Political Crossfire Forums

Chingu · Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 9617 Location: Illinois

There are those who want to focus only on the terrible things going on in Iraq. we know about those because the media focuses on them and the complicit socialist left reinforces the view that nothing is going right. Well, I'm here to tell you that there are a lot of things going right despite the fact that there are also things going wrong.

the reality is that the vast majority of Iraqi's are peace loving people who simply want to live their lives without the fear of getting burned to death or shot in the head or bombed. Our mission, in supporting the freely elected Iraqi government, is to assist the Iraqi government and that vast majority of people in succeeding to accomplish that goal. That's not an easy task obviously.

We face enemies of peace and stability in Iraq. these enemies come in many forms and are driven by many motivations. But there is one thing that is common among them all. These enemies are evil and terrible people who need to be stopped.

So, to contrast the never ending and biased onslaught of negativity and sensationalized news and rhetoric from the left - I am posting just a peek at some of the positive things going on. there are many more things which I could post and probably will -but alas, I have to cook yet another Thanksgiving meal for those in my familiy - myself included - who were unable to take part in the traditional one.

https://www.rebuilding-iraq.net/portal/page?_pageid=95,1&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsUfB-hL-7khttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4wvnT1vERQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hh6VX1M3Sgw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Aqp67yfO0cc
http://www.state.gov/r/pa/ei/rls/24182.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghdwdS72aoA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EVfe8dpodJI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mxJUADeBdo
http://abcnews.go.com/International/IraqCoverage/story?id=645861
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGmTWw4cr0w
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tKIBgPSf0g
http://newdelhi.usembassy.gov/cdare8.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ve7Q8OTHPcU

And I could just keep this list going and going.

You see how some with media being complicit, fail to show you the real story. The focus only on the negative. There is reality, and then there is the socialist left's alternate reality where everything s*cks and everything is bad and nothing will ever work. One is forced to wonder what exactly it is that the far left wants? Do they want the world to fall apart into Chaos? That seems the case.

One poster here decided that the following was more important to show you than what I have posted. I'm lending balance. It's easy to pick out a few bad apples doing sorry stuff but it is terrible to portray it as typical. It isn't.

Our other poster posted this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9A_vxIOB-I&eurl=

"Winning hearts and minds"

See Sami run
See America run
Out of tune with the Universe
Disgusting!

Well, it is disgusting. But, rational people can see how the stress and mental fatigue of a war torn place like that can effect some people. These folks are not a good representation of what we do. The ones I've depicted in my links are. And, I would suggest that there are 1,000 to 1 good v bad apples in our military.

ZeroTolerance · Joined: 07 Oct 2006 Posts: 274 Location: Louisville, KY

Those are positive stories about Iraq, indeed.

There were also some positive stories that came out of Vietnam, too.

The fact of the matter is: democracy is more possible the more it is tried. However, sectarian clashes of ideology/religion within a region makes this even less possible.

We shouldn't be in Iraq. We are in Iraq.

Lumina · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 15051

One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

cap'n queasy · Joined: 15 May 2004 Posts: 34968

Quote: One is forced to wonder what exactly it is that the far left wants? Do they want the world to fall apart into Chaos? That seems the case.

If that happened then they think they could step in, so it is easy to see the motivation there.

Dookiestix · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject:

It just doesn't matter how much cherry picking one wishes to do in some blind attempt to justify this war. The violence only escalates as the dynamic continues to change, and people are just getting slaughtered in the streets of Baghdad.

This shouldn't be about good news/bad news anymore.

This should be about the news that's necessary to get us the hell out.

I'm tired of excuses from those who continue to support this war.

Lumina wrote: One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....
What infrastructure? The one the insurgency keeps blowing up? What free press? The one where papers are getting shut down because the editors are getting murdered by the insurgency?

This detachment from reality only excacerbates the problem.

Chingu · Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 9617 Location: Illinois

ZeroTolerance wrote: Those are positive stories about Iraq, indeed.

There were also some positive stories that came out of Vietnam, too.

The fact of the matter is: democracy is more possible the more it is tried. However, sectarian clashes of ideology/religion within a region makes this even less possible.

We shouldn't be in Iraq. We are in Iraq.

Actually, there were far fewer real positives in Vietnam and we didn't really see them post say - 1968 because the media then - as now - were dead set on portraying Vietnam as they wanted it portrayed rather than what it really was.

We didn't loose Vietnam militarily. We lost it / withdrew because we lacked the will to win. Social left progressives - the anti-war communists and the peacenicks pressured us to withdraw. Walter Coronkite and his minions of biased media anchors and reporters portrayed Vietnam innaccurately to the American people thus reinforcing a negative view across society.

The media portrayed the Tet offensive as a victory for the Communist north when in fact it was an overwhelming voctory for the South and US.

But the two wars share very little else in common. Vietnam, as part of the Truman Doctrine. The significance of that battle was big, and our withdrawl damaged the United States for a long time afterward, but in it's loss, we were not to suffer immediate and direct threat as we would were we to withdraw and loose in Iraq. Because, if we withdraw and loose in IRaq, the enemies of freedom and stability win. And we know for a fact that they will rebuild their own power and continue to come after us. There is no detante involved here - no nuclear MAD policy that keeps the other side from destabilizing the world, the region and coming after us. So, there is little to fall back on should we loose. What it would mandate is a far more pervasive and all encompassing future conflict that would make what is happening today seem like a skirmish.

Richard Owl Mirror · Joined: 28 May 2006 Posts: 9002

US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

Chingu · Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 9617 Location: Illinois

Dookiestix wrote: It just doesn't matter how much cherry picking one wishes to do in some blind attempt to justify this war. The violence only escalates as the dynamic continues to change, and people are just getting slaughtered in the streets of Baghdad.

This shouldn't be about good news/bad news anymore.

This should be about the news that's necessary to get us the hell out.

I'm tired of excuses from those who continue to support this war.

Lumina wrote: One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....
What infrastructure? The one the insurgency keeps blowing up? What free press? The one where papers are getting shut down because the editors are getting murdered by the insurgency?

This detachment from reality only excacerbates the problem.

I think what you are tired of, in all honesty, is the hardship of having to deal with a serious situation.

Getting the hell out, as you put it accomplishes what?

I've already educated you as to what that would accomplish but you seem unconcerned that we would face a far more dangerous world - a much bigger and more brutal fight - and far more death and meyhem if we fail here. Why does that not concern you? Is it because you are only interested in that one more day of peace in your own little world where you can goout to dinner and not get blown up and not have to think about serious global matters? Is one more sip of Chablis worth it?

Lumina · Joined: 16 Mar 2006 Posts: 15051

Dookiestix wrote: It just doesn't matter how much cherry picking one wishes to do in some blind attempt to justify this war. The violence only escalates as the dynamic continues to change, and people are just getting slaughtered in the streets of Baghdad.

This shouldn't be about good news/bad news anymore.

This should be about the news that's necessary to get us the hell out.

I'm tired of excuses from those who continue to support this war.

Lumina wrote: One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....
What infrastructure? The one the insurgency keeps blowing up? What free press? The one where papers are getting shut down because the editors are getting murdered by the insurgency?

This detachment from reality only excacerbates the problem.

Exqueeze me, but are you saying that I am detached from reality?

Chingu · Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 9617 Location: Illinois

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

Dookiestix · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject:

Chingu wrote: One is forced to wonder what exactly it is that the far left wants?
One should understand that the "far" left never WANTED to be in Iraq. NEVER.

This is a reality that the war mongering 101st Keyboard Brigade fail to understand. The "far" left actually knew something about the cause and effect of an invasion into Iraq.

I can't help it if the "far" right is too deaf to listen to those who called it. And they continue to not listen by posting these "good news" threads, which do nothing in coming up with concrete solutions in getting us the hell out of Iraq.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/24/AR2006112401104.html

Quote: There will be no victory or defeat for the United States in Iraq. These terms do not reflect the reality of what is going to happen there. The future of Iraq was always going to be determined by the Iraqis -- not the Americans.

Iraq is not a prize to be won or lost. It is part of the ongoing global struggle against instability, brutality, intolerance, extremism and terrorism. There will be no military victory or military solution for Iraq. Former secretary of state Henry Kissinger made this point last weekend.

The time for more U.S. troops in Iraq has passed. We do not have more troops to send and, even if we did, they would not bring a resolution to Iraq. Militaries are built to fight and win wars, not bind together failing nations. We are once again learning a very hard lesson in foreign affairs: America cannot impose a democracy on any nation -- regardless of our noble purpose.

We have misunderstood, misread, misplanned and mismanaged our honorable intentions in Iraq with an arrogant self-delusion reminiscent of Vietnam. Honorable intentions are not policies and plans. Iraq belongs to the 25 million Iraqis who live there. They will decide their fate and form of government.

It may take many years before there is a cohesive political center in Iraq. America's options on this point have always been limited. There will be a new center of gravity in the Middle East that will include Iraq. That process began over the past few days with the Syrians and Iraqis restoring diplomatic relations after 20 years of having no formal communication. The next installment would be this weekend's unprecedented meeting in Iran of the presidents of Iran, Syria and Iraq, if it takes place.

What does this tell us? It tells us that regional powers will fill regional vacuums, and they will move to work in their own self-interest -- without the United States. This is the most encouraging set of actions for the Middle East in years. The Middle East is more combustible today than ever before, and until we are able to lead a renewal of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, mindless destruction and slaughter will continue in Lebanon, Israel and across the Middle East.

We are a long way from a sustained peaceful resolution to the anarchy in Iraq. But this latest set of events is moving the Middle East in the only direction it can go with any hope of lasting progress and peace. The movement will be imperfect, stuttering and difficult.

America finds itself in a dangerous and isolated position in the world. We are perceived as a nation at war with Muslims. Unfortunately, that perception is gaining credibility in the Muslim world and for many years will complicate America's global credibility, purpose and leadership. This debilitating and dangerous perception must be reversed as the world seeks a new geopolitical, trade and economic center that will accommodate the interests of billions of people over the next 25 years. The world will continue to require realistic, clear-headed American leadership -- not an American divine mission.

The United States must begin planning for a phased troop withdrawal from Iraq. The cost of combat in Iraq in terms of American lives, dollars and world standing has been devastating. We've already spent more than $300 billion there to prosecute an almost four-year-old war and are still spending $8 billion per month. The United States has spent more than $500 billion on our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And our effort in Afghanistan continues to deteriorate, partly because we took our focus off the real terrorist threat, which was there, and not in Iraq.

We are destroying our force structure, which took 30 years to build. We've been funding this war dishonestly, mainly through supplemental appropriations, which minimizes responsible congressional oversight and allows the administration to duck tough questions in defending its policies. Congress has abdicated its oversight responsibility in the past four years.

It is not too late. The United States can still extricate itself honorably from an impending disaster in Iraq. The Baker-Hamilton commission gives the president a new opportunity to form a bipartisan consensus to get out of Iraq. If the president fails to build a bipartisan foundation for an exit strategy, America will pay a high price for this blunder -- one that we will have difficulty recovering from in the years ahead.

To squander this moment would be to squander future possibilities for the Middle East and the world. That is what is at stake over the next few months.

The writer is a Republican senator from Nebraska.
So NOW Chuck Hagel suggests that Congress has been abdicating it's oversight responsibility, and at the same time Bush is attempting to close down the last oversight apparatus in regards to Iraq. WTF? This is disgusting. What the fvck are these bastards hiding? Cheney is now desperately pleading with the Saudis to help them in cleaning up their mess.

The grounds for impeachment in regards to both Bush and Cheney continue to grow. Their endless lies have resulted in the death of thousands, and our stature in the world has been so thoroughly demolished as to threaten our very economic existence as the global economy continues to expand.

callous · Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 15389 Location: In The Open

The death toll is the only thing pertinent in Iraq, as is true in every location on the face of the earth. A high death toll from violence = downward spiraling success.

Success in Iraq vs doom and gloom = Fantasy vs reality.

beachbum bob · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:45 pm Post subject:

Lumina wrote: One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

free press flourishes??? hmm..tell that to the iraqi journalists

Chingu · Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 9617 Location: Illinois

Dookiestix wrote: Chingu wrote: One is forced to wonder what exactly it is that the far left wants?
One should understand that the "far" left never WANTED to be in Iraq. NEVER.

This is a reality that the war mongering 101st Keyboard Brigade fail to understand. The "far" left actually knew something about the cause and effect of an invasion into Iraq.

I can't help it if the "far" right is too deaf to listen to those who called it. And they continue to not listen by posting these "good news" threads, which do nothing in coming up with concrete solutions in getting us the hell out of Iraq.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/24/AR2006112401104.html

Quote: There will be no victory or defeat for the United States in Iraq. These terms do not reflect the reality of what is going to happen there. The future of Iraq was always going to be determined by the Iraqis -- not the Americans.

Iraq is not a prize to be won or lost. It is part of the ongoing global struggle against instability, brutality, intolerance, extremism and terrorism. There will be no military victory or military solution for Iraq. Former secretary of state Henry Kissinger made this point last weekend.

The time for more U.S. troops in Iraq has passed. We do not have more troops to send and, even if we did, they would not bring a resolution to Iraq. Militaries are built to fight and win wars, not bind together failing nations. We are once again learning a very hard lesson in foreign affairs: America cannot impose a democracy on any nation -- regardless of our noble purpose.

We have misunderstood, misread, misplanned and mismanaged our honorable intentions in Iraq with an arrogant self-delusion reminiscent of Vietnam. Honorable intentions are not policies and plans. Iraq belongs to the 25 million Iraqis who live there. They will decide their fate and form of government.

It may take many years before there is a cohesive political center in Iraq. America's options on this point have always been limited. There will be a new center of gravity in the Middle East that will include Iraq. That process began over the past few days with the Syrians and Iraqis restoring diplomatic relations after 20 years of having no formal communication. The next installment would be this weekend's unprecedented meeting in Iran of the presidents of Iran, Syria and Iraq, if it takes place.

What does this tell us? It tells us that regional powers will fill regional vacuums, and they will move to work in their own self-interest -- without the United States. This is the most encouraging set of actions for the Middle East in years. The Middle East is more combustible today than ever before, and until we are able to lead a renewal of the Israeli-Palestinian peace process, mindless destruction and slaughter will continue in Lebanon, Israel and across the Middle East.

We are a long way from a sustained peaceful resolution to the anarchy in Iraq. But this latest set of events is moving the Middle East in the only direction it can go with any hope of lasting progress and peace. The movement will be imperfect, stuttering and difficult.

America finds itself in a dangerous and isolated position in the world. We are perceived as a nation at war with Muslims. Unfortunately, that perception is gaining credibility in the Muslim world and for many years will complicate America's global credibility, purpose and leadership. This debilitating and dangerous perception must be reversed as the world seeks a new geopolitical, trade and economic center that will accommodate the interests of billions of people over the next 25 years. The world will continue to require realistic, clear-headed American leadership -- not an American divine mission.

The United States must begin planning for a phased troop withdrawal from Iraq. The cost of combat in Iraq in terms of American lives, dollars and world standing has been devastating. We've already spent more than $300 billion there to prosecute an almost four-year-old war and are still spending $8 billion per month. The United States has spent more than $500 billion on our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. And our effort in Afghanistan continues to deteriorate, partly because we took our focus off the real terrorist threat, which was there, and not in Iraq.

We are destroying our force structure, which took 30 years to build. We've been funding this war dishonestly, mainly through supplemental appropriations, which minimizes responsible congressional oversight and allows the administration to duck tough questions in defending its policies. Congress has abdicated its oversight responsibility in the past four years.

It is not too late. The United States can still extricate itself honorably from an impending disaster in Iraq. The Baker-Hamilton commission gives the president a new opportunity to form a bipartisan consensus to get out of Iraq. If the president fails to build a bipartisan foundation for an exit strategy, America will pay a high price for this blunder -- one that we will have difficulty recovering from in the years ahead.

To squander this moment would be to squander future possibilities for the Middle East and the world. That is what is at stake over the next few months.

The writer is a Republican senator from Nebraska.
So NOW Chuck Hagel suggests that Congress has been abdicating it's oversight responsibility, and at the same time Bush is attempting to close down the last oversight apparatus in regards to Iraq. WTF? This is disgusting. What the fvck are these bastards hiding? Cheney is now desperately pleading with the Saudis to help them in cleaning up their mess.

The grounds for impeachment in regards to both Bush and Cheney continue to grow. Their endless lies have resulted in the death of thousands, and our stature in the world has been so thoroughly demolished as to threaten our very economic existence as the global economy continues to expand.

Yes, there is a side in this debate which falls to pieces the moment a bullet is fired. There are those who would prefer Saddam to still be in power, the oil for food scandal to be ongoing, the lack of a clear understanding of Iraqs WMD status, the continued brutality from Saddam's regime over the majority of Iraqis and the instability that Iraq created by posing a certain and clear threat regarding his enablement of terrorism. And then there are those of us who realize that the world needed to change and that the status quo was going to lead to a far worse situation that what we see today. And those of us who take this all seriously know that what we are really concerned with is in preventing a far greater conflict with far more casualties in the future.

But all of that is lost on the far left who decided it wasn't worth our while to try and do what was right in so much as they might buy thenmselves another day, month year of their own personal peace of mind and chablis sipping time.

Again - it is all about character.

When I go to work - I do my job completely -I don't leave tasks undone so that the next person along has to finish up. I take care of the entire project.

If I tell a friend I will support them then I stand by what I said. I don't say one day that I will support them and then, when life deals them a blow, leave them high and dry.

Like I said. It's about character. It is about doing what needs to be done. It is about taking care of business now rather than leaving it - a much worse "it" to others to take care of.

And furthermore - If Bush had not gone into Iraq what do you think you and these folks would be saying about Bush now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeBROshZ0M

You know - it's hard to put all this together and understand the larger picture here -I'll give you that - but you should at least be honest about it.

callous · Joined: 10 Jul 2005 Posts: 15389 Location: In The Open

Chingu wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: US Military personel supply drinking water to Iraqi Children

US Military enforcing traffic laws

YES, we freedom loving people are winning the hearts and minds
of the average peace loving Iraqi citizens, one at a time.

It is as if you entirely miss the point. Not that I'm surprised.

You demostrate my point better than I could have.

You find it more important to show a few small incidents and try and make that reflective of our overall presence there in Iraq - intentionally ignoring and dismissing the rest of the 99.999% of great, good and heric deeds we are doing.

To me - that speaks to ones character. Enough said.

The Irony in this post is almost stomach twisting. Your series of youtube clips create an isolated picture of fantasy better than anyone could have ever done to oppose you in debate.

beachbum bob · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:51 pm Post subject:

Chingu wrote:
And furthermore - If Bush had not gone into Iraq what do you think you and these folks would be saying about Bush now?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfeBROshZ0M

You know - it's hard to put all this together and understand the larger picture here -I'll give you that - but you should at least be honest about it.

perhaps they be saying...great job in Afghanistan with democracy working and fantastic that OBL was captured, tried and executed...and containment seems to working just fine with Iraq...instead of the reality of those disasters too

BTW, character is also admitting mistakes...and taking corrective action...something thats been missing for a few years with the bush admin policies on Iraq

ZeroTolerance · Joined: 07 Oct 2006 Posts: 274 Location: Louisville, KY

Chingu wrote:
Quote: We didn't loose Vietnam militarily. We lost it / withdrew because we lacked the will to win. Social left progressives - the anti-war communists and the peacenicks pressured us to withdraw.

So we were winning the war in Vietnam?? The "peaceniks" and "communists" at home were the reason we lost in Vietnam? They "pressured" us to withdraw? So in other words, things were going "as planned" in Vietnam, that is, until the peaceniks and communists intervened, causing total failure in Vietnam?

That is completely grasping at straws, using an argument based in 1950s commie fear. As well, your statement that we didn't lose militarily is a complete fallacy.

Quote: Walter Coronkite and his minions of biased media anchors and reporters portrayed Vietnam innaccurately to the American people thus reinforcing a negative view across society.

With a media as diverse as the United States', with both idealist and realist standpoints, you are actually saying that it was a direct reason we lost Vietnam? Not only do I disagree 100%, your point is also complete speculation. Is this the "Cronkite Conspiracy"? :lol:

beachbum bob · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 3:57 pm Post subject:

ZeroTolerance wrote: Chingu wrote:
Quote: We didn't loose Vietnam militarily. We lost it / withdrew because we lacked the will to win. Social left progressives - the anti-war communists and the peacenicks pressured us to withdraw.

So we were winning the war in Vietnam?? The "peaceniks" and "communists" at home were the reason we lost in Vietnam? They "pressured" us to withdraw? So in other words, things were going "as planned" in Vietnam, that is, until the peaceniks and communists intervened, causing total failure in Vietnam?

That is completely grasping at straws, using an argument based in 1950s commie fear. As well, your statement that we didn't lose militarily is a complete fallacy.

Quote: Walter Coronkite and his minions of biased media anchors and reporters portrayed Vietnam innaccurately to the American people thus reinforcing a negative view across society.

With a media as diverse as the United States', with both idealist and realist standpoints, you are actually saying that it was a direct reason we lost Vietnam? Not only do I disagree 100%, your point is also complete speculation. Is this the "Cronkite Conspiracy"? :lol:

same old tired argument...Vietnam couldn't be "won" by any outside force....the french learned that, America learned that...

and what was the aftermath?? Did SE asia succumb to communism, did the commies take over Japan, S. Korea??

nope....

john wayne mentality.....only works in the movies

ZeroTolerance · Joined: 07 Oct 2006 Posts: 274 Location: Louisville, KY

beachbum bob wrote: ZeroTolerance wrote: Chingu wrote:
Quote: We didn't loose Vietnam militarily. We lost it / withdrew because we lacked the will to win. Social left progressives - the anti-war communists and the peacenicks pressured us to withdraw.

So we were winning the war in Vietnam?? The "peaceniks" and "communists" at home were the reason we lost in Vietnam? They "pressured" us to withdraw? So in other words, things were going "as planned" in Vietnam, that is, until the peaceniks and communists intervened, causing total failure in Vietnam?

That is completely grasping at straws, using an argument based in 1950s commie fear. As well, your statement that we didn't lose militarily is a complete fallacy.

Quote: Walter Coronkite and his minions of biased media anchors and reporters portrayed Vietnam innaccurately to the American people thus reinforcing a negative view across society.

With a media as diverse as the United States', with both idealist and realist standpoints, you are actually saying that it was a direct reason we lost Vietnam? Not only do I disagree 100%, your point is also complete speculation. Is this the "Cronkite Conspiracy"? :lol:

same old tired argument...Vietnam couldn't be "won" by any outside force....the french learned that, America learned that...

and what was the aftermath?? Did SE asia succumb to communism, did the commies take over Japan, S. Korea??

nope....

john wayne mentality.....only works in the movies

I agree, and there are a SLEW of other examples of countries not succumbing to communism. Communism is dead, on a global scale.

It's quite interesting that Vietnam and Iraq are both questionable in regards to Just War Theory, and more specifically, jus ad bellum. It's also interesting that these are two wars we have lost or are currently losing.

Chingu · Joined: 03 Apr 2004 Posts: 9617 Location: Illinois

beachbum bob wrote: Lumina wrote: One blessing for the Iraqis is that now they're developing an infrastructure they lacked. Schools are open. The free press flourishes.
I guess good news doesn't sell papers....

free press flourishes??? hmm..tell that to the iraqi journalists

I think they've been in the business of telling others that through doing what they do.