Political Crossfire Forums

mendosan · Joined: 02 May 2006 Posts: 2608

A PSG (Paris Saint Germain) fan was shoot dead whilst chasing a Jewish man. At least there racist to everyone equally.

today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldFootballNews&storyID=2006-11-24T161258Z_01_L24283462_RTRIDST_0_SPORT-SOCCER-FRANCE-FAN-UPDATE-3.XML&WTmodLoc=SportsLanding-C4-Wfoot-2

Kumar · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 15476 Location: Toronto

mendosan wrote: A PSG (Paris Saint Germain) fan was shoot dead whilst chasing a Jewish man. At least there racist to everyone equally.

today.reuters.co.uk/news/articlenews.aspx?type=worldFootballNews&storyID=2006-11-24T161258Z_01_L24283462_RTRIDST_0_SPORT-SOCCER-FRANCE-FAN-UPDATE-3.XML&WTmodLoc=SportsLanding-C4-Wfoot-2
Yup, at least they didn't leave out the black policeman. :lol:

jawsome · Joined: 17 Jan 2004 Posts: 13434 Location: San Diego

The French are the most nationalistic people I have ever come across. This is not surprising, though it is kind of worrying. I think the "France is turning into a Muslim nation" is absurd because the youth of immigrants almost all become very French/Western

Le Pen is INSANE. If you can read French, I highly suggest going here and read his platform. They make the US Constitution Party look like left-wingers. Everyone focuses on his immigration policies yet don't really acknowledge how crazy many of his other proposals are.

Akajjred · Joined: 12 Nov 2005 Posts: 1723 Location: San Francisco

jawsome wrote: The French are the most nationalistic people I have ever come across. This is not surprising, though it is kind of worrying. I think the "France is turning into a Muslim nation" is absurd because the youth of immigrants almost all become very French/Western

Le Pen is INSANE. If you can read French, I highly suggest going here and read his platform. They make the US Constitution Party look like left-wingers. Everyone focuses on his immigration policies yet don't really acknowledge how crazy many of his other proposals are.

Yea, he's a straight up NUTJOB.

Y2A · Joined: 27 May 2004 Posts: 1868 Location: New Jersey

Any people here from France or knowledgable of France here know if the National Front is expected to take any seats in the French National Assembly?

Canada_Rocks · Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 9043 Location: Vancouver

Kumar wrote: Canada_Rocks wrote: slitedeviance wrote: Argue the points? Allow me then...

Anyone who thinks the election of Le Pen would be a good outcome for France has CLEARLY not taken a look at what this guys party is proposing. Their economic and immigration polices would hand in hand disable, fracture and distort the french economy, which would in turn lead to a destabilisation of the EU. If you think the destablisation of the EU is a positive step then you clearly have no idea how it would affect world trade, and the price you pay for goods.

Perhaps if someone could turn round and bring up some of the plans he has, and argue why that would be good for France, then this can be re-assesed. Until then you're throwing your support behind a party simply because you think they will take care of the immigrant problem, which is a big issue because France needs educated immigrants from the former African colonies, as much as those countries need to keep them.

Who cares. Sometimes you just need to do something out of principle. Perhaps people on this forum forget that in REAL life you can't always disect and anylize events from your computer room. Sometimes a stand has to be made and it has to be un-PC
The problem is his solutions are idiotic. Proposing to ban all immigration is a moronic attempt to deal with the problem. The answer lies in restricting immigration, launch programs to help end the state of segregation, and break down the walls of xenophobia and racism present in French society (something like a third of French complained that too many coloreds were on their World Cup team--that's ridiculous.).

They are immigrants. THe french people shouldn't have to compramise or give any sort of effort to appease or "re-train" it's population. There is no entitlement for immigrents. A country has the right to stop the flow or boot them out.

Kumar · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 15476 Location: Toronto

Canada_Rocks wrote: Kumar wrote: Canada_Rocks wrote: slitedeviance wrote: Argue the points? Allow me then...

Anyone who thinks the election of Le Pen would be a good outcome for France has CLEARLY not taken a look at what this guys party is proposing. Their economic and immigration polices would hand in hand disable, fracture and distort the french economy, which would in turn lead to a destabilisation of the EU. If you think the destablisation of the EU is a positive step then you clearly have no idea how it would affect world trade, and the price you pay for goods.

Perhaps if someone could turn round and bring up some of the plans he has, and argue why that would be good for France, then this can be re-assesed. Until then you're throwing your support behind a party simply because you think they will take care of the immigrant problem, which is a big issue because France needs educated immigrants from the former African colonies, as much as those countries need to keep them.

Who cares. Sometimes you just need to do something out of principle. Perhaps people on this forum forget that in REAL life you can't always disect and anylize events from your computer room. Sometimes a stand has to be made and it has to be un-PC
The problem is his solutions are idiotic. Proposing to ban all immigration is a moronic attempt to deal with the problem. The answer lies in restricting immigration, launch programs to help end the state of segregation, and break down the walls of xenophobia and racism present in French society (something like a third of French complained that too many coloreds were on their World Cup team--that's ridiculous.).

They are immigrants. THe french people shouldn't have to compramise or give any sort of effort to appease or "re-train" it's population. There is no entitlement for immigrents. A country has the right to stop the flow or boot them out.
Wrong. Appeasing them would be to constantly pander to their demands, not insist on integration. France in particular has problems with primarily its North African immigrants due to its colonial legacy in Algeria and, as I and others have pointed out, the xenophobic and racist views that many people hold in French society. Considering this, it's illogical to assign all blame to immigrants when it can be very difficult for those who want to integrate to do so.

Heinz · Joined: 30 May 2006 Posts: 1636 Location: Philadelphia

Quote: Considering this, it's illogical to assign all blame to immigrants when it can be very difficult for those who want to integrate to do so.

I think the thing that prevents most immigrants from adapting to French society is French nationalism. Although, most of their immigrants are like the US's in that they want all of the benefits of a democratic-socialist society but don't want to pay in. I don't live in France so I don't know if there's some barrier also involved with the nationalist aspects of their nation that's preventing immigrants from becoming full-blown French citizens.

Canada_Rocks · Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 9043 Location: Vancouver

Kumar wrote: Canada_Rocks wrote: Kumar wrote: Canada_Rocks wrote: slitedeviance wrote: Argue the points? Allow me then...

Anyone who thinks the election of Le Pen would be a good outcome for France has CLEARLY not taken a look at what this guys party is proposing. Their economic and immigration polices would hand in hand disable, fracture and distort the french economy, which would in turn lead to a destabilisation of the EU. If you think the destablisation of the EU is a positive step then you clearly have no idea how it would affect world trade, and the price you pay for goods.

Perhaps if someone could turn round and bring up some of the plans he has, and argue why that would be good for France, then this can be re-assesed. Until then you're throwing your support behind a party simply because you think they will take care of the immigrant problem, which is a big issue because France needs educated immigrants from the former African colonies, as much as those countries need to keep them.

Who cares. Sometimes you just need to do something out of principle. Perhaps people on this forum forget that in REAL life you can't always disect and anylize events from your computer room. Sometimes a stand has to be made and it has to be un-PC
The problem is his solutions are idiotic. Proposing to ban all immigration is a moronic attempt to deal with the problem. The answer lies in restricting immigration, launch programs to help end the state of segregation, and break down the walls of xenophobia and racism present in French society (something like a third of French complained that too many coloreds were on their World Cup team--that's ridiculous.).

They are immigrants. THe french people shouldn't have to compramise or give any sort of effort to appease or "re-train" it's population. There is no entitlement for immigrents. A country has the right to stop the flow or boot them out.
Wrong. Appeasing them would be to constantly pander to their demands, not insist on integration. France in particular has problems with primarily its North African immigrants due to its colonial legacy in Algeria and, as I and others have pointed out, the xenophobic and racist views that many people hold in French society. Considering this, it's illogical to assign all blame to immigrants when it can be very difficult for those who want to integrate to do so.

Regarless, it is the French citizen's country. How do you suppose they make them integrate? THe US has been trying it for years. It doesn't work. When people immigrate in droves, they create their own little "towns" and they remain isolated. Sure in canada we think it's cute, well I don't but apperantly Canadians support multiculturalism even though I have never met one that does but ultimately, if immigrants don't want to adapt they can leave. If some other immigrants get caught in the crossfire who cares, they are immigrents too.

Canada_Rocks · Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 9043 Location: Vancouver

Heinz wrote: Quote: Considering this, it's illogical to assign all blame to immigrants when it can be very difficult for those who want to integrate to do so.

I think the thing that prevents most immigrants from adapting to French society is French nationalism. Although, most of their immigrants are like the US's in that they want all of the benefits of a democratic-socialist society but don't want to pay in. I don't live in France so I don't know if there's some barrier also involved with the nationalist aspects of their nation that's preventing immigrants from becoming full-blown French citizens.

So the FRECH CITIZENS who are FRENCH are to NATIOANLISTIC about FRANCE to accept immigrents that that aren't FRENCH. I see, what a bunch of ****. They should just shut up and do what their told. Who do they think they are??? Citizens or something??? Wait they are.

Heinz · Joined: 30 May 2006 Posts: 1636 Location: Philadelphia

Quote: They should just shut up and do what their told. Who do they think they are??? Citizens or something??? Wait they are.

I never said they couldn't do what they wanted when it comes to how they deal with immigration. If they want to kick them out, more power to them as it might get the US to do the same. I was pointing out that it is very hard to become a citizen in France if you're an immigrant because of their nationalistic ideals. France loves France.....That's fine and dandy but it doesn't leave a lot of room for those who migrate to their nation.

Kumar · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 15476 Location: Toronto

Canada_Rocks wrote: Kumar wrote: Canada_Rocks wrote: Kumar wrote: Canada_Rocks wrote: slitedeviance wrote: Argue the points? Allow me then...

Anyone who thinks the election of Le Pen would be a good outcome for France has CLEARLY not taken a look at what this guys party is proposing. Their economic and immigration polices would hand in hand disable, fracture and distort the french economy, which would in turn lead to a destabilisation of the EU. If you think the destablisation of the EU is a positive step then you clearly have no idea how it would affect world trade, and the price you pay for goods.

Perhaps if someone could turn round and bring up some of the plans he has, and argue why that would be good for France, then this can be re-assesed. Until then you're throwing your support behind a party simply because you think they will take care of the immigrant problem, which is a big issue because France needs educated immigrants from the former African colonies, as much as those countries need to keep them.

Who cares. Sometimes you just need to do something out of principle. Perhaps people on this forum forget that in REAL life you can't always disect and anylize events from your computer room. Sometimes a stand has to be made and it has to be un-PC
The problem is his solutions are idiotic. Proposing to ban all immigration is a moronic attempt to deal with the problem. The answer lies in restricting immigration, launch programs to help end the state of segregation, and break down the walls of xenophobia and racism present in French society (something like a third of French complained that too many coloreds were on their World Cup team--that's ridiculous.).

They are immigrants. THe french people shouldn't have to compramise or give any sort of effort to appease or "re-train" it's population. There is no entitlement for immigrents. A country has the right to stop the flow or boot them out.
Wrong. Appeasing them would be to constantly pander to their demands, not insist on integration. France in particular has problems with primarily its North African immigrants due to its colonial legacy in Algeria and, as I and others have pointed out, the xenophobic and racist views that many people hold in French society. Considering this, it's illogical to assign all blame to immigrants when it can be very difficult for those who want to integrate to do so.

Regarless, it is the French citizen's country. How do you suppose they make them integrate? THe US has been trying it for years. It doesn't work. When people immigrate in droves, they create their own little "towns" and they remain isolated. Sure in canada we think it's cute, well I don't but apperantly Canadians support multiculturalism even though I have never met one that does but ultimately, if immigrants don't want to adapt they can leave. If some other immigrants get caught in the crossfire who cares, they are immigrents too.
That's nice if it's their country. That doesn't mean they can treat other citizens like garbage because they aren't native-born, which is what you seem to be implying. It should be obvious that immigrants are also citizens. When you move to a new country, particularly one with a completely different language and culture, it is only natural to gravitate towards those who share the same language as you. The problem is that ethnic enclaves, where immigrants and their children close themselves off from the rest of the host country's society, are encouraged or even pointed to as an example of "tolerance". Banning immigration because flawed policies magnify its inherent problems is childish and naive.

As for the US, it has been one of the most successful countries in the world at assimilating its immigrants. The main problem these days is the flood of illegal Hispanic immigrants down there, which is something they must resolve. Immigration is a dominant reason why the US is the superpower it is today.

Canada's multicultural policy needs to be revised. On that I agree.

Canada_Rocks · Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 9043 Location: Vancouver

Heinz wrote: Quote: They should just shut up and do what their told. Who do they think they are??? Citizens or something??? Wait they are.

I never said they couldn't do what they wanted when it comes to how they deal with immigration. If they want to kick them out, more power to them as it might get the US to do the same. I was pointing out that it is very hard to become a citizen in France if you're an immigrant because of their nationalistic ideals. France loves France.....That's fine and dandy but it doesn't leave a lot of room for those who migrate to their nation.

True. Nationalism is becoming more and more popular in many places. Canada and America included.

Kumar · Joined: 21 Jul 2004 Posts: 15476 Location: Toronto

Heinz wrote: Quote: Considering this, it's illogical to assign all blame to immigrants when it can be very difficult for those who want to integrate to do so.

I think the thing that prevents most immigrants from adapting to French society is French nationalism. Although, most of their immigrants are like the US's in that they want all of the benefits of a democratic-socialist society but don't want to pay in. I don't live in France so I don't know if there's some barrier also involved with the nationalist aspects of their nation that's preventing immigrants from becoming full-blown French citizens.
Yes. The blame goes both ways. Not treating a fellow citizen as an equal exclusively because of where they were born is a primitive attitude that has no place in a civilized society.

Canada_Rocks · Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 9043 Location: Vancouver

Kumar wrote: Heinz wrote: Quote: Considering this, it's illogical to assign all blame to immigrants when it can be very difficult for those who want to integrate to do so.

I think the thing that prevents most immigrants from adapting to French society is French nationalism. Although, most of their immigrants are like the US's in that they want all of the benefits of a democratic-socialist society but don't want to pay in. I don't live in France so I don't know if there's some barrier also involved with the nationalist aspects of their nation that's preventing immigrants from becoming full-blown French citizens.
Yes. The blame goes both ways. Not treating a fellow citizen as an equal exclusively because of where they were born is a primitive attitude that has no place in a civilized society.

If they are a citizen that is another story. And you are right, it is a primitive attitude. Protecting your tride just like forging for food and having sex. Is there somethign worng with this? It isn't like they are going all irrational and hanging people here. When it leads to violence it is never appropriate but france has every right to keep it's country french.

Heinz · Joined: 30 May 2006 Posts: 1636 Location: Philadelphia

Quote: When it leads to violence it is never appropriate but france has every right to keep it's country french.

Absolutley they do....However, their love of themselves may prevent those who want to adapt to their society from doing so because the French think that they are incapable. It is an attitude that the US got rid of long ago, and for good reason.

Canada_Rocks · Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 9043 Location: Vancouver

Heinz wrote: Quote: When it leads to violence it is never appropriate but france has every right to keep it's country french.

Absolutley they do....

However, their love of themselves may prevent those who want to adapt to their society from doing so because the French think they are incapable of doing so. It is an attitude that the US got rid of long ago and for good reason.

Well, there is a reason why they believe this. Youc an see the same thing in Vancouver with the Chinese. A precident has been set and they countinue to prove us right. Immigrating to another country does not mean integrating. It is self evident. Perhaps those who want to come and become French will be screwed but their is no entitlement for immigrants so thier plees fall to deaf ears.

Canada_Rocks · Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 9043 Location: Vancouver

And for the record, If those immigrents want to protest they are welcome too it. If people think those muslims are nuts they haven't seen a western nation get down and dirty. We freaking perfected modern ass kicking. We blow up cities like we are cratching our asses. Something for all these islamic nationalists in France to consider. In fact, muslim nationalists all over the world.

Now I am getting all worked up. Immigrent discusions always does this to me.

Heinz · Joined: 30 May 2006 Posts: 1636 Location: Philadelphia

Quote: Perhaps those who want to come and become French will be screwed but their is no entitlement for immigrants.

I agree countries shouldn't bend over backwards to please people who came into their nation, but on the other hand if you pride yourself on being a semi-liberial society shouldn't it be easier to get into your nation and be accepted by your people?

To each his own.....

Canada_Rocks · Joined: 07 Jan 2005 Posts: 9043 Location: Vancouver

Heinz wrote: Quote: Perhaps those who want to come and become French will be screwed but their is no entitlement for immigrants.

I agree countries shouldn't bend over backwards to please people who came into their nation, but on the other hand if you pride yourself on being a semi-liberial society shouldn't it be easier to get into your nation and be accepted by your people?

To each his own.....

I accept people. I have friends of different ancestry and I appreciate the little bits of culture they bring to the mix. I go to my friends Duali Celebration every year but ultimately they have adapted. They became Canadians. I am for immigrents like that. As soon as immigrents start protesting and not integrating, this is when i get irate to the point of lunacy. Seriously, i love my country more than anything. I love Tim Hortons, I love Hockey and I love Molson. I, however, do not like looking at Mandarin characters spread across store signs nor do I like listening to Tagalog at top volume in the mall. I do not liek looking at mexican flags on cars and I do not like seeign giant posses of immigrents causing trouble or just going about their isolationist business.