Political Crossfire Forums

[War Approving Democrat]

ontheyslay wrote: War Approving Democrat wrote: Kumar wrote: War Approving Democrat wrote: ontheyslay wrote: The Comrade wrote: ontheyslay wrote:
I said the most money and biggest miltary does not constitute the best country in the world. You have to take into account access to quality health care, education quality, standards of living, racial equality, government corruption levels, and the level of freedom. All of which, now that Bush has been in office, have seriously lacked behind most western European countries.

europe is mostly socialist. and the reason they all have healthcare is because the government taxes the s**t out of it's citizens. our education is some of hte best in the world. we actually educate everyone, unlike almost the entire world which educates the rich and the bright. almost all of the world is steeped in racism and racial inequality. government corruption does not make a country bad, it makes a government bad. and america is currently one of the most free nations in the world.

Yeah they tax the hell out of their citizens, and guess what, they all have health care, what a concept. Our education is pretty good when you compare the smartest in Europe with the smartest in the US. You're argument that the rest of the world only educates the rich doesn't really apply to most of Europe. Sweden has an extensive preschool, mid-level education, and higher education program. There are also less poor in advanced European countries. Government corruption occurs in all governments, and if you look at the level of US government corruption with that of Denmark for example, it's higher in the US.
Yeah the health care is NOT free. You pay for it in taxes and you pay for the poorer people too. This puts a burden on the rich that is not needed and it creates a bureaucracy on the health care system if all claims has to go through the government. Education is outdated yes but it is still good and again the government should only be responsible through high school because you increase the burden of the rich to pull the poor up. And the rich should not be forced to give to poor through any welfare if they want to that is why we have charity. Dose anyone have percentages of poverty because the population of European countries are much fewer than America's. Government corruption means bad government not nation.
The taxes paid in a country like Sweden do far more than just provide healthcare. They also ensure free daycare, free education (all the way through graduate school), and extensive family-friendly benefits. It's also inproper to say the rich are paying for the poor, since Scandinavian society in general has far more equal wealth distribution and lesser stratification.

I also don't understand why people have the impression that programs like universal healthcare are extraordinarily expensive. The Canadian government pays 50% less per capita for healthcare than the US government does.

I know that it pays for more than healthcare but the rich should not be forced to support the poor through these programs. and for universal healthcare America has a higher amount of Bureaucracy and how long are the waits in general wait to get things done in Canada? I have know people who lived in Canada who said that it took six months to get a MRI done there. Think about how long that will be in America?

Your argument that the rich support the poor is unwarrented, and simply not true. Everyone pays high taxes, not just the rich. The lines are also not that bad either, my father father was visiting Canada over the holidays last year, and they rushed him in wen he had chest pains, because he has heart problems and needed emergency surgery. It depends on the severity of the illness. If someone needs an operation urgently, they will get it.

Fine they pay equal percentages who pays more rich or poor? And the benefits were intended to help the poor so any welfare or wealth equality programs are not good because of the principle of you should work for what you get including benefits and money. So the rich are supporting the poor by paying more taxes to the government. Yes your father had an emergency I am talking about situations where there is no emergency how long is the wait? Because in America you can get an appointment same day even if it is not an emergency.

[ontheyslay]

Obviously the rich pay more because they have more money. Which is normal in any country. But you seem to think, especially when you say the rich support the poor, that poor people do not have jobs and are lazy and do nothing, which is not the case. If I am wrong in my assumptions, my appologies. Sure any American can not get an appointment whenever they want, but many cannot afford it, mainly because many people do not have health insurance. Waiting lists are exaggerated by many who don't support universal health care systems. In Canada it is impossible either to understand the true magnitude of wait lists or genuinely and manage the patients on those lists. Few current wait lists in Canada, or elsewhere, are sufficiently defined and standardized to provide consistent and geographically comparable databases. So in Canada for instance you would have to go province by province. An average of 2 to 5 weeks for non-emergency surgery is standard for most provinces. Though waiting lists is most likely more due to the fact that Canada has recently lowered the funding for the health care program.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: thats the point of the debate that I offer not an statement error which you already knew what I was talking about.


Calm down dude, like I say, it was funny so I played up to it with my compadre. Did you know Chavez were a band? Because I learned something new today!

Sorry that was my fault - It wasn't my intention to ridicule you - I just have serious trouble taking Chavez serious

[veritas lux mea]

kvee wrote: Let's face it our education system s*cks, not only that but our hospitals are going down, we are hated around the world, we are losing alot of money, we are gaining more and more people within poverty. What do you guys think? It seems like we are the British and Iraq are like the Minute men, lets put it in that context.

The comparison to the War of American Independence is viable save one thing. The minutemen were fighting against British oppression, for liberty, while most of the people fighting us in Iraq are fighting against U.S. oppression, for their own form of oppression.

[Vakten]

slitedeviance wrote: Vakten wrote: The why are we giving a free lunch to China?

Huh? Last time I checked the US owed China several trillion, so payback in lunches is fine, but they may prefer the money.

Your flaw in logic, no offense, is that you believe that money is the currency of politics and the measure of success.

The Chinese know full well that every dollar spent buying our power from us, pays them back ten fold.

Power, my friend, is the currency of politics.

We give them our power by buying from them things that we "should" be building ourselves.

But because our "leaders" have a 1 world philosophy rather then representing America "in" this world...we're going to be owned by foreign interests very quickly if it isn't already too late.

[Ozzone]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: We have the best Eduaction system in the world.
But you actually have to attend school to obtain the benefit.


Sorry but I have to disagree with you there - Any country that has a text book that claims Ben Franklin invented the light bulb is in serious trouble

There is? I don't remember any American textbook claiming Ben Franklin invented the light bulb.

Unless of course it's another country besides the U.S. Maybe it was France because they adored Ben Franklin.

[Revenant]

First...what is the rationale for "Greatest"?

This topic makes no sense whatsoever.

[Ozzone]

Revenant wrote: First...what is the rationale for "Greatest"?

This topic makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree. We've tried for 7 pages to debate this. It seems the socialists think America s*cks because it isn't the idol like Sweden.

At least that's what I got from it.

[Esin]

The Comrade wrote: Ozzone wrote: If America isn't the GREATEST country in the world anymore - WHAT IS??????

currently we are the only remaining superpower. last time i checked superpowers=greatest nations.

I would have to disagree with that. The Soviet Onion was a super power.... Even the Russians didn't want to stay there...

[Revenant]

Esin wrote: The Comrade wrote: Ozzone wrote: If America isn't the GREATEST country in the world anymore - WHAT IS??????

currently we are the only remaining superpower. last time i checked superpowers=greatest nations.

I would have to disagree with that. The Soviet Onion was a super power.... Even the Russians didn't want to stay there...

Best typo this week. I think so.

[sLiPpY]

psholtz wrote: American Ceasar wrote: I disagree, America is still the strongest nation in the world both economically and militarly; people still believe in "The American Dream"; American culture dominates the world today from sports icons, to movies, to pop music; the world wolfs down Big Macs and washes them down with Coca-Cola. And there are still millions of people waiting to get into the USA.
You're actually proud of McDonald's and Coca-Cola? :shock:


America's Best and Brightest

Now psholtz, we both know that those kids are a product of bovine growth horomone! err! Body by Milk! :P

[The Comrade]

Esin wrote: The Comrade wrote: Ozzone wrote: If America isn't the GREATEST country in the world anymore - WHAT IS??????

currently we are the only remaining superpower. last time i checked superpowers=greatest nations.

I would have to disagree with that. The Soviet Onion was a super power.... Even the Russians didn't want to stay there...


the soviet union is dead

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: There is? I don't remember any American textbook claiming Ben Franklin invented the light bulb.


When I was in the States in Oct - The people I was staying with, their 10 year old had to do an assignment on inventions by Ben Franklin. In the text book she had - it listed the light bulb as one of his.

Given how much he did invent. I was stunned at the error

[ontheyslay]

Ozzone wrote: Revenant wrote: First...what is the rationale for "Greatest"?

This topic makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree. We've tried for 7 pages to debate this. It seems the socialists think America s*cks because it isn't the idol like Sweden.

At least that's what I got from it.

I know, why would we want to try to improve this country by using examples from what works in other countries.

[curisz]

The U.S. is still the greatest, but we need to make some real changes if we want to stay that way.

There used to be jobs that could move a working class family out of poverty, put their kids through college, take care of their medical expenses and give them a decent retirement. The bulk of those jobs are moving to China and other nations. The jobs now available to someone without a college education do not provide any of these things. We need to make sure that our citizens are educated up to par for the good jobs that remain, and in that regard we are currently failing. Maybe that means we need more directed education, where we find peoples interests and strengths at an earlier age and help them prepare for a career.

It also means that there is going to be an even bigger divide between the haves and the have nots, and in fact we see that ocurring. Lets face it, the wealthy will always need a "servant class", which is basically what service oriented occupations amount to, no matter how independent those servitors might be. I don't think it impinges so much on the rich to require that those serveants are well cared for as far as health care, and I certainly think it fair that the best and brightest of the children of the working class should get a shot at moving up in the world by having their education paid for. If not the rich will simply import more educated people from other countries where their people's education IS paid for. How is that fair?

In order to maintain ourselves as the greatest nation it is necessary to maximize the human potential of our citizenry. We can't do that by continuing to ignore their needs in the areas of health and education.

I'm not saying that this future, the future of international corporatocracy, is ideal, but I think it is happening and I'm not sure it can be changed short of a worldwide revolution on a nearly apocalyptic scale, which is pretty unlikely. Short of that, I think this is the best way to adapt to its reality and give all citizens a fair shot at life.

[War Approving Democrat]

MG1962 wrote: Quote: There is? I don't remember any American textbook claiming Ben Franklin invented the light bulb.


When I was in the States in Oct - The people I was staying with, their 10 year old had to do an assignment on inventions by Ben Franklin. In the text book she had - it listed the light bulb as one of his.

Given how much he did invent. I was stunned at the error
Where did this person live do you now?

[Vakten]

Ozzone wrote: Revenant wrote: First...what is the rationale for "Greatest"?

This topic makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree. We've tried for 7 pages to debate this. It seems the socialists think America s*cks because it isn't the idol like Sweden.

At least that's what I got from it.

I think I layed out an alternative view.

Unlike most Democrats, I actually have a philosophy=0).

[Heinz]

ontheyslay wrote: Ozzone wrote: Revenant wrote: First...what is the rationale for "Greatest"?

This topic makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree. We've tried for 7 pages to debate this. It seems the socialists think America s*cks because it isn't the idol like Sweden.

At least that's what I got from it.

I know, why would we want to try to improve this country by using examples from what works in other countries.

Because those other countries only have 7 million people.

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Where did this person live do you now?

A University town in Kansas

[psholtz]

Ozzone wrote: Revenant wrote: First...what is the rationale for "Greatest"?

This topic makes no sense whatsoever.

I agree. We've tried for 7 pages to debate this. It seems the socialists think America s*cks because it isn't the idol like Sweden.

At least that's what I got from it.
So is that what you think?

That America should be more like Sweden?