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Ek0nomik
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: La Fleur
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ameriman wrote: So the idea of creationism...being that the origin of the material that makes up the universe is completely unknown...isn't necessarily that far out there of a theory now is it? Shouldn't we at least tell our children that there are alternative beliefs out there? Isn't that what education is?
I love that argument. Some people believe fairies are living underneath their garden. Should we teach that for a day? |
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lovebush
Joined: 02 Aug 2006
Posts: 1147
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:32 pm Post subject: |
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Ek0nomik wrote: [q
However, special relativity, etc etc, are thought to someday be proven. Even followers of God devoutly claim that God can't be proven. You can't claim the two to be the same.
some do some dont |
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Ameriman
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
Posts: 10707
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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mr.snruB wrote:
If there were theories that attempted to solve the same question, but could be proven, and the people wanting to teach the unproven math theory on a level field as the proven one also wanted to tell children "there is a debate as to which one is correct"....then no, it shouldn't
So let me get this straight. If there are conflicting theories out there we shouldn't even bother teaching them? Is that right?
You do realize that math theories make up a great deal of mathmatics as a whole right? Some of our most basic elementary classroom mathmatics is based on theories.
Quote: You don't see many people clamouring to get a "flat-earth" theory into classes, do you?
The earth being flat is false....it's not a theory... |
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Ameriman
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:33 pm Post subject: |
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Ek0nomik wrote: Ameriman wrote: So the idea of creationism...being that the origin of the material that makes up the universe is completely unknown...isn't necessarily that far out there of a theory now is it? Shouldn't we at least tell our children that there are alternative beliefs out there? Isn't that what education is?
I love that argument. Some people believe fairies are living underneath their garden. Should we teach that for a day?
There is a small difference don't you think?
What are you afraid of? That some of these children could possibly subscribe to creationism as a valid theory? |
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Ek0nomik
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: La Fleur
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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lovebush wrote: Afraid your beliefs wont hold up in comparison, hmm how little faith you have in your religion. :roll: Would you mind telling me who you heard the ID argument from. by your statements you seem to be rather ignorant of the theory.
Do you even know what my beliefs are? Do you know what faith in what religion I have?
ID is party of the Creationism series, that's all someone needs to know. I do know more, but that single piece of information is enough. |
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mr.snruB
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 7136
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:34 pm Post subject: |
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Ameriman wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Ameriman wrote: Hmmm.....
So...just out of curiosity....what is your theory on where the material that makes up the universe/universes and everything in it/them came from?
I don't know.....and I don't attempt to know. That's more of a physics thing. Not even related to evolution.
So the idea of creationism...being that the origin of the material that makes up the universe is completely unknown...isn't necessarily that far out there of a theory now is it? Shouldn't we at least tell our children that there are alternative beliefs out there? Isn't that what education is?
By the way...the science of physics doesn't discuss the origins of things...it discusses how things react to each other.
I'm sorry, I meant metaphysics. And Creationism does infact claim to know where it came from....a creator. If they believed that the origin of the material that makes up the universe is completely unknown they wouldn't be Creationists....they be agnostics/atheists (atheists don't claim to know where things came from, just that there are no gods) |
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Kumar
Joined: 21 Jul 2004
Posts: 15569
Location: Toronto
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ameriman wrote: Ek0nomik wrote: ID is creationism on crack. It can't be scientifically proven, therefore it shouldn't be taught in school. Evolution can be scientifically proven, and therefore should be taught.
There are tons of mathmatical theories that can't be proven....should they not be taught in school?
It's not about proof. It's about falsifiability and evidence. There is no testable hypothesis provided by creationism and it has no credibility as a scientific theory. |
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Ameriman
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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Ek0nomik wrote: mr.snruB wrote: Ameriman wrote: Ek0nomik wrote: ID is creationism on crack. It can't be scientifically proven, therefore it shouldn't be taught in school. Evolution can be scientifically proven, and therefore should be taught.
There are tons of mathmatical theories that can't be proven....should they not be taught in school?
If there were theories that attempted to solve the same question, but could be proven, and the people wanting to teach the unproven math theory on a level field as the proven one also wanted to tell children "there is a debate as to which one is correct"....then no, it shouldn't
You don't see many people clamouring to get a "flat-earth" theory into classes, do you?
You can't claim that the science of evolution and the science of God are the same. You just can't.
How about this one?
The science of evolution is the language of God? |
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Ek0nomik
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: La Fleur
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:35 pm Post subject: |
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lovebush wrote: some do some dont
Yeah, good point. You can believe anything you want if you believe in God. I forgot that part. <3 personal Gods. |
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Ek0nomik
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
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Location: La Fleur
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:36 pm Post subject: |
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Ameriman wrote: How about this one?
The science of evolution is the language of God?
It has no scientific merit. |
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Ameriman
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Kumar wrote: Ameriman wrote: Ek0nomik wrote: ID is creationism on crack. It can't be scientifically proven, therefore it shouldn't be taught in school. Evolution can be scientifically proven, and therefore should be taught.
There are tons of mathmatical theories that can't be proven....should they not be taught in school?
It's not about proof. It's about falsifiability and evidence. There is no testable hypothesis provided by creationism and it has no credibility as a scientific theory.
Since when do we have to categorize everything we teach in school as a "scientific theory"?
Just because we haven't figured out a way to test the hypothesis provided by creationism doesn't mean is has no credibility as a theory.
Regardless, don't you think our children should at least be aware of the idea of creationism? The aquirement of knowledge shouldn't be relegated to scientific theories that have testable hypothesis.
Are you suggesting we stop teaching philosophy? |
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Ek0nomik
Joined: 17 Jul 2005
Posts: 2065
Location: La Fleur
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:37 pm Post subject: |
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Ameriman wrote: What are you afraid of? That some of these children could possibly subscribe to creationism as a valid theory?
Why would I be scared of that? A majority of my friends believe in God as Christians. People I love very much believe in God.
Am I scared? No. But I like truth, and reasoning being based upon truth. |
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Revenant
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 17104
Location: Bliss
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ek0nomik wrote: Ameriman wrote: How about this one?
The science of evolution is the language of God?
It has no scientific merit.
End of Story.
Sheesh...
It's an attempt to get creationism into schools through the backdoor. It isn't scientific in the least. Teach it in a voluntary philosophy/religion class, where it belongs. |
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Ameriman
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:38 pm Post subject: |
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Ek0nomik wrote: Ameriman wrote: What are you afraid of? That some of these children could possibly subscribe to creationism as a valid theory?
Why would I be scared of that? A majority of my friends believe in God as Christians. People I love very much believe in God.
Am I scared? No. But I like truth, and reasoning being based upon truth.
If you were to ask your friends if it is true that God exists...what do you think they would say?
There is no truth in theories by the way. |
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Ameriman
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:39 pm Post subject: |
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Revenant wrote: Ek0nomik wrote: Ameriman wrote: How about this one?
The science of evolution is the language of God?
It has no scientific merit.
End of Story.
Sheesh...
It's an attempt to get creationism into schools through the backdoor. It isn't scientific in the least. Teach it in a voluntary philosophy/religion class, where it belongs.
Ahh the crux!!! Look at the contradiction of your statements.
You want it in or out? |
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Ameriman
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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Ek0nomik wrote: Ameriman wrote: How about this one?
The science of evolution is the language of God?
It has no scientific merit.
What theory is that based on? |
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mr.snruB
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 7136
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Ameriman wrote: mr.snruB wrote:
If there were theories that attempted to solve the same question, but could be proven, and the people wanting to teach the unproven math theory on a level field as the proven one also wanted to tell children "there is a debate as to which one is correct"....then no, it shouldn't
So let me get this straight. If there are conflicting theories out there we shouldn't even bother teaching them? Is that right?
Is that what I said? No. I said that if one is proven (as in, with evidence), and the other is not proven, we shouldn't teach the unproven one if at the same time we have to tell them "there is a debate as to which one is correct", misleading them. If you teach both but aknowledge that, at the time being, one has far more basis in fact than the other, then fine. But it's a bit of a waste of resources to waste time on an unproven theory for political reasons.
Ameriman wrote:
You do realize that math theories make up a great deal of mathmatics as a whole right? Some of our most basic elementary classroom mathmatics is based on theories.
Theories as in "Scientific Theory" (like Evolution), or as in the colloquial use of the term "theory"?
Ameriman wrote:
Quote: You don't see many people clamouring to get a "flat-earth" theory into classes, do you?
The earth being flat is false....it's not a theory...
I know that. That's precisely why I used that example |
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Ameriman
Joined: 01 Mar 2005
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:41 pm Post subject: |
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Ek0nomik wrote: lovebush wrote: some do some dont
Yeah, good point. You can believe anything you want if you believe in God. I forgot that part. <3 personal Gods.
Ummm...people can believe anything they want if they don't believe in God too ya know...
Some people believe that when they die they are going to be reincarnated into a ficus... |
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Revenant
Joined: 16 Apr 2006
Posts: 17104
Location: Bliss
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:43 pm Post subject: |
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Ameriman wrote: Revenant wrote: Ek0nomik wrote: Ameriman wrote: How about this one?
The science of evolution is the language of God?
It has no scientific merit.
End of Story.
Sheesh...
It's an attempt to get creationism into schools through the backdoor. It isn't scientific in the least. Teach it in a voluntary philosophy/religion class, where it belongs.
Ahh the crux!!! Look at the contradiction of your statements.
You want it in or out?
Having fun twisting my words to fit your alternate reality?
Out of science classes. Keep it in philosopy/religion classes which are not MANDATORY. Those who want to be exposed to theory which has no basis in science can be if they so choose. Everyone else can study real scientific theory in a science class, and leave the gobblety-**** in the religion classes, where it belongs. |
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mr.snruB
Joined: 21 Oct 2006
Posts: 7136
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:44 pm Post subject: |
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Ameriman wrote: What are you afraid of? That some of these children could possibly subscribe to creationism as a valid theory?
Yes. The children are the future, and if they're a bunch of brainwashed dumbasses then we'll be in trouble |
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