guys and against the bad. there are some bad Sunni and some bad Shiite. There are many good of both.

Neither and both? Is this more doublethinking?

The Shia are killing the Sunnis, and the Sunnis are killing the Shia. These are Iraqis killing Iraqis. How are you going to create a peaceful and stable Iraq when both sides appear to be bent on killing each other? How are you going to prevent Islamic extremists, some of whom support Iran, from dominating Iraq's goverment once the killing stops?

One would think that three years after Bush declared the end of major combat operations in Iraq, there would be more "progress" in Iraq than 3000+ Iraqis killed each month from ethnic violence.

[Chingu]

mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

The same thing I'd tell someone who said that there is no crime/poverty in New York after only going to Broadway

No - it's more like someone who was stationed in NYC but failed to see the rest of NY. Otr even failed to see some of the good going on in NYC.

[The Newb]

Chingu wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

The same thing I'd tell someone who said that there is no crime/poverty in New York after only going to Broadway

No - it's more like someone who was stationed in NYC but failed to see the rest of NY. Otr even failed to see some of the good going on in NYC.

i think what these guys are trying to say is that they would rather call bulls**t than ask what was good, and trying to understand a little more past their own bias

[Chingu]

Etienne wrote: Chingu wrote: Etienne wrote: Chingu wrote: Alizard wrote: Lumina wrote: I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

I often wonder just how bad their civil war will have to get before we stop hearing rubbish like this.

Clearly, 4000 dead per month isn't enough because that's where we are now in Iraq and you are still trying to project the ludicrous assertion that the "doom and gloom" is just a media ploy to sell papers.

Like I said..... I wonder when it will get bad enough that you will admit the truth, or at least stop printing the same old lie about how the media is to blame for the reports of the horrors in Iraq.

Phew - hard to deal with folks who just don't get it.

There is a mission to accomplish here that, if we fail has consequences. This is war! People DIE in war! No one is suggesting that people dying in war is a good thing! Damnit I loose patience.

the point is, it could be far worse. The point is that ALL WE HEAR ABOUT IS THE DAMNED BAD AND NONE OF THE GOOD! And, there is plenty of good to be reported but the media and the left refuse to do so in an effort to paint IRaq only in it's most negative light and to undermine the mission which is to make a better future not only for IRaq but for the region and thus the world!

4,000 people a month dying is bad. We all know that. It's tragic - it's terrible. 10,000 would be worse - do you agree? We are fighting evil here folks. This isn't a game of nyumbers - it's a real world situation that requires being solved. Unfortunately, to solve it - people have to die because the enemy here isn't going to stop being bad just because we stop killing or capturing them - hey will only get worse.

Comprende? Do you want things to get a lot worse? Is that your goal? Do you really think that were America to withdraw that suddenly all the violence would dry up and teh songbirds would sing and rainbows and candy would fall from th sky? THINK MAN! THINK!

Just tell us which side we are on...

Are we on the side of the Sunnis?

Or are we on the side of the Shiites?

niether and both. We're on the side of those who want a reasonably stable and peaceful way forward which is the vast majority of Iraqi's. I other words, we're on the side of the good guys and against the bad. there are some bad Sunni and some bad Shiite. There are many good of both.

Neither and both? Is this more doublethinking?

The Shia are killing the Sunnis, and the Sunnis are killing the Shia. These are Iraqis killing Iraqis. How are you going to create a peaceful and stable Iraq when both sides appear to be bent on killing each other? How are you going to prevent Islamic extremists, some of whom support Iran, from dominating Iraq's goverment once the killing stops?

One would think that three years after Bush declared the end of major combat operations in Iraq, there would be more "progress" in Iraq than 3000+ Iraqis killed each month from ethnic violence.

You will be amazed at what the real peple in Iraq do for themselves over time. you are impatient and overly worried about a situation which has been brewing for decades - if not centuries. Let it play out a little and see where it goes. I'll bet you the good guys win and the bad guys get defeated.

BTW - we did win the initial war - so I don't know why you leftists keep harping on Bush declaring an end to major hostilities. that was a leader saying we won. We did. Point made. move on.

We are now in a secondary war. Bush decided not to abandon Iraq but to support it because he feared that the Al Qeada types would move in and take it over. As simple as that. And he was right to do so.

[Chingu]

The Newb wrote: Chingu wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

The same thing I'd tell someone who said that there is no crime/poverty in New York after only going to Broadway

No - it's more like someone who was stationed in NYC but failed to see the rest of NY. Otr even failed to see some of the good going on in NYC.

i think what these guys are trying to say is that they would rather call bulls**t than ask what was good, and trying to understand a little more past their own bias

Apparently - amd disturbingly.