Political Crossfire Forums

[Suheil]

Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

:gdgf: I could show just how bad the links you've provided are promoting unrealistic propaganda.

Believe me when I tell you, I wish things were different and our Nation was making the lives of the Iraqi people better.
Unfortunately, that is NOT the case !

Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it. All of that is reality just as the EID's going off and the buring people are reality. There is a lot going on over there but folks like you see only the bad and none of the good, refuse to acknowledge the good at all, and then base your entire perspective from a totally biased point of view that denies the most significant aspect of the entire subject matter.

And I have no reason to believe you because you've not yet understood at all that you need to at least deal with the full reality before your positions garner any merit at all.

And, again - I don't know how many times I have to spell this out - but I will again - because I am primarily an educator it seems:

Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military. All the bad guys have to do is stop and then all would go well. Or are you one of these folks that believe there are no good and bad guys that it is all a matter of shades of gray?


Amazing, simply amazing :gdgf:

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Game ~ Set ~ Match

Is that all you idiots could find was a hehash of the very same video?

you folks ought to be waterboarded. I'm not kidding. You might as well be the enemy.

I guess the subtle point was lost on you.

Chingu wrote: Americans are not making life in IRaq hard for anyone but the bad guys and the occassional really terribly unfortunate civilian that gets caught in the crossfire. But even then - the cause of the hardship is the fault of the bad guys - not the US military.
Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws


Let's match your words highlighted in bold red with the video's of US soldiers in action which are also highlighted in bold red

Not "a hehash of the very same video" but a reposting of the same video due to you NOT GETTING IT.
Answer my question, do your words match the actions shown in the above video's ?

Oh, I see now, you've neglected in following the entire thread. You think it is more important to show an example of a few bad apples among tonnes of good apples because you like to present American soldiers as bad guys because you have some sort of nasty agenda here. I understand that. But 99.999% of our military over there - as I have said - and as we all know if we are honest - are decent and honorable and wouldn't do that sort of thing.

You see - there are a lot of videos out there showing the good things we are doing and while those good things don't take away from the one or two little bad things - they are part of the reality of what is going on in IRaq and for some reason - you choose to view that one little video representative of a .00001% of the bad as being more important to show than the 99.999% of our good actions. I think that demonstrates my point clearly. Some people don't want to be honest about Iraq. Some people have an agenda.

Quote: You see - there are a lot of videos out there showing the good things we are doing and while those good things don't take away from the one or two little bad things - they are part of the reality of what is going on in IRaq and for some reason - you choose to view that one little video representative of a .00001% of the bad as being more important to show than the 99.999% of our good actions. I think that demonstrates my point clearly. Some people don't want to be honest about Iraq. Some people have an agenda.

These are innocent video compared to 655,000 deaths of Iraqis unreported on youtube! I have a still shot that haunts me in the mosque of Falluja of a fighter killed point blank (GI Joe said he moved when dead)

Ref: Lancet Report

[Chingu]

cool_chick wrote: Chingu wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: The Newb wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Progress vs. Gloom and Doom, ie: Fantasy vs. Reality

what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?

The same thing I'd tell someone who said that there is no crime/poverty in New York after only going to Broadway

so when i was staioned in baghdad for all of 2005 and saw with my own eyes good things happening it is not good enough for you? sure there is bad, there are bombings, and kidnappings, and murder, yet there is good that NO ONE on the left even acknowledge ....

Like what

[url]https://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/portal/page?_pageid=95,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUfB-hL-7k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4wvnT1v
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh6VX1M3SgwERQ [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqp67yfO0cc [/url]
[url]http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/24182.htm [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdwdS72aoA [/url]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVfe8dpodJI
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mxJUADeBdo [/url]
[url]http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=645861 [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGmTWw4cr0w [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tKIBgPSf0g [/url][url]http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/cdare8.html [/url]
[url]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve7Q8OTHPcU [/url]

you didnt see the OP? that is only a small percentage of things but a good represenative of

Do you mind simply telling me what all those links contains? I don't feel like going on for half an hour following all of the links trying to get a little information

Hello Mr. I'm too important to take an extra minute out of my day to learn about a significant issue relevent to the future of mankind. Just take a look at the first link and read a little. You'll find a whole host of infomation right there.

Extra "minute"? Try extra whole day! What "host" of information is there? Surely you spent the day cutting/pasting, maybe YOU can tell us what this "whole host of information" is?

Has nothing to do with "important."

I agree with him. It's stupid to give 2 days worth of links without so little as a friggin summary and expect someone to waste days of their life trying to figure out what the opposing point is....

If ya can't verbalize your point and use a link or two to substantiate said point, then it leads me to believe you don't know what your point is....

Newb even agrees.


Additionally, videoclips and photos are greatly misleading. One isn't going to film anythng contrary. As much as you wish it would, it doesn't give the whole picture.

Two days worth of links? I just cut and pasted them in less than a minute and I just went back through them in under ten. If you bother to click on the first one you will see the website for the BTA (Business Transformation Agency) which is responsible for all of the rebuilding efforts being coodinated in IRaq and in that link - on that sight, there are links to almost everything that is going on - more if you have a government ID to log onto the real meaty stuff.

You don't even need to go through the entire bunch of links - but I put them there so that you could if you want to. You look at the first one - takes about well - the time it takes to click your mouse and read a little - and you will see a whole host of information regaarding the reconstruction of Iraq and how there is a lot of progress being made. And that was put there by me - the link - to demonstrate that the media is failing us - and that the gloom and doom folks are disregarding all the progress being made and focusing only on the violence. That view is biased and misrepresents the reality in Iraq - which, after all -is the entire point of this threat.

It is dishonest to represent only a part of the story and to do so intentionally as the media has done and then as the obstructionist liberal left has continued to do. We see it right here on PCF - folks totally dismissing what is happening in 90% of Iraq only to focus on 10% that is bad. That is disingenuous and that is the point I am making.

And, in my view, if it isn't important enough to you or anyone to take the time to actually understand the subject for which you or anyone else wants to hold to a position or view - then your view isn't worth a grain of salt.

That is a further point I am making.

And you know I love ya - Go BEARS!

[Chingu]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Chingu wrote: Yukimor wrote: Chingu, Chingu, Don't you know that wars have always been going on in the mid-east? You speak like you know their culture. Their bible might not tell them to go and kill their own race, but hey, their religion does.

Wars, my friend, have been going on all over the planet for all of history. What has been does not mandate what is to come. Look to the history of any culture and you will see times in their pasts when they were savages prone to horrible actions much like we see militant Islam performing now. Some not all too lang ago. Others far in the past. You can look back to the Northern European Barbarians, the Japanese right up until WW2 was over, any culture anywhere.

I speak like I know their culture because I know their culture at least as well as anyone on here does. I know it because unlike some, I make a concerted effort to know what the hell I'm talking about before I talk about it. You will notice that on subjects where I am lacking in background, I will say, I am not informed enough about this subject to hold an educated opinion or view.

Their religion stems from their bible - Koran, (Q'ran) Quaran - and their religion does not teach anything any more or less violent that any other religion teaches. It is the interpretation of it that is the problem. Just like the Christians misinterperated the bible ages ago in their Crusades and various other hienous acts or the Jews in their hienous acts. The thing is, cultures and religions evolve over time and people "grow up" and learn to live in some stability or reasonable harmony whereas, the terrorist ilk - have yet to evolve to this point in the world of culture and civilization. And throughout history, what it has taken to force people to come to terms with the modern world they are evolving into - is blood and being defeated by superior cultural ideals. that is what is happening to the terrorists now - or at least what we best should hope is happening.

Chingu wrote: And throughout history, what it has taken to force people to come to terms with the modern world they are evolving into - is blood and being defeated by superior cultural ideals.
Quote: 1767
During the French and Indian War, the English general, Sir Jeffrey Amherst, gives blankets laced with smallpox to Indians loyal to the French. The epidemic decimates the tribes of northeast America.
http://www.fortworthgov.org/health/threats/bio_history1.asp

Quote: Nearly 9,000 Cherokees passed through Southern Illinois between November, 1838, and January, 1839, on their fateful Trail of Tears as the government forced them to abandoned their homes in the Great Smokies to go west to Oklahoma.
http://www.illinoishistory.com/trailoftears.html


Were the Native Americans "defeated by superior cultural ideals" ?

You know, I did a very comprehensive report when I was at University about the Native Americans, their history and how they were treated. It was a fascinating adventure in research. I actually went out to several reservations and spoke with tribal elders and others to get a very real handle on what I was reporting. All that said - I am forced to wonder what your point is?

The Native Americans aren't strapping suicide vests on nor are they blowing inocent folks up with IED's. They evolved a long time ago - to higher superior moral values and culture - long before we Europeans even came to the Continent. So, I'm not at all sure what your point is. Some cultures evolved on their own. Many of the Native American tribal cultures were extremely sophisticated communities long before our arrival having evolved on their own and among themselves in their dealings with other tribes and so forth.

Of course, you could go way back to a time when they were far more savage and beheaded folks for sport - but that's sort of a useless thing to look into and not to the point here.

the point, of course, being, that the modern world has no place for folks that kill innocent people intentionally for political purposes. We have no place for folks who want to assert an evil ideology of tyranny and oppression on everyone else at the point of a sword and will behead innocent civilians in order to terrorize others into complicity. They have not evolved to the level that much of the rest of the world has where we have found ways to live alongside one another without murdering each other.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Chingu wrote: Chingu wrote: rhill230 wrote: Quote: what would you tell an i witness, say a soldier, who claims there is plenty of good happening in iraq?


What would you say if I told you that I just talked to someone who just got back from Iraq not two weeks ago and he said that the country is in total chaos right now?

We can play the "I talked to this guy game" all day.

I would ask him what part of Iraq he served in and I would alos ask him if he saw anything good going on.


but obviously - you haven't talked with anyone who served there reently - because anyoe who had would be able to tell you about some of the progress being made. Isn't difficult to see.

But, I( suppose there are a few who are serving inthe heat of the bad stuff who wouldn't see everything but the violence that they are dealing with.

the point being- you can't dismiss the good stuff.

Etienne wrote: The point being that three years after Bush declared the end of major combat operations in Iraq, we expect good things to be happening. We do not expect Iraq to be on the brink of civil war. We do not expect 3000+ Iraqis to die each month from ethnic violence.

Quote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6141978.stm

The ongoing unrest in Iraq has prompted international calls for Syria and Iran to work with Western powers in seeking an end to sectarian violence there.
The White House has indicated it will consider talking to both countries.

President George W Bush on Monday met members of an expert panel known as the Iraq Study Group, which has been re-evaluating US strategy in Iraq.

UK Prime Minister Tony Blair is also expected to call for Syria and Iran to co-operate in a speech later on Monday.

The UK Foreign Secretary, Margaret Beckett, has already said the two countries should be part of the solution instead of part of the problem.

The fact that the US and UK have considered involving Iran and Syria in helping Iraq stabilize should indicate to you that things are really *BEEP* up in Iraq right now.

The point is, no we didn't expect it and no one is suggesting that things are going swimmingly in IRaq. What we are suggesting is that the American people as well as the people all over the world are being presented with a biased and disingenuous view of the reality in Iraq when all that view describes is the sensational worst and none of the best. It doesn't even come close to showing the reality there. And the vast majority of people don't actually take the time to find out what is really going on - not even when it is thrust right in front of their faces as it has been here.

Now, I challenge anyone here to go back throughout the history of humanity and find me a war where everything went well and no one died and guns were not fired and bombs didn't blow up and innocent pople didn't die. You won't find one. War is nasty terrrible and tragic. but, sometimes, it is a better alternative than what could be. That is the case here and now in Iraq.

Quote: Now, I challenge anyone here to go back throughout the history of humanity and find me a war where everything went well and no one died and guns were not fired and bombs didn't blow up and innocent pople didn't die. You won't find one.
Toledo War
Quote: The Toledo War (1835–1836; also known as the Ohio-Michigan War) was the largely bloodless outcome of a boundary dispute between the U.S. state of Ohio and the adjoining territory of Michigan.
Aroostook War
Quote: The Aroostook War, also called the Pork and Beans War, the Lumberjack's War or the Northeastern Boundary Dispute, was an undeclared, bloodless North American "war" that occurred in the winter of 1838 and early spring of 1839.
McGowan's War
Quote: Yale, British Columbia was the site of a war that was never quite fought
1969: Bloodless coup in Libya
Quote: King Idris of Libya has been deposed in what appears to have been a bloodless coup.
A group of military officers have seized power and declared the country a republic. But the king, who is in Turkey, has dismissed the coup as "unimportant".
According to reports from the capital, Tripoli, troops and tanks converged on the city in the early hours of the morning.
Within two hours they had taken key positions and the royal palace, military and security headquarters were surrounded by 0500.
All communications with the outside world were cut and a curfew was imposed.

War without death
The Pentagon promotes a vision of combat as bloodless and antiseptic ~ November 17, 2002
Quote: Leon Daniel, like others who reported from Vietnam during the 1960s, knew about war and death. So he was puzzled by the lack of corpses at the tip of the Neutral Zone between Saudi Arabia and Iraq on Feb. 25, 1991.

Clearly there had been plenty of killing. The 1st Infantry Division (Mechanized) had smashed through the defensive front line of Saddam Hussein's army the day before, Feb. 24, the opening of the Desert Storm ground war to retake Kuwait. Daniel, representing United Press International, was part of a press pool held back from witnessing the assault on 8,000 Iraqi defenders.

"They wouldn't let us see anything," said Daniel, who had seen about everything as a combat correspondent.

The artillery barrage alone was enough to cause a slaughter. The attack began with a 30-minute bombardment by howitzers and multiple-launch rockets scattering thousands of tiny bomblets, followed by a wave of 8,400 American soldiers riding in 3,000 battle tanks, Bradley fighting vehicles, Humvees, armored personnel carriers and other vehicles.

It wasn't until late in the afternoon of Feb. 25 that the press pool was permitted to see where the attack occurred. There were groups of Iraqi prisoners. About 2,000 had surrendered. But there were no bodies, no stench of feces, no blood stains, no bits of human beings.

"You get a little firefight in Vietnam and the bodies would be stacked up like cordwood," Daniel said. Finally, Daniel found the division public affairs officer, an Army major.

"Where the hell are all the bodies?" Daniel said.

"What bodies?" the officer replied.

~snip~


:roll:

[Suheil]

Chingu


Quote: the point, of course, being, that the modern world has no place for folks that kill innocent people intentionally for political purposes. We have no place for folks who want to assert an evil ideology of tyranny and oppression on everyone else at the point of a sword and will behead innocent civilians in order to terrorize others into complicity. They have not evolved to the level that much of the rest of the world has where we have found ways to live alongside one another without murdering each other.

The twilight zone

600,000 deaths of sanctions
The heavy use of DU, WP and Daises
The rise of cancer to 4 folds in southern Iraq
The raising of Falluja, Talafar, Qaem, and 8 more Iraqi towns
The death of 655,000 Iraqis as a consequence of an illegal war based on spins and lies
The dismantling of Iraq
Factionalism
Civil war

And still taking the highroad?
Flatlander

[Proton]

I still have to see, how conservatives reconcile personal responsibility, and sovereignty, which what the Iraqis could have at any time, ought to have, and would be their problem if they made it work or not.

With nanny reconstructing them, (and failing to do that as well, if not impoverishing the region further)

Actually, probably they don't, they just like their war porn.

[Chingu]

Suheil wrote: Chingu


Chingu wrote: the point, of course, being, that the modern world has no place for folks that kill innocent people intentionally for political purposes. We have no place for folks who want to assert an evil ideology of tyranny and oppression on everyone else at the point of a sword and will behead innocent civilians in order to terrorize others into complicity. They have not evolved to the level that much of the rest of the world has where we have found ways to live alongside one another without murdering each other.

Let's anylize this shall we?

Suheil wrote: 600,000 deaths of sanctions

We know there have been a lot of deaths in Iraq. We do not know the cause of them nor do we have a legitimate number on deaths caused by sanctions. Sanctions were not an American and American alone phenomenon. They were a world phenomenon placed on Iraq to punish Saaddam. I've never been in favor of sanctions of any sort myself. Ibelieve if it comes to that point you probably need a war to settle the dispute. Regardless of my opinion on that though, the sanctions on Iraq could have easily been avoided were Saddam to have complied with the International will - which he refused to do.

Suheil wrote: The heavy use of DU, WP and Daises

Depleted Uranium ordinance is not responsible for any health conditions. Depleted Uranium poses no health risk moreso than anything else we encounter in our daily lives. Depleted Uranium is not a health risk unless of course you like to poweder it and then breath it in - or ingest it for kicks. this has been one of the most disingenuous lies of the anti-war left. It is total BS.

Call me slow - but what are WP? Daisy Cutters were used only on military targets. There was never any bombing done anywhere in Iraaq that was not specifically targeted at enemy. There was very, very little collatoral damage done through our bombing campaigns. That is a fact. So - I'm not sure what point you are trying to make here either.

Suheil wrote: The rise of cancer to 4 folds in southern Iraq

And what do you suppose that (alleged) rise in cancer is due to? It isn't from Depleted Uranium ordinance - I can tell you that much. Maybe it's from Saddam's stockpiles of hazerdous chemicals being destroyed without regard to the environmental hazards they'd pos? Who knows. Who knows if that is evven true? how does it compare with cancer rates elsewhere in the world? This is a non-credible claim anyway. It also has no baring on the issue at hand.

Suheil wrote: The raising of Falluja, Talafar, Qaem, and 8 more Iraqi towns

Again - what's your point. Bad guys got killed. might have been a few civilian casualties. Bad guys are killing civilians - targeting them. We don't do that. We take unprecidented care in avoiding civilian collatoral damage. That's a fact. What's your point?

Suheil wrote: The death of 655,000 Iraqis as a consequence of an illegal war based on spins and lies

That is a non-credible number from a non-credible source. However, we do know a lot of Iraqis have died. many of them enemies. That's not a bad thing when evil enemy murderous thugs are killed in battle is it? Well, I mean - we'd all prefer no one had to die - but were it not for the evil sons-o-b*****s that might stand a chance.

And who's been killing the rest of them? How many of those were killed by Saddams' regime? How many were killed by Al Qeada? How many were killed by Saddam loyalists? how many were killed as a result of sectarian violence?

Tossing out unsubstantiated numbers like that serves no purpose because it means nothing. A lot of people have died in the UNited States in the last three years as well. What does that mean? HAve they died as a result of "An illegal war based on spins and lies?"

What is a legal war as opposed to an illegal one? What jurisdiction covers wars anyway? I'm not sure. What makes this - as opposed o any war ever "illegal?"

And then - I'll bet you can't explain to us all what lie(s) you're referring to. because so far - no one has ben able to put forth an example of one lie used in the process of our getting involved in this fight. Come-on - let us in on the huge secret? What lie(s) were there? We're all dying to know.

Actually - the idea that we were lied to was begun by partisan folks who hate Bush and manufactured a perspective that is entirely false. They fail to understand the simple definition of lie - or they are liars themselves in suggesting it - which, of course, is the truth of the matter.

Suheil wrote: The dismantling of Iraq

What dismantling of Iraq? Oh, you mean the war? What's your point?

Suheil wrote: Factionalism

Factionalism? You mean the Shiite V Sunni fighting going on? The Sectarian violence? You talking about nutjob evil Iraqi's (which, by the way - are a small fraction of the population) killing one another?
What's your point?

Suheil wrote: Civil war

Folks like to use the term civil war becasue it sounds so big and sensational. I suppose you can call it that if you want. I call it sectarian fighting. Evil nutjobs killing folks. Sometimes it's bad guys killing other bad guys. Sometimes it's bad guys killing innocent guys. Sometimes it's good guys killing bad guys

What's your point?.

Suheil wrote: And still taking the highroad?
Flatlander

No - I am taking the reality road where I understand all of these things in context to reality not in some gloom and doom scenario where we were told we were loosing before the first boots hit the ground. I understand how wars work. Sometimes things look pretty bad before they look better. You can't judge a war by body counts or by sensationalized myopic and biased lopsided propoganda. You have to judge them by understanding them in their full context. That is the road I am taking. That is the road I will continue to take. If folks like you were the ones in charge you'd have quit fighting WW2 three days in because people started to die. There were many battles in thatwar and many others where the highest death toll to be suffered by the winning side came in the last days / hours of the battle.

there is this penchant from your side of the argument to dismiss all of reality for one myopic misguided viewpoint.

[Chingu]

Proton wrote: I still have to see, how conservatives reconcile personal responsibility, and sovereignty, which what the Iraqis could have at any time, ought to have, and would be their problem if they made it work or not.

With nanny reconstructing them, (and failing to do that as well, if not impoverishing the region further)

Actually, probably they don't, they just like their war porn.
it is really difficult for someone like me to understand how, after all the discussion that goes on regarding the Iraq fight, the WOT and the state of the world, that views like yours are still around. It is as if 99% of reality is dismissed for the 1% that fits this simplistic and misguided view. It's unreal. It's disturbed.

[The American]

Suheil wrote: Chingu


Quote: the point, of course, being, that the modern world has no place for folks that kill innocent people intentionally for political purposes. We have no place for folks who want to assert an evil ideology of tyranny and oppression on everyone else at the point of a sword and will behead innocent civilians in order to terrorize others into complicity. They have not evolved to the level that much of the rest of the world has where we have found ways to live alongside one another without murdering each other.

The twilight zone

600,000 deaths of sanctions
The heavy use of DU, WP and Daises
The rise of cancer to 4 folds in southern Iraq
The raising of Falluja, Talafar, Qaem, and 8 more Iraqi towns
The death of 655,000 Iraqis as a consequence of an illegal war based on spins and lies
The dismantling of Iraq
Factionalism
Civil war

And still taking the highroad?
Flatlander

Suheil, your conclusions and statements are without merit, unless you provide a reference on how you arrived at these conclusions. You quote them as fact, as I dispute them. Give me reference and I will take it apart. Give me your facts. Or do expect for me to believe them at your say so?

Trig.

[Omega1]

Omega1 wrote: Quote: Well, don't just say it and then not show it. Demonstrate it. Show it.

"The report says worsening security and increasing poverty has caused "unparalleled" population movement. It estimates 100,000 people leave Iraq every month and more than 2 million people, about 8 percent of the population, have fled their homes since the U.S.-led invasion in 2003. The monthly emigration is equivalent to a million Americans going abroad and a loss to the U.S. economy of a city the size of Detroit every four weeks."
http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/COL231696.htm

The [Iraq] nation's health has deteriorated to a level not seen since the 1950s, said Joseph Chamie, former director of the U.N. Population Division and an Iraq specialist. "They were at the forefront", he said, referring to healthcare just before the 1991 Persian Gulf War. "Now they're looking more and more like a country in sub-Saharan Africa."
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-health11nov11,1,7515074.story?coll=la-headlines-world&ctrack=1&cset=true

[Omega1]

Quote: LONDON - Military victory is no longer possible in
Iraq, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said in a television interview broadcast Sunday.

Kissinger presented a bleak vision of Iraq, saying the U.S. government must enter into dialogue with Iraq's regional neighbors — including
Iran — if progress is to be made in the region.

"If you mean by 'military victory' an Iraqi government that can be established and whose writ runs across the whole country, that gets the civil war under control and sectarian violence under control in a time period that the political processes of the democracies will support, I don't believe that is possible," he told the British Broadcasting Corp.

But Kissinger, an architect of the Vietnam war who has advised
President Bush about Iraq, warned against a rapid withdrawal of coalition troops, saying it could destabilize Iraq's neighbors and cause a long-lasting conflict.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/britain_iraq_kissinger_7

[sublime]

Excellent stuff. I've never seen this in major media....scum that they are! How in the world do our soldiers keep morale up so well?

[Proton]

Quote: it is really difficult for someone like me to understand how, after all the discussion that goes on regarding the Iraq fight, the WOT and the state of the world, that views like yours are still around. It is as if 99% of reality is dismissed for the 1% that fits this simplistic and misguided view. It's unreal. It's disturbed.
That's not an answer. That something pretending to call itself the reality. (gives percentances as well!), plus simplistic or misguided, distubed a.k.a useless rhetoric.
Quote: Sanctions were not an American and American alone phenomenon. They were a world phenomenon placed on Iraq to punish Saaddam.
Oh, I am very much in favor of sanctions. Specifically, ones without aid, as this was added later.

The idea is after all, that, by the time Iraq went outside it's border, the word punishes Iraq by showing that it doesn't want to do anything with it. And yes, the idea is that if they starve because of their government, that's their problem which they can solve by arriving to a very simple conclusion.
Quote: Depleted Uranium ordinance is not responsible for any health conditions. Depleted Uranium poses no health risk moreso than anything else we encounter in our daily lives.
Why all those regulations in it's industrial handling then? http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part040/part040-0025.html

Added to that, the depleted Uranium used in projectiles, often contains traces (is contaminated) of Plutonium. That's a heavily chemically toxic element.

Either of those is minimally radioactive as well. They don't kill in distance. They kill by being inhaled dust, staying in the organism, and radiating continuesly the nearby cells. And it takes on cell, to start a cancer.
Quote: There was very, very little collatoral damage done through our bombing campaigns. That is a fact.
When someone drops a bomb, without knowing exactly what he is going to hit. It's the equivelant of someone dropping explosives in a populated area. There is no nice term legal term as "collateral damage", but there is second degree murder.
Quote: It isn't from Depleted Uranium ordinance - I can tell you that much.
I don't think you can. I understand that you are in the party all creationists seem to pop up, but I actually know my science.
Quote: It also has no baring on the issue at hand.
Some call those dirty bombs.
Quote: Quote: The raising of Falluja, Talafar, Qaem, and 8 more Iraqi towns Again - what's your point. Bad guys got killed. might have been a few civilian casualties
When all male population was blocked from evacuating the city, I very much doubt that. http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,138376,00.html

(I have an evil humor in selecting my media sources as well eh?)
Quote: That is a non-credible number from a non-credible source. However, we do know a lot of Iraqis have died. many of them enemies. That's not a bad thing when evil enemy murderous thugs are killed in battle is it? Well, I mean - we'd all prefer no one had to die - but were it not for the evil sons-o-b*****s that might stand a chance.

And who's been killing the rest of them? How many of those were killed by Saddams' regime? How many were killed by Al Qeada? How many were killed by Saddam loyalists? how many were killed as a result of sectarian violence?

Tossing out unsubstantiated numbers like that serves no purpose because it means nothing. A lot of people have died in the UNited States in the last three years as well. What does that mean? HAve they died as a result of "An illegal war based on spins and lies?"

What is a legal war as opposed to an illegal one? What jurisdiction covers wars anyway? I'm not sure. What makes this - as opposed o any war ever "illegal?"

And then - I'll bet you can't explain to us all what lie(s) you're referring to. because so far - no one has ben able to put forth an example of one lie used in the process of our getting involved in this fight. Come-on - let us in on the huge secret? What lie(s) were there? We're all dying to know.

Actually - the idea that we were lied to was begun by partisan folks who hate Bush and manufactured a perspective that is entirely false. They fail to understand the simple definition of lie - or they are liars themselves in suggesting it - which, of course, is the truth of the matter.
All this, is a lot of bubbling, which does not address the small detail, that a lot of people are dead, from a war, even by collateral alone, which before they weren't. There security situation was better even.

And that happened after an invasion. A first attack. Not a response to say, Saddam re violating somebody's borders, but by Iraq just sitting there. The rock bottom of war morality.
Quote: What dismantling of Iraq? Oh, you mean the war? What's your point?
Water and electrical power plants are considered targets...
Quote: No - I am taking the reality road where I understand all of these things in context to reality not in some gloom and doom scenario where we were told we were loosing before the first boots hit the ground. I understand how wars work.
Or, you take the road where you pretend, and write to yourself that you take the "reality" road.

Huh, the entire Europe (and that includes the majority of the UK), that's half the western world. Canada, Australia as well, and half the US, which strangely includes the universities in terms of quality. Think that someone is so far out of touch with reality, it is damaging the whole structure, there, and ultimatly (by doing damage there), here. As far as war understanding goes, they are still there. Tons of generals (does this means that the pentagon has bad generals? lol) have said that much different tactics (like tons of troops) were needed, and have in a masterful diplomatic stroke managed to convert this:


Quote: A rare occurrence of a 5-country multinational fleet, during Operation Enduring Freedom in the Oman Sea.
Into being a bit of joke really.

[The American]

Quote: [quote="Proton"]

Why all those regulations in it's industrial handling then? http://www.nrc.gov/reading-rm/doc-collections/cfr/part040/part040-0025.html

Added to that, the depleted Uranium used in projectiles, often contains traces (is contaminated) of Plutonium. That's a heavily chemically toxic element.

Either of those is minimally radioactive as well. They don't kill in distance. They kill by being inhaled dust, staying in the organism, and radiating continuesly the nearby cells. And it takes on cell, to start a cancer.

No doubt you have done extensive studies on the subject. However, opinion does not conclude a fact. You failed in reading the disclaimer from your reference.

Quote: NRC cannot guarantee the authenticity of documents or the validity of information obtained at these non-NRC Web sites. These links do not imply any official endorsement of, or responsibility for, the opinions, data, or products available at these locations.

You showed us yours, now let me introduce you to mine.

Quote:

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2002&m=October&x=20021007184349vsilverman@pd.state.gov0.9141504

Depleted Uranium
Studies find no evidence linking DU to serious health risks

Following is a Department of State fact sheet on the health effects of depleted uranium, based on U.S., U.N. and other investigative sources:

(begin fact sheet)

Fact Sheet on Depleted Uranium

World Health Organization and other scientific research studies indicate that exposure to trace amounts of depleted uranium poses no serious health risks.

Scientific evidence does not indicate that depleted uranium has affected the health of Gulf War veterans. Nor has there been any scientific research indicating depleted uranium causes birth defects.

There have been no independent studies related to depleted uranium inside Iraq. Since 1991, Iraq has refused to allow health inspectors to assess the alleged impact of depleted uranium.

Iraqi military use of chemical and nerve agents in the 1980s and 1990s is a likely cause of birth defects among Iraqi children.

Uranium is a naturally occurring chemical element that is mildly radioactive. Humans and animals have always ingested particles of this naturally occurring substance from the air, water and soil. Only when uranium is enriched to produce material for nuclear reactors is the radiation level hazardous, requiring very careful handling and storage. Depleted uranium is roughly 200,000 times less radioactive than enriched uranium.

Natural and depleted uranium have not been linked to any health risks. There have been 16 epidemiological studies of some 30,000 workers in U.S. radiation industries. Some of these workers, particularly in the early days of the industry, had very significant exposures to uranium particles. According to scientists in the field, there have been no recorded cases of illness among these workers as a result of their exposure to uranium.

There is much more on the subject. A good read for a person of your studies. I am truly sorry. Chingu is correct on his statement.

:wink:

**Thumbs up Chingu**

Trig.

**Link repair**

[Suheil]

The American wrote: Suheil wrote: Chingu


Quote: the point, of course, being, that the modern world has no place for folks that kill innocent people intentionally for political purposes. We have no place for folks who want to assert an evil ideology of tyranny and oppression on everyone else at the point of a sword and will behead innocent civilians in order to terrorize others into complicity. They have not evolved to the level that much of the rest of the world has where we have found ways to live alongside one another without murdering each other.

The twilight zone

600,000 deaths of sanctions
The heavy use of DU, WP and Daises
The rise of cancer to 4 folds in southern Iraq
The raising of Falluja, Talafar, Qaem, and 8 more Iraqi towns
The death of 655,000 Iraqis as a consequence of an illegal war based on spins and lies
The dismantling of Iraq
Factionalism
Civil war

And still taking the highroad?
Flatlander

Suheil, your conclusions and statements are without merit, unless you provide a reference on how you arrived at these conclusions. You quote them as fact, as I dispute them. Give me reference and I will take it apart. Give me your facts. Or do expect for me to believe them at your say so?

Trig.

Quote: Suheil, your conclusions and statements are without merit, unless you provide a reference on how you arrived at these conclusions. You quote them as fact, as I dispute them. Give me reference and I will take it apart. Give me your facts. Or do expect for me to believe them at your say so?

Trig.

The twilight zone

600,000 deaths of sanctions (read UN report on sanctions)
The heavy use of DU, WP and Daises (read, see and weep

http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/extremedeformities.html

P.S. warning not fit for humans, only for those who think "s**t happens"!

http://www.robert-fisk.com/depleted_uranium_links.htm

The rise of cancer to 4 folds in southern Iraq
The raising of Falluja, Talafar, Qaem, and 8 more Iraqi towns

The death of 655,000 Iraqis as a consequence of an illegal war based on spins and lies

The dismantling of Iraq (the Lancet Report)

Factionalism (read about democracy farce)
Civil war (read major news networks)

And still taking the highroad?
Flatlander

[The American]

Suheil wrote: The American wrote: Suheil wrote: Chingu


Quote: the point, of course, being, that the modern world has no place for folks that kill innocent people intentionally for political purposes. We have no place for folks who want to assert an evil ideology of tyranny and oppression on everyone else at the point of a sword and will behead innocent civilians in order to terrorize others into complicity. They have not evolved to the level that much of the rest of the world has where we have found ways to live alongside one another without murdering each other.

The twilight zone

600,000 deaths of sanctions
The heavy use of DU, WP and Daises
The rise of cancer to 4 folds in southern Iraq
The raising of Falluja, Talafar, Qaem, and 8 more Iraqi towns
The death of 655,000 Iraqis as a consequence of an illegal war based on spins and lies
The dismantling of Iraq
Factionalism
Civil war

And still taking the highroad?
Flatlander

Suheil, your conclusions and statements are without merit, unless you provide a reference on how you arrived at these conclusions. You quote them as fact, as I dispute them. Give me reference and I will take it apart. Give me your facts. Or do expect for me to believe them at your say so?

Trig.

Quote: Suheil, your conclusions and statements are without merit, unless you provide a reference on how you arrived at these conclusions. You quote them as fact, as I dispute them. Give me reference and I will take it apart. Give me your facts. Or do expect for me to believe them at your say so?

Trig.

The twilight zone

600,000 deaths of sanctions (read UN report on sanctions)
The heavy use of DU, WP and Daises (read, see and weep

http://www.xs4all.nl/~stgvisie/VISIE/extremedeformities.html

P.S. warning not fit for humans, only for those who think "s**t happens"!

http://www.robert-fisk.com/depleted_uranium_links.htm

The rise of cancer to 4 folds in southern Iraq
The raising of Falluja, Talafar, Qaem, and 8 more Iraqi towns

The death of 655,000 Iraqis as a consequence of an illegal war based on spins and lies

The dismantling of Iraq (the Lancet Report)

Factionalism (read about democracy farce)
Civil war (read major news networks)

And still taking the highroad?
Flatlander

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/display.html?p=washfile-english&y=2002&m=October&x=20021007184349vsilverman@pd.state.gov0.9141504

Debunked. See previous post above.

Sanctions were put on Iraq by the world community. One could hardly blame America alone for it. However, there was a Oil for food program in place to ease humanitarian problems. What happened with that? Dismantling of Iraq came when Saddam Hussein was removed from power. Hindsight. If democracy was a farce, the Iraqis would not have a Constitution in place.

[Dookiestix]

Chingu wrote: Dookiestix wrote: It just doesn't matter how much cherry picking one wishes to do in some blind attempt to justify this war. The violence only escalates as the dynamic continues to change, and people are just getting slaughtered in the streets of Baghdad.

This shouldn't be about good news/bad news anymore.

This should be about the news that's necessary to get us the hell out.

I'm tired of excuses from those who continue to support this war.

Lumina wrote: One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....
What infrastructure? The one the insurgency keeps blowing up? What free press? The one where papers are getting shut down because the editors are getting murdered by the insurgency?

This detachment from reality only excacerbates the problem.

I think what you are tired of, in all honesty, is the hardship of having to deal with a serious situation.

Getting the hell out, as you put it accomplishes what?

I've already educated you as to what that would accomplish but you seem unconcerned that we would face a far more dangerous world - a much bigger and more brutal fight - and far more death and meyhem if we fail here. Why does that not concern you? Is it because you are only interested in that one more day of peace in your own little world where you can goout to dinner and not get blown up and not have to think about serious global matters? Is one more sip of Chablis worth it?
One more ship of Chablis? WTF is wrong with you? :roll:

You've offered ZERO education in every regard. Those who felt as though they were "educating" others who were staunchly against this war from day and one and who called everything that's happening today have no place to even suggest that they are educators.

Bullsh!tters is a much more appropriate description. And you do that well.

[The American]

Dookiestix wrote: Chingu wrote: Dookiestix wrote: It just doesn't matter how much cherry picking one wishes to do in some blind attempt to justify this war. The violence only escalates as the dynamic continues to change, and people are just getting slaughtered in the streets of Baghdad.

This shouldn't be about good news/bad news anymore.

This should be about the news that's necessary to get us the hell out.

I'm tired of excuses from those who continue to support this war.

Lumina wrote: One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....
What infrastructure? The one the insurgency keeps blowing up? What free press? The one where papers are getting shut down because the editors are getting murdered by the insurgency?

This detachment from reality only excacerbates the problem.

I think what you are tired of, in all honesty, is the hardship of having to deal with a serious situation.

Getting the hell out, as you put it accomplishes what?

I've already educated you as to what that would accomplish but you seem unconcerned that we would face a far more dangerous world - a much bigger and more brutal fight - and far more death and meyhem if we fail here. Why does that not concern you? Is it because you are only interested in that one more day of peace in your own little world where you can goout to dinner and not get blown up and not have to think about serious global matters? Is one more sip of Chablis worth it?
One more ship of Chablis? WTF is wrong with you? :roll:

You've offered ZERO education in every regard. Those who felt as though they were "educating" others who were staunchly against this war from day and one and who called everything that's happening today have no place to even suggest that they are educators.

Bullsh!tters is a much more appropriate description. And you do that well.

I wonder.............

Do you think life would be just a piece of cake, if we packed our bags and came home? Would that solve or create more problems? Or would you even worry about it? Sure you would hear in the weeks to come of countless Iraqis being slaughtered as animals, but it would not matter? As our brave men would be home, and you would be eating cake and Chablis until it came your time to pay for your sinful way of life? (Catagorized by the extreme Radical Religious view holder?)

Maybe just don't think about it. Because your children and or grandchildren will be dealing with it on a more extreme level. Have you even thought of the consequences of returning without finishing the job? Someone will have to do it. Do we deal now, or wait until it gets worse? Put it off for the next generation.

:wink:

[Dookiestix]

The American wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Chingu wrote: Dookiestix wrote: It just doesn't matter how much cherry picking one wishes to do in some blind attempt to justify this war. The violence only escalates as the dynamic continues to change, and people are just getting slaughtered in the streets of Baghdad.

This shouldn't be about good news/bad news anymore.

This should be about the news that's necessary to get us the hell out.

I'm tired of excuses from those who continue to support this war.

Lumina wrote: One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....
What infrastructure? The one the insurgency keeps blowing up? What free press? The one where papers are getting shut down because the editors are getting murdered by the insurgency?

This detachment from reality only excacerbates the problem.

I think what you are tired of, in all honesty, is the hardship of having to deal with a serious situation.

Getting the hell out, as you put it accomplishes what?

I've already educated you as to what that would accomplish but you seem unconcerned that we would face a far more dangerous world - a much bigger and more brutal fight - and far more death and meyhem if we fail here. Why does that not concern you? Is it because you are only interested in that one more day of peace in your own little world where you can goout to dinner and not get blown up and not have to think about serious global matters? Is one more sip of Chablis worth it?
One more ship of Chablis? WTF is wrong with you? :roll:

You've offered ZERO education in every regard. Those who felt as though they were "educating" others who were staunchly against this war from day and one and who called everything that's happening today have no place to even suggest that they are educators.

Bullsh!tters is a much more appropriate description. And you do that well.

I wonder.............

Do you think life would be just a piece of cake, if we packed our bags and came home? Would that solve or create more problems? Or would you even worry about it? Sure you would hear in the weeks to come of countless Iraqis being slaughtered as animals, but it would not matter? As our brave men would be home, and you would be eating cake and Chablis until it came your time to pay for your sinful way of life? (Catagorized by the extreme Radical Religious view holder?)

Maybe just don't think about it. Because your children and or grandchildren will be dealing with it on a more extreme level. Have you even thought of the consequences of returning without finishing the job? Someone will have to do it. Do we deal now, or wait until it gets worse? Put it off for the next generation.

:wink:
First of all, I can't stand Chablis. Perhaps in your next sad attempt at making a point about elitism, try using a better, more popular wine. Perhaps a Pinot Noir, or maybe even a Merlot.

Secondly, your black and white approach solves nothing. It's the yptical, rightwing knee-jerk reaction to those who are against this war and want our troops out as soon as humanly possible. The region is already destabilized no thanx to Bush, and the slaughter has only gotten worse while we are still there. In other words, we are ineffective in stopping this bloodshed. Republicans are leaving close to half a trillion dollars in appropriations bills and other messes for Democrats to deal with, so I would suspect that the GOP know something about leaving their problems for others to have to deal with, whether it be our children, our grandchildren, or the incoming Democratic majority. Hearing you lecture about this is quite humorous.

Oh, I'm also not a big fan of "cake." But you go right ahead and keep clinging to your worthless labels if it makes you feel better.

[The American]

Dookiestix wrote: The American wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Chingu wrote: Dookiestix wrote: It just doesn't matter how much cherry picking one wishes to do in some blind attempt to justify this war. The violence only escalates as the dynamic continues to change, and people are just getting slaughtered in the streets of Baghdad.

This shouldn't be about good news/bad news anymore.

This should be about the news that's necessary to get us the hell out.

I'm tired of excuses from those who continue to support this war.

Lumina wrote: One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....
What infrastructure? The one the insurgency keeps blowing up? What free press? The one where papers are getting shut down because the editors are getting murdered by the insurgency?

This detachment from reality only excacerbates the problem.

I think what you are tired of, in all honesty, is the hardship of having to deal with a serious situation.

Getting the hell out, as you put it accomplishes what?

I've already educated you as to what that would accomplish but you seem unconcerned that we would face a far more dangerous world - a much bigger and more brutal fight - and far more death and meyhem if we fail here. Why does that not concern you? Is it because you are only interested in that one more day of peace in your own little world where you can goout to dinner and not get blown up and not have to think about serious global matters? Is one more sip of Chablis worth it?
One more ship of Chablis? WTF is wrong with you? :roll:

You've offered ZERO education in every regard. Those who felt as though they were "educating" others who were staunchly against this war from day and one and who called everything that's happening today have no place to even suggest that they are educators.

Bullsh!tters is a much more appropriate description. And you do that well.

I wonder.............

Do you think life would be just a piece of cake, if we packed our bags and came home? Would that solve or create more problems? Or would you even worry about it? Sure you would hear in the weeks to come of countless Iraqis being slaughtered as animals, but it would not matter? As our brave men would be home, and you would be eating cake and Chablis until it came your time to pay for your sinful way of life? (Catagorized by the extreme Radical Religious view holder?)

Maybe just don't think about it. Because your children and or grandchildren will be dealing with it on a more extreme level. Have you even thought of the consequences of returning without finishing the job? Someone will have to do it. Do we deal now, or wait until it gets worse? Put it off for the next generation.

:wink:
First of all, I can't stand Chablis. Perhaps in your next sad attempt at making a point about elitism, try using a better, more popular wine. Perhaps a Pinot Noir, or maybe even a Merlot.

Secondly, your black and white approach solves nothing. It's the yptical, rightwing knee-jerk reaction to those who are against this war and want our troops out as soon as humanly possible. The region is already destabilized no thanx to Bush, and the slaughter has only gotten worse while we are still there. In other words, we are ineffective in stopping this bloodshed. Republicans are leaving close to half a trillion dollars in appropriations bills and other messes for Democrats to deal with, so I would suspect that the GOP know something about leaving their problems for others to have to deal with, whether it be our children, our grandchildren, or the incoming Democratic majority. Hearing you lecture about this is quite humorous.

Oh, I'm also not a big fan of "cake." But you go right ahead and keep clinging to your worthless labels if it makes you feel better.

Black and white huh? Would you possibly mean right and wrong? Actually, straight to the point, that is my view. Color is not a priority. However, since color is a point for you, would you like to elaborate on the gray? What would be your reaction over the consequences of pulling out? Would you shoulder the responsibility of that decision, or would you blame others for your decision not to finish the job?