Political Crossfire Forums

[Chingu]

beachbum bob wrote: Chingu wrote:
And furthermore - If Bush had not gone into Iraq what do you think you and these folks would be saying about Bush now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeBROshZ0M

You know - it's hard to put all this together and understand the larger picture here -I'll give you that - but you should at least be honest about it.


perhaps they be saying...great job in Afghanistan with democracy working and fantastic that OBL was captured, tried and executed...and containment seems to working just fine with Iraq...instead of the reality of those disasters too

BTW, character is also admitting mistakes...and taking corrective action...something thats been missing for a few years with the bush admin policies on Iraq

When you're in a war you don't tell the enemy - gee - I made a mistake. However, I and most others who support doing what is right understand that everything hasn't gone eprfectly. I've said as have others many times that there are aspects where we made some serious miscalculations. But, because you make some serious miscalculations doesn't mean you surrender. You take corrective action, do what you need it do. And that's what we've been doing. Some of it effectively - some not so effectively. All of that though is irrelevent to the point of the necessity of succeeding in Iraq.

I don't know how many times you and others have been informed that our military and our tactices change all the time to meet new challenges that the enemy places on us. In many cases we are proactive and take alternative measures before the need arises. but you just ignore that fact because it doesn't support your view. Convenient huh?

Character is also, as I said, doing what is right regardless of teh challenge of it or how difficult it might be. Character is doing what you say and saying what you do. Character is honesty and integrity. Character is standing up for principles. Bush scores very high on those points of character - though I'm sure you'll fabricate some conspiracy thoery to dismiss that truth.

[Chingu]

ZeroTolerance wrote: Chingu wrote:
Quote: We didn't loose Vietnam militarily. We lost it / withdrew because we lacked the will to win. Social left progressives - the anti-war communists and the peacenicks pressured us to withdraw.

So we were winning the war in Vietnam?? The "peaceniks" and "communists" at home were the reason we lost in Vietnam? They "pressured" us to withdraw? So in other words, things were going "as planned" in Vietnam, that is, until the peaceniks and communists intervened, causing total failure in Vietnam?

That is completely grasping at straws, using an argument based in 1950s commie fear. As well, your statement that we didn't lose militarily is a complete fallacy.

Quote: Walter Coronkite and his minions of biased media anchors and reporters portrayed Vietnam innaccurately to the American people thus reinforcing a negative view across society.

With a media as diverse as the United States', with both idealist and realist standpoints, you are actually saying that it was a direct reason we lost Vietnam? Not only do I disagree 100%, your point is also complete speculation. Is this the "Cronkite Conspiracy"? :lol:

Apparently you've been hoodwinked by the far left. What I have said is exactly right and correct. We never lost a single military engagement of any signifigance in Vietnam nor did we even come close to loosing the Tet offensive in which we pounded the living crap out of the Communists. Yet, Mr. Conkite, in all of his complicity with the agenda of portraying the war as a lost cause, portrayed the Tet as a loss for Americans when it was nothing of the sort. That is fact, my friend - fact.

And because we were not loosing in any measure of teh word in Vietnam it sort of goes without saying that the loss caused by our premature withdrawl there was the result of a lack of popular support for victory there. this was caused by the society as it was at the time falling into social revolution with a complicit media that misportrayed the war.

now, anyone can argue the merits of the worth of Vietnam and our involvement there - but to say we lost for any other reason besides a lack of public support and to say that the media had not misled the American people is to reject the facts in favor of a misguided agenda.

Here friend; read this and learn:

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9B0CE4DA1439F93BA35752C1A965948260

You see, old Walt - our limp-wristed ubber trusted American journalist there - decided to take it upon himself to declare victory for the enemy. Of course, it took him 50,000 dead before he decided to declare a loss for America thus snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, but in doing so, he, along with other media sources won the battle that the Vietcong were trying to win all along.

We see the samed damned idiocy today with the limp-wristed left declaring a loss when nothing of the sort is at hand. The elft, playing right into the enemies handbook is, in a very real way, in alliance with the enemies of peace.

You wonder why some of us get a little bent out of shape? I'll tell you why. I have a vested interest in the future. I have a 12 year old, very intelligent and motivated daughter who, I would like to see be able to live a life in a world that is not locked into a terrible fight with whacked out evil forces that were allowed to grow and gain strength and then wage a much larger war against the west and to me - as is the case with other rational people - it is worth whatever it takes to take care of the necessary business of defeating these evil enemies now rather than elaving that challenge - a much worse challenge to our children in the future when the world may very well be more rife with nuclear weapons in the hands of our enemies and other WMD that we find increasingly hard to defend against and which are far more capable of being transported across borders and used as weapons of terror.

[Chingu]

beachbum bob wrote: ZeroTolerance wrote: Chingu wrote:
Quote: We didn't loose Vietnam militarily. We lost it / withdrew because we lacked the will to win. Social left progressives - the anti-war communists and the peacenicks pressured us to withdraw.

So we were winning the war in Vietnam?? The "peaceniks" and "communists" at home were the reason we lost in Vietnam? They "pressured" us to withdraw? So in other words, things were going "as planned" in Vietnam, that is, until the peaceniks and communists intervened, causing total failure in Vietnam?

That is completely grasping at straws, using an argument based in 1950s commie fear. As well, your statement that we didn't lose militarily is a complete fallacy.

Quote: Walter Coronkite and his minions of biased media anchors and reporters portrayed Vietnam innaccurately to the American people thus reinforcing a negative view across society.

With a media as diverse as the United States', with both idealist and realist standpoints, you are actually saying that it was a direct reason we lost Vietnam? Not only do I disagree 100%, your point is also complete speculation. Is this the "Cronkite Conspiracy"? :lol:


same old tired argument...Vietnam couldn't be "won" by any outside force....the french learned that, America learned that...

and what was the aftermath?? Did SE asia succumb to communism, did the commies take over Japan, S. Korea??

nope....

john wayne mentality.....only works in the movies

Hmm, let's examine this shall we? laos, Cambodia, Vietnam? That's pretty much SE asia. ALl were overrun with communists who then went about a massive genocide and purging - one of the very worst in the istory of humanity. The others that compare were also eprpetrated by Marxists and communists in Stalin and Mao. millions were murdered in cold blood. Women, children and men alike. nice thought huh? Oh, and N. Korea as well.

And the only reason S. Korea didn't get overrun by Communists and the only reason they are not now starving with millions dead is because we fought the N. Koreans and kept them from taking the entire pennisula - thank you very much.

Yes, John Wayne philosophy works - there sould be a hell of a lot more of it.

The only reason Japan wasn't overrun by China, Russia or the N. Koreans or all of th above is because the United States made it perfectly clear that we would defend Japan in the aftermath of WW2 - thank you very much - you make my point well.

Good Lord it is difficult when people are simply so far from reality and have no real idea of history.

[Alizard]

Lumina wrote: I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

I often wonder just how bad their civil war will have to get before we stop hearing rubbish like this.

Clearly, 4000 dead per month isn't enough because that's where we are now in Iraq and you are still trying to project the ludicrous assertion that the "doom and gloom" is just a media ploy to sell papers.

Like I said..... I wonder when it will get bad enough that you will admit the truth, or at least stop printing the same old lie about how the media is to blame for the reports of the horrors in Iraq.

[Chingu]

Alizard wrote: Lumina wrote: I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

I often wonder just how bad their civil war will have to get before we stop hearing rubbish like this.

Clearly, 4000 dead per month isn't enough because that's where we are now in Iraq and you are still trying to project the ludicrous assertion that the "doom and gloom" is just a media ploy to sell papers.

Like I said..... I wonder when it will get bad enough that you will admit the truth, or at least stop printing the same old lie about how the media is to blame for the reports of the horrors in Iraq.

Phew - hard to deal with folks who just don't get it.

There is a mission to accomplish here that, if we fail has consequences. This is war! People DIE in war! No one is suggesting that people dying in war is a good thing! Damnit I loose patience.

the point is, it could be far worse. The point is that ALL WE HEAR ABOUT IS THE DAMNED BAD AND NONE OF THE GOOD! And, there is plenty of good to be reported but the media and the left refuse to do so in an effort to paint IRaq only in it's most negative light and to undermine the mission which is to make a better future not only for IRaq but for the region and thus the world!

4,000 people a month dying is bad. We all know that. It's tragic - it's terrible. 10,000 would be worse - do you agree? We are fighting evil here folks. This isn't a game of nyumbers - it's a real world situation that requires being solved. Unfortunately, to solve it - people have to die because the enemy here isn't going to stop being bad just because we stop killing or capturing them - hey will only get worse.

Comprende? Do you want things to get a lot worse? Is that your goal? Do you really think that were America to withdraw that suddenly all the violence would dry up and teh songbirds would sing and rainbows and candy would fall from th sky? THINK MAN! THINK!

[Etienne]

Chingu wrote: Alizard wrote: Lumina wrote: I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

I often wonder just how bad their civil war will have to get before we stop hearing rubbish like this.

Clearly, 4000 dead per month isn't enough because that's where we are now in Iraq and you are still trying to project the ludicrous assertion that the "doom and gloom" is just a media ploy to sell papers.

Like I said..... I wonder when it will get bad enough that you will admit the truth, or at least stop printing the same old lie about how the media is to blame for the reports of the horrors in Iraq.

Phew - hard to deal with folks who just don't get it.

There is a mission to accomplish here that, if we fail has consequences. This is war! People DIE in war! No one is suggesting that people dying in war is a good thing! Damnit I loose patience.

the point is, it could be far worse. The point is that ALL WE HEAR ABOUT IS THE DAMNED BAD AND NONE OF THE GOOD! And, there is plenty of good to be reported but the media and the left refuse to do so in an effort to paint IRaq only in it's most negative light and to undermine the mission which is to make a better future not only for IRaq but for the region and thus the world!

4,000 people a month dying is bad. We all know that. It's tragic - it's terrible. 10,000 would be worse - do you agree? We are fighting evil here folks. This isn't a game of nyumbers - it's a real world situation that requires being solved. Unfortunately, to solve it - people have to die because the enemy here isn't going to stop being bad just because we stop killing or capturing them - hey will only get worse.

Comprende? Do you want things to get a lot worse? Is that your goal? Do you really think that were America to withdraw that suddenly all the violence would dry up and teh songbirds would sing and rainbows and candy would fall from th sky? THINK MAN! THINK!

Just tell us which side we are on...

Are we on the side of the Sunnis?

Or are we on the side of the Shiites?

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

[Chingu]

Etienne wrote: Chingu wrote: Alizard wrote: Lumina wrote: I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

I often wonder just how bad their civil war will have to get before we stop hearing rubbish like this.

Clearly, 4000 dead per month isn't enough because that's where we are now in Iraq and you are still trying to project the ludicrous assertion that the "doom and gloom" is just a media ploy to sell papers.

Like I said..... I wonder when it will get bad enough that you will admit the truth, or at least stop printing the same old lie about how the media is to blame for the reports of the horrors in Iraq.

Phew - hard to deal with folks who just don't get it.

There is a mission to accomplish here that, if we fail has consequences. This is war! People DIE in war! No one is suggesting that people dying in war is a good thing! Damnit I loose patience.

the point is, it could be far worse. The point is that ALL WE HEAR ABOUT IS THE DAMNED BAD AND NONE OF THE GOOD! And, there is plenty of good to be reported but the media and the left refuse to do so in an effort to paint IRaq only in it's most negative light and to undermine the mission which is to make a better future not only for IRaq but for the region and thus the world!

4,000 people a month dying is bad. We all know that. It's tragic - it's terrible. 10,000 would be worse - do you agree? We are fighting evil here folks. This isn't a game of nyumbers - it's a real world situation that requires being solved. Unfortunately, to solve it - people have to die because the enemy here isn't going to stop being bad just because we stop killing or capturing them - hey will only get worse.

Comprende? Do you want things to get a lot worse? Is that your goal? Do you really think that were America to withdraw that suddenly all the violence would dry up and teh songbirds would sing and rainbows and candy would fall from th sky? THINK MAN! THINK!

Just tell us which side we are on...

Are we on the side of the Sunnis?

Or are we on the side of the Shiites?

niether and both. We're on the side of those who want a reasonably stable and peaceful way forward which is the vast majority of Iraqi's. I other words, we're on the side of the good guys and against the bad. there are some bad Sunni and some bad Shiite. There are many good of both.

[Chingu]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it. All of that is reality just as the EID's going off and the buring people are reality. There is a lot going on over there but folks like you see only the bad and none of the good, refuse to acknowledge the good at all, and then base your entire perspective from a totally biased point of view that denies the most significant aspect of the entire subject matter.

And I have no reason to believe you because you've not yet understood at all that you need to at least deal with the full reality before your positions garner any merit at all.

And, again - I don't know how many times I have to spell this out - but I will again - because I am primarily an educator it seems:

Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military. All the bad guys have to do is stop and then all would go well. Or are you one of these folks that believe there are no good and bad guys that it is all a matter of shades of gray?

[Omega1]

Quote: Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it.

"The report says worsening security and increasing poverty has caused "unparalleled" population movement. It estimates 100,000 people leave Iraq every month and more than 2 million people, about 8 percent of the population, have fled their homes since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. The monthly emigration is equivalent to a million Americans going abroad and a loss to the U.S. economy of a city the size of Detroit every four weeks."
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/COL231696.htm

The [Iraq] nation's health has deteriorated to a level not seen since the 1950s, said Joseph Chamie, former director of the U.N. Population Division and an Iraq specialist. "They were at the forefront", he said, referring to healthcare just before the 1991 Persian Gulf War. "Now they're looking more and more like a country in sub-Saharan Africa."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-health11nov11,1,7515074.story?coll=la-headlines-world&ctrack=1&cset=true

[Saracen]

Just a reminder: I know that many Iraqis want peace and all, but it's the Coalition and those in power who are feudalist-favoring who do not want to see peace.

Mohammed Salih wrote: The worst killings on a single day since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 sent Baghdad reeling Thursday, but they top a casualty toll that has been rising alarmingly. The toll has been rising dramatically already. A United Nations report indicates that violence hit a new high during October. November looks certain to be worse, with preliminary figures indicating a higher toll in November even before the Thursday bombings.

Dahr Jamail wrote: After three and a half years of occupation, Iraq's medical system has sunk to levels lower than seen during the economic sanctions imposed after the first Gulf war in 1990. The World Health Organisation (WHO) has said Iraqis are now extremely vulnerable in their health needs.The health situation in Iraq has been in constant decline since the beginning of the U.S.-backed UN-imposed sanctions in 1990. Iraqi doctors were reputed to be the best in the Middle East during the 1980's, but now they are short of medicines, medical equipment and funding to maintain the hospitals.

Fighting violence with violence, the Coalition's strategy, is exacerbating this situation, and it won't get any better if the Coalition sticks around.

[Heinz]

Quote: Fighting violence with violence, the Coalition's strategy, is exacerbating this situation, and it won't get any better if the Coalition sticks around.

Same can be said for the Palestinian effort against Israel.

Does it make it worse? Maybe, but it depends on what you feel is "worse" then before. You may feel that if it brings terrorist out of the woodwork and into the open it puts us in a worse situatio. I may feel that you may only choose to accept the "fight fire with fire policy" if it is being practiced by your people. I also feel that many of these insurgents in Iraq were terrorist long before the war and have now been given a place to do their bidding. Is this worse? If you're the Iraqi people it may be, but for the coalition, whose plan was to create a segway that would lead terrorist to them it may be better than before.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it. All of that is reality just as the EID's going off and the buring people are reality. There is a lot going on over there but folks like you see only the bad and none of the good, refuse to acknowledge the good at all, and then base your entire perspective from a totally biased point of view that denies the most significant aspect of the entire subject matter.

And I have no reason to believe you because you've not yet understood at all that you need to at least deal with the full reality before your positions garner any merit at all.

And, again - I don't know how many times I have to spell this out - but I will again - because I am primarily an educator it seems:

Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military. All the bad guys have to do is stop and then all would go well. Or are you one of these folks that believe there are no good and bad guys that it is all a matter of shades of gray?


Amazing, simply amazing :gdgf:

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Game ~ Set ~ Match

[The American]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it. All of that is reality just as the EID's going off and the buring people are reality. There is a lot going on over there but folks like you see only the bad and none of the good, refuse to acknowledge the good at all, and then base your entire perspective from a totally biased point of view that denies the most significant aspect of the entire subject matter.

And I have no reason to believe you because you've not yet understood at all that you need to at least deal with the full reality before your positions garner any merit at all.

And, again - I don't know how many times I have to spell this out - but I will again - because I am primarily an educator it seems:

Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military. All the bad guys have to do is stop and then all would go well. Or are you one of these folks that believe there are no good and bad guys that it is all a matter of shades of gray?


Amazing, simply amazing :gdgf:

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Game ~ Set ~ Match

We can complain all day about what is taking place in Iraq, as we focus on that which is bad. Do you acknowledge there is good accomplishments in Iraq? Simple yes or no would be fine. If it is civilian casualties on your agenda, I am not interested. We have seen civilian casualties in war before. It is not pretty, but then again, the process of war is not as well. Let's hear a solution. Pulling out is not an option for solution. We have learned from history the cost of that action. If it is civilian casualties your most concern, that thought shouldn't be your option.

Trig.

[Saracen]

Heinz wrote: Quote: Fighting violence with violence, the Coalition's strategy, is exacerbating this situation, and it won't get any better if the Coalition sticks around.

Same can be said for the Palestinian effort against Israel.

Does it make it worse? Maybe, but it depends on what you feel is "worse" then before. You may feel that if it brings terrorist out of the woodwork and into the open it puts us in a worse situatio. I may feel that you may only choose to accept the "fight fire with fire policy" if it is being practiced by your people. I also feel that many of these insurgents in Iraq were terrorist long before the war and have now been given a place to do their bidding. Is this worse? If you're the Iraqi people it may be, but for the coalition, whose plan was to create a segway that would lead terrorist to them it may be better than before.

Where did I state that I support violence against violence? I support only passive resistance. I don't support terrorism, whether it's Coalition, Palestinian, or Israeli terrorism, so don't put words into my mouth. It doesn't make your position look any better.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

The American wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it. All of that is reality just as the EID's going off and the buring people are reality. There is a lot going on over there but folks like you see only the bad and none of the good, refuse to acknowledge the good at all, and then base your entire perspective from a totally biased point of view that denies the most significant aspect of the entire subject matter.

And I have no reason to believe you because you've not yet understood at all that you need to at least deal with the full reality before your positions garner any merit at all.

And, again - I don't know how many times I have to spell this out - but I will again - because I am primarily an educator it seems:

Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military. All the bad guys have to do is stop and then all would go well. Or are you one of these folks that believe there are no good and bad guys that it is all a matter of shades of gray?


Amazing, simply amazing :gdgf:

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Game ~ Set ~ Match

We can complain all day about what is taking place in Iraq, as we focus on that which is bad. Do you acknowledge there is good accomplishments in Iraq? Simple yes or no would be fine. If it is civilian casualties on your agenda, I am not interested. We have seen civilian casualties in war before. It is not pretty, but then again, the process of war is not as well. Let's hear a solution. Pulling out is not an option for solution. We have learned from history the cost of that action. If it is civilian casualties your most concern, that thought shouldn't be your option.

Trig.

1.) "Do you acknowledge there is good accomplishments in Iraq?" I've already said yes many times.
2.) "Let's hear a solution" I've offered genuine solutions and they get pushed to page 5 without comment.
3.) "civilian casualties " All life is precious

[The American]

Saracen wrote: Just a reminder: I know that many Iraqis want peace and all, but it's the Coalition and those in power who are feudalist-favoring who do not want to see peace.

Mohammed Salih wrote: The worst killings on a single day since the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq in 2003 sent Baghdad reeling Thursday, but they top a casualty toll that has been rising alarmingly. The toll has been rising dramatically already. A United Nations report indicates that violence hit a new high during October. November looks certain to be worse, with preliminary figures indicating a higher toll in November even before the Thursday bombings.

Dahr Jamail wrote: After three and a half years of occupation, Iraq's medical system has sunk to levels lower than seen during the economic sanctions imposed after the first Gulf war in 1990. The World Health Organisation (WHO) has said Iraqis are now extremely vulnerable in their health needs.The health situation in Iraq has been in constant decline since the beginning of the U.S.-backed UN-imposed sanctions in 1990. Iraqi doctors were reputed to be the best in the Middle East during the 1980's, but now they are short of medicines, medical equipment and funding to maintain the hospitals.

Fighting violence with violence, the Coalition's strategy, is exacerbating this situation, and it won't get any better if the Coalition sticks around.

Not all Iraqi's wish us gone. If it were so, we would not have been there this long. Starting a civil war in Iraq has been a threat to America for quite sometime now. We are seeing the effects of this now.


Quote: Iraq : No. 2 Al Qaeda Head in Iraq Arrested
Posted by Editor on 2006/9/3 12:47:45

"We believe that Al Qaeda in Iraq suffers from a serious leadership crisis. Our troops have dealt fatal and painful blows to this organization," the security adviser said.

Iraqi officials believe that Al-Saeedi was "directly responsible" for Haitham Sabah Shaker Mohammed al-Badri, the alleged mastermind of the February bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra, 60 miles north of Baghdad, al-Rubaie added without elaborating.

http://www.lincolntribune.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=5336

Iraqi Authorities: Al Qaeda in Iraq No. 2 Arrested

Al-Saeedi was "directly responsible" for Haitham Sabah Shaker Mohammed al-Badri, the alleged mastermind of the February bombing of a Shiite shrine in Samarra, 60 miles north of Baghdad, al-Rubaie added without elaborating.

The bombing inflamed tensions between Shiite and Sunni Muslims and triggered reprisal attacks that have killed hundreds of Iraqis and continue to this day. Al-Badri remains at large.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,211960,00.html

U.S. Intel: Qaeda Plotting 'Big Bang'
CBS News Reports Major Terror Attack Planned For Iraq

March 2, 2006

On Thursday, a bomb ripped through a vegetable market in a Shiite section of Baghdad and a leading Sunni politician escaped an attack on his convoy as at least 36 people were killed in unrelenting violence pushing Iraq toward civil war.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/03/02/iraq/main1364828.shtml

We know who is stirring up the violence in Iraq. It is not the Coalition. If the citizens want to see us gone, they should ask us to leave. Until Iraq is strong enough to stand on her own, I don't think it will happen. The sure way to keep us there is keep on killing Iraq innocence.

Now, is there something positive you would like to add?

Quote: President Bush Addresses
United Nations General Assembly


"Nearly 12 million of you braved the car bombers and assassins last December to vote in free elections. The world saw you hold up purple ink-stained fingers, and your courage filled us with admiration. You've stood firm in the face of horrendous acts of terror and sectarian violence -- and we will not abandon you in your struggle to build a free nation. America and our coalition partners will continue to stand with the democratic government you elected. We will continue to help you secure the international assistance and investment you need to create jobs and opportunity, working with the United Nations and through the International Compact with Iraq endorsed here in New York yesterday. We will continue to train those of you who stepped forward to fight the enemies of freedom. We will not yield the future of your country to terrorists and extremists. In return, your leaders must rise to the challenges your country is facing, and make difficult choices to bring security and prosperity. Working together, we will help your democracy succeed, so it can become a beacon of hope for millions in the Muslim world."
-- President George W. Bush
September 19, 2006



http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/iraq/

Some have been swayed by acts of violence one against the other. Or is it as it seems?

[mr.snruB]

Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

[The Newb]

mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

[Sands]

The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?
That he has "tunnel vision" or poor peripheral vision.