Political Crossfire Forums

[Nathyn]

The following list is from Kant's work, "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch."

Immanuel Kant, a renowned philosopher, listed several conditions necessary for everlasting peace. The non-bolded text is my commentary.

1. "No Treaty of Peace Shall Be Held Valid in Which There Is Tacitly Reserved Matter for a Future War" -- We invaded Iraq, not because of any new criminal acts, but because of what happened in the past. This would be the equivalent of committing a crime, facing a jail sentence, and then years later, having the police randomly arrest and jail you again for the same crime. We cannot claim to be at peace if we do not at the same time put past grievances behind us. If Iraq had suddenly invaded Bosnia again or gassed its citizens, or even if we had invaded immediately following one of our planes being shot down, war would've been justified. But the only precursors to war were in President Bush's mind.

2. "No Independent States, Large or Small, Shall Come under the Dominion of Another State by Inheritance, Exchange, Purchase, or Donation" -- Aside from subjugating smaller countries through our alliances, America has conquered nations. We invaded Hawaii and conquered their people. Stealing land from the mid-western natives was not enough. We had to steal from the eskimos of Alaska as well. And today, America has countless territories, such as Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands, where they are governed by America yet have no Constitutional rights. The Marianas Islands have now become notorious for their sweatshops. These are nothing more than modern vassal-states. Anyone who opposes their freedom are the ideological descendants of those who opposed American freedom. Oh, and of course, I should mention our continuing occupation of Germany and Japan.

3. "Standing Armies (miles perpetuus) Shall in Time Be Totally Abolished" -- Oh, and this sure as hell isn't going to happen. Despite the fact that Costa Rica and Switzerland have proven that a nation doesn't need an army to exist peacefully, we're still too stubborn to change.

4. "National Debts Shall Not Be Contracted with a View to the External Friction of States" -- Today, America has contracted substantial debt for precisely the reason Kant described: to make war.

5. "No State Shall by Force Interfere with the Constitution or Government of Another State" -- I need not explain this one.

6. "No State Shall, during War, Permit Such Acts of Hostility Which Would Make Mutual Confidence in the Subsequent Peace Impossible: Such Are the Employment of Assassins (percussores), Poisoners (venefici), Breach of Capitulation, and Incitement to Treason (perduellio) in the Opposing State" -- The intelligence community's budget has skyrocketed in recent years (the NSA's budget is more than both the CIA's and FBI's). We tried to assassinate Saddam Hussein in previous years and though I'm no fan of Hugo Chavez, we're no doubt trying to assassinate him now too. I really don't think anyone can deny that America employs assassins and spies who do more than look around.

[sLiPpY]

If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D

[Nathyn]

sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D
I don't think anybody realizes how we've got a Pax Americana going on:

[Heinz]

sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D

Relying on just an Air Force and a National Guard is impossible.....

You're the United States not f***ing Switzerland. Certain things come with being a "superpower," as just like in sports, everyone wants a piece of the current champs. This is why a standing Army is neccessary now....was it needed when first implemented? Possibly, as the new Americans weren't sure of their current standings with the British, but you can argue how it was used in order to attack Mexico and later secure territories.

[Heinz]

Nathyn wrote: sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D
I don't think anybody realizes how we've got a Pax Americana going on:



Most of those countries have only a handful of troops. The big ones are Germany (Rammstein Air Base), Turkey, and Kuwait. There is a website online that tells you how many we have and where, but I think it hasn't been updated since 2004. I don't think having 1,200 troops in bosnia is going to start a pro-Americana revolution in the Balkans.

[sLiPpY]

Heinz wrote: sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D

Relying on just an Air Force and a National Guard is impossible.....

You're the United States not f***ing Switzerland. Certain things come with being a "superpower," as just like in sports, everyone wants a piece of the current champs. This is why a standing Army is neccessary now....was it needed when first implemented? Possibly, as the new Americans weren't sure of their current standings with the British, but you can argue how it was used in order to attack Mexico and later secure territories.

Speaking of Switzerland, they've obviously got a better plan than the US does. I think Purchasing power, is a more accurate measure of standard of living. In 1991 dollars, the purchasing power of the average citizen of Switzerland was $35,490 compared to $22,550 for the United States. US Consumer purchasing power for an individual had been at #1 in the world until the 1980's and now we're number seven on the list.

Switzerland also beats the US in the following measures..productivity, salaries, equitable wealth distribution, luxury-goods consumption, trading strength, poverty, personal and national indebtedness, inflation control, business strength and credit-worthiness. Granted we're still number one in productivity...but we're talking about a factor comparison, indicators of economic health.

America is number 13 in home ownership, with only about 59 percent of the population owning their own homes.

We have the highest percentage of two paycheck families in the entire world. For the US it's 58 percent, with the next closest being Japan at 33 percent.

Average household Debt for the US is $71,500. The UK is next in line at 35,500. Switzerland the average household owes $800 dollars.

Average household savings in the US is 4,201. Switzerland is $19,971.

IMHO "Screw the world!"

Switzerland's got it right.

[Heinz]

Quote: Switzerland also beats the US in the following measures..productivity, salaries, equitable wealth distribution, luxury-goods consumption, trading strength, poverty, personal and national indebtedness, inflation control, business strength and credit-worthiness. Granted we're still number one in productivity...but we're talking about a factor comparison, indicators of economic health.

So they're more socialist then the United States? So what?

When people hear the word "Switzerland" what comes to mind? A long history of geo-political warfare? Real power in the UN? Oh wait....what about the power to invade other nations?

Switzerland has none of those. So even if they exceed the US in the socialist standard of living, they have nothing of what most modern day nations recognize as being part of a superpower. The United States has all three that I mentioned and more.

Quote: We have the highest percentage of two paycheck families in the entire world. For the US it's 58 percent, with the next closest being Japan at 33 percent.

You also have 300 million people, and at least 11 million of those are illegal. The more people you have, the more likely you are to have families that both parents work. You have a bigger selection. Switzerland has maybe 6-7 million citizens so they have a smaller "pool" to choose from.

Comparing these nations to one another is like comparing Iraq to WW2.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html

The CIA factbook wrote: 7,523,934 (July 2006 est.)

Quote: Switzerland's got it right.

They also have 293,000 million less people to worry about.

[Nathyn]

sLiPpY wrote: Heinz wrote: sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D

Relying on just an Air Force and a National Guard is impossible.....

You're the United States not f***ing Switzerland. Certain things come with being a "superpower," as just like in sports, everyone wants a piece of the current champs. This is why a standing Army is neccessary now....was it needed when first implemented? Possibly, as the new Americans weren't sure of their current standings with the British, but you can argue how it was used in order to attack Mexico and later secure territories.

Speaking of Switzerland, they've obviously got a better plan than the US does. I think Purchasing power, is a more accurate measure of standard of living. In 1991 dollars, the purchasing power of the average citizen of Switzerland was $35,490 compared to $22,550 for the United States. US Consumer purchasing power for an individual had been at #1 in the world until the 1980's and now we're number seven on the list.

Switzerland also beats the US in the following measures..productivity, salaries, equitable wealth distribution, luxury-goods consumption, trading strength, poverty, personal and national indebtedness, inflation control, business strength and credit-worthiness. Granted we're still number one in productivity...but we're talking about a factor comparison, indicators of economic health.

America is number 13 in home ownership, with only about 59 percent of the population owning their own homes.

We have the highest percentage of two paycheck families in the entire world. For the US it's 58 percent, with the next closest being Japan at 33 percent.

Average household Debt for the US is $71,500. The UK is next in line at 35,500. Switzerland the average household owes $800 dollars.

Average household savings in the US is 4,201. Switzerland is $19,971.

IMHO "Screw the world!"

Switzerland's got it right.
Switzerland isn't that great of a country. They're racist, sexist, their directly-democratic government is dominated by big business more than ours (hence they're often referred to as "corporatist"), and so, Switzerland's government is extremely corrupt. Now, before anyone cites the survey of perceived corruption, I don't think that's a valid basis. What the public thinks exists has no basis for what actually exists. Most people in Switzerland support the right-wing government and so, naturally, they won't see corruption that actually exists.

Their executive branch is virtually unchangeable and stacked with right-wing parties (their legislative branch is changeable, but again, dominated by right-wing parties). And most pathetically, they didn't establish womens' right to vote until 1971.

The Swiss government and Swiss Bank hid Nazi funds for decades and some cantons of Switzerland today even have regressive taxation. Because they have one of the lowest taxes in the world and the Swiss Bank is still so unregulated, they're still a substantial tax-shelter for wealthy citizens of the world.

[sLiPpY]

Heinz wrote: Quote: Switzerland also beats the US in the following measures..productivity, salaries, equitable wealth distribution, luxury-goods consumption, trading strength, poverty, personal and national indebtedness, inflation control, business strength and credit-worthiness. Granted we're still number one in productivity...but we're talking about a factor comparison, indicators of economic health.

So they're more socialist then the United States? So what?

When people hear the word "Switzerland" what comes to mind? A long history of geo-political warfare? Real power in the UN? Oh wait....what about the power to invade other nations?

Switzerland has none of those. So even if they exceed the US in the socialist standard of living, they have nothing of what most modern day nations recognize as being part of a superpower. The United States has all three that I mentioned and more.

Quote: We have the highest percentage of two paycheck families in the entire world. For the US it's 58 percent, with the next closest being Japan at 33 percent.

You also have 300 million people, and at least 11 million of those are illegal. The more people you have, the more likely you are to have families that both parents work. You have a bigger selection. Switzerland has maybe 6-7 million citizens so they have a smaller "pool" to choose from.

Comparing these nations to one another is like comparing Iraq to WW2.

https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/geos/sz.html

The CIA factbook wrote: 7,523,934 (July 2006 est.)

Quote: Switzerland's got it right.

They also have 293,000 million less people to worry about.

What do productivity, salaries, equitable wealth distribution, luxury-goods consumption, trading strength, poverty, personal and national indebtedness, inflation control, business strength and credit-worthiness.

Have to do with Socialism? :?

Sure the US has more people than Switzerland, but to have twice as many two income families as Japan and France...?

No wonder families here are disentigrating. Two incomes and families with the highest level of debt, and the lowest savings rate out of the entire G8?

Yep, we're definately getting it right. :P

When I wake up in the morning, having a Superpower government doesn't do me a damn bit of good.

How many Americans do you think there are sitting around saying to themselves, well I'm in hock up to god's eyeballs...I don't have anything to fall back on? But thank god, our government is a "super power!'

That whole concept and level of global manipulation is inherently anti-Republic. It runs contrary to the "we the people" concept...but there are a lot of folks who would agree with you, in preferring "we the global government."

Thing is we're more than 90 percent down the road to a destination where there are no longer any assets left to support the "we the global government." By 2028 if not sooner, there will be an economic collapse domestically, that will make Argentina look prosperous in compariosn.

[Heinz]

Quote: What do productivity, salaries, equitable wealth distribution, luxury-goods consumption, trading strength, poverty, personal and national indebtedness, inflation control, business strength and credit-worthiness.

Have to do with Socialism?

Switzerland is a democratic-socialism. So even if they aren't parts of socialism in general, since the nation in which they are being applied to is, that makes them semi-socialist in a way.

Quote: Sure the US has more people than Switzerland, but to have twice as many two income families as Japan and France...?

The cost of living is higher in the US. Most poor in Europe own the box they live in, while most poor in the US have a TV, car and a house that they at least rent. In order for the US to get better standards of living on an income basis they must go backwards.

Quote: No wonder families here are disentigrating. Two incomes and families with the highest level of debt, and the lowest savings rate out of the entire G8?

Families are disenegrating because American society does not hold them in such high regards as it did before. Families are a thing of the past...Being a single mom is where it's at.

Quote: When I wake up in the morning, having a Superpower government doesn't do me a damn bit of good.....[....]How many Americans do you think there are sitting around saying to themselves, well I'm in hock up to god's eyeballs...I don't have anything to fall back on? But thank god, our government is a "super power!'


Of course it won't but it's more of a label anyway, and one that most nations who partake in the poltiical realm take to heart. They think we're top-dog so we have to defend ourselves accordingly. Since they think it's important, we are forced to do the same.

Quote: That whole concept and level of global manipulation is inherently anti-Republic. It runs contrary to the "we the people" concept...but there are a lot of folks who would agree with you, in preferring "we the global government."

Read above.......Nice try at a straw man though.

Quote: By 2028 if not sooner, there will be an economic collapse domestically, that will make Argentina look prosperous in comparison.

You can thank SS for that.

[lovebush]

sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D

that way if we ever have to fight a war it will be in our cities and destroy our infrastructure. You are a great example of why we cant trust the left with national security.

[sLiPpY]

Heinz wrote: Quote: What do productivity, salaries, equitable wealth distribution, luxury-goods consumption, trading strength, poverty, personal and national indebtedness, inflation control, business strength and credit-worthiness.

Have to do with Socialism?

Switzerland is a democratic-socialism. So even if they aren't parts of socialism in general, since the nation in which they are being applied to is, that makes them semi-socialist in a way.

Quote: Sure the US has more people than Switzerland, but to have twice as many two income families as Japan and France...?

The cost of living is higher in the US. Most poor in Europe own the box they live in, while most poor in the US have a TV, car and a house that they at least rent. In order for the US to get better standards of living on an income basis they must go backwards.

Quote: No wonder families here are disentigrating. Two incomes and families with the highest level of debt, and the lowest savings rate out of the entire G8?

Families are disenegrating because American society does not hold them in such high regards as it did before. Families are a thing of the past...Being a single mom is where it's at.

Quote: When I wake up in the morning, having a Superpower government doesn't do me a damn bit of good.....[....]How many Americans do you think there are sitting around saying to themselves, well I'm in hock up to god's eyeballs...I don't have anything to fall back on? But thank god, our government is a "super power!'


Of course it won't but it's more of a label anyway, and one that most nations who partake in the poltiical realm take to heart. They think we're top-dog so we have to defend ourselves accordingly. Since they think it's important, we are forced to do the same.

Quote: That whole concept and level of global manipulation is inherently anti-Republic. It runs contrary to the "we the people" concept...but there are a lot of folks who would agree with you, in preferring "we the global government."

Read above.......Nice try at a straw man though.

Quote: By 2028 if not sooner, there will be an economic collapse domestically, that will make Argentina look prosperous in comparison.

You can thank SS for that.

I'd disagree on SS, in that it's not SS that has ever been the problem. It's the governments mismanagement of SS that is the problem.

Primarily that Congress has almost always taken the money and issued itself an IOU.

How often in discussions of social securtiy reform do you ever hear a politician be honest and say...well we spent your retirement on something else....and now you need to bail the government out of the damn mess it's created. We're sorry, but even with private accounts you still won't have the opportunity to retire.

[Heinz]

Quote: I'd disagree on SS, in that it's not SS that has ever been the problem. It's the governments mismanagement of SS that is the problem

It takes up almost 45% of the US's GDP. Regardless of how it is implemented by the government or lack thereof, that's a lot of money for a single entitlement program to take up. Add to that that people are living longer these days and that means that more people are on SS and for longer periods.

Quote: Primarily that Congress has almost always taken the money and issued itself an IOU.

Well they shouldn't do that, but SS is a good source of theft revenue.

Quote: How often in discussions of social securtiy reform do you ever hear a politician be honest and say...well we spent your retirement on something else....and now you need to bail the government out of the damn mess it's created. We're sorry, but even with private accounts you still won't have the opportunity to retire.

Never, but then again I think SS should go the way of the Do-do bird.

[thefranzkafkafront]

I'll make a proper response later, but i'd just like to say Kant and the german idealistists in general were the masters of massive asumptions.

[The American]

sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D

Disbandment of military to reduce debt would not be logical in a time of war. You would increase the size of the target x 10 on the backs of Americans here and abroad. An exchange of policy in military force would invite disaster.

Trig.

[thefranzkafkafront]

The American wrote: sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D

Disbandment of military to reduce debt would not be logical in a time of war. You would increase the size of the target x 10 on the backs of Americans here and abroad. An exchange of policy in military force would invite disaster.

Trig.

What war?

[letsgooilers]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: The American wrote: sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D

Disbandment of military to reduce debt would not be logical in a time of war. You would increase the size of the target x 10 on the backs of Americans here and abroad. An exchange of policy in military force would invite disaster.

Trig.

What war?

Iraq?
Afghanistan?
The War on Terror?

[lovebush]

Nathyn wrote: The following list is from Kant's work, "Perpetual Peace: A Philosophical Sketch."

Immanuel Kant, a renowned philosopher, listed several conditions necessary for everlasting peace. The non-bolded text is my commentary.

1. "No Treaty of Peace Shall Be Held Valid in Which There Is Tacitly Reserved Matter for a Future War" -- We invaded Iraq, not because of any new criminal acts, but because of what happened in the past. This would be the equivalent of committing a crime, facing a jail sentence, and then years later, having the police randomly arrest and jail you again for the same crime. We cannot claim to be at peace if we do not at the same time put past grievances behind us. If Iraq had suddenly invaded Bosnia again or gassed its citizens, or even if we had invaded immediately following one of our planes being shot down, war would've been justified. But the only precursors to war were in President Bush's mind.

2. "No Independent States, Large or Small, Shall Come under the Dominion of Another State by Inheritance, Exchange, Purchase, or Donation" -- Aside from subjugating smaller countries through our alliances, America has conquered nations. We invaded Hawaii and conquered their people. Stealing land from the mid-western natives was not enough. We had to steal from the eskimos of Alaska as well. And today, America has countless territories, such as Puerto Rico, Guam, and the Virgin Islands, where they are governed by America yet have no Constitutional rights. The Marianas Islands have now become notorious for their sweatshops. These are nothing more than modern vassal-states. Anyone who opposes their freedom are the ideological descendants of those who opposed American freedom. Oh, and of course, I should mention our continuing occupation of Germany and Japan.

3. "Standing Armies (miles perpetuus) Shall in Time Be Totally Abolished" -- Oh, and this sure as hell isn't going to happen. Despite the fact that Costa Rica and Switzerland have proven that a nation doesn't need an army to exist peacefully, we're still too stubborn to change.

4. "National Debts Shall Not Be Contracted with a View to the External Friction of States" -- Today, America has contracted substantial debt for precisely the reason Kant described: to make war.

5. "No State Shall by Force Interfere with the Constitution or Government of Another State" -- I need not explain this one.

6. "No State Shall, during War, Permit Such Acts of Hostility Which Would Make Mutual Confidence in the Subsequent Peace Impossible: Such Are the Employment of Assassins (percussores), Poisoners (venefici), Breach of Capitulation, and Incitement to Treason (perduellio) in the Opposing State" -- The intelligence community's budget has skyrocketed in recent years (the NSA's budget is more than both the CIA's and FBI's). We tried to assassinate Saddam Hussein in previous years and though I'm no fan of Hugo Chavez, we're no doubt trying to assassinate him now too. I really don't think anyone can deny that America employs assassins and spies who do more than look around.


each of these might have made a good thread, but its to daunting to deal with the America bashing shotgun approach. Perhaps you would enlighten us with Kant's views on torture. I found them to be interesting.

[sLiPpY]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: The American wrote: sLiPpY wrote: If it were up to me, we'd keep the Coast Guard. Disband the Army and Marines...disband the Navy.

The National Guard units would remain and meet once a month as usual.

Fund NORAD, and the Air Force to the extent it defends North America.

Close all military bases on Foreign soil.

That would eliminate the Budget Deficit and let us pay down the debt x 10. :-D

Disbandment of military to reduce debt would not be logical in a time of war. You would increase the size of the target x 10 on the backs of Americans here and abroad. An exchange of policy in military force would invite disaster.

Trig.

What war?

Now that's something I've been wondering about myself. The only war I see, is that of the Bush Administration...with a paperbag. And the paperbag is winning. :pb:

[Heinz]

Quote: What war?

I say this speaking from a military point of view, but a "war" according to the US military is when the nation is under extreme danger in such a way that it might make the US a part of history in a bad way. If something is presenting an obvious threat to our homeland, the US military decalres a state of war nation-wide.

Put simply.....according to the US military September 11th was a war.