Political Crossfire Forums

Charlie Man · Joined: 02 Aug 2005 Posts: 4645

How can creationism not be provable or disprovable "yet?"
Are you implying that someday we'll be able to see god though science? Because I'm gonna have to say no. "Maybe someday we'll find god in a petri dish as well as in ourselves" does not count as falsifiability.

To be a theory, you don't need utility, but you DO need it to make testable predictions. The theory of relativity predicted novel behavior at high speeds and slightly different behavior for light, for some examples... were those not there the theory would have been able to be proven wrong. Evolution predicts continuity and progress in the fossil record and certain prerequisites and probabality of various adaptations or changes such as specition or developing resistances, and that solutions will be fairly optimal local maximums, for some examples. If we find a fully formed bird in the Cretaceous or see bacteria not develop resistance when they should, or find some leap from some solution directly to another (like if human metabolism completely changed in a few hundred generations), evolution will be proven wrong.

Creationsism, if something is amiss or out of place, "god did it that way." There are no real tests for it because it cannot be proven wrong.

Most varieties of creationism declare that life is static or that speciation is impossible, so although evolution and abiogenesis are two completely different things, creation does indeed attack evolution to survive, and vice versa. If you want facts that provide support for evolution and disprove many claims made by the proponents of those kinds of creationism, you can go for the various interesting microbial evolutions, such as the ability to digest nylon, a material that's been around for what, 60 years? There are also many recorded instances of plant speciation, and it certainly seems that lake washington salmon now have two seperating groups (they already have interbreeding problems is what I last heard, one's a colder water variety as I recall), as opposed to a single group in 1932.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1459943
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VC1iSpeciationPlants.shtml
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000EEC5C-F4C2-1C63-B882809EC588ED9F

bob.appleyard · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 7747 Location: Manchestar, innit

soldierofsoul wrote: First question, which bible? The sword of the spirit, the holy word of God(how many bibles are there?).

Many. Off the top of my head, the Greek Bible, the Vulgate, the King James Bible and the Good News Bible. All say slightly different things.

Quote: OK so in your mind evolution does not disprove God, well if you say that everything has evolved over time, then that makes God and Jesus nonexistent.

There is plenty of evidence for Jesus existing, independently of the bible(s). Whether he was the son of God is a different matter.

Quote: Why? You may ask. Well Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning, so if you say they were not, then God must be lying, and if they did not sin then Jesus had no reason to come and die for our sins, and save our souls. God created every living thing "he knows even the small sparrow".

God existing does not make the bible the word of God. Similarly, the bible being true does not make it the literal truth.

Quote: Also if we have evolved then we would not be dependent on God, we would be dependent on ourselves, we can't make it in this life without God(though some you try too anyways). The Lord created us in his image (I don't think he looks like a fish or a monkey), and please I would love to see where evolving is a fact.

I don't need to, you already know this.

Quote: Now we can adapt the same as with animals.

There we go.

Quote: But there is a difference from evolving, evolving means we do it on our own.

No, it doesn't. Evolution is a change in the distribution of alleles in a population over time. The causes of that change are for the various theories of evolution, which try to explain the hows and whys of that change.

Quote: Adaptation comes from God, we have genetics, and we know how to stay warm in the winter, and stay cool in the summer. Animals adapt also to there surrounding, but that does not mean they grow wings when they feel like it, they are caught up in there genetics and surroundings, they can think (the Lord did give us a brain), but he did not give us magical abilities to change the way us or animals look.

Magic is supernatural, and so precluded from scientific inquiry.

soldierofsoul · Joined: 19 Nov 2006 Posts: 256 Location: Fl

bob.appleyard wrote: soldierofsoul wrote: First question, which bible? The sword of the spirit, the holy word of God(how many bibles are there?).

Many. Off the top of my head, the Greek Bible, the Vulgate, the King James Bible and the Good News Bible. All say slightly different things.

Quote: OK so in your mind evolution does not disprove God, well if you say that everything has evolved over time, then that makes God and Jesus nonexistent.

There is plenty of evidence for Jesus existing, independently of the bible(s). Whether he was the son of God is a different matter.

Quote: Why? You may ask. Well Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning, so if you say they were not, then God must be lying, and if they did not sin then Jesus had no reason to come and die for our sins, and save our souls. God created every living thing "he knows even the small sparrow".

God existing does not make the bible the word of God. Similarly, the bible being true does not make it the literal truth.

Quote: Also if we have evolved then we would not be dependent on God, we would be dependent on ourselves, we can't make it in this life without God(though some you try too anyways). The Lord created us in his image (I don't think he looks like a fish or a monkey), and please I would love to see where evolving is a fact.

I don't need to, you already know this.

Quote: Now we can adapt the same as with animals.

There we go.

Quote: But there is a difference from evolving, evolving means we do it on our own.

No, it doesn't. Evolution is a change in the distribution of alleles in a population over time. The causes of that change are for the various theories of evolution, which try to explain the hows and whys of that change.

Quote: Adaptation comes from God, we have genetics, and we know how to stay warm in the winter, and stay cool in the summer. Animals adapt also to there surrounding, but that does not mean they grow wings when they feel like it, they are caught up in there genetics and surroundings, they can think (the Lord did give us a brain), but he did not give us magical abilities to change the way us or animals look.

Magic is supernatural, and so precluded from scientific inquiry.

You know, the devil tries to bring doubt, that is what he loves to do...he is the author of destruction and the prince of Lie's...God is truth and the Bible(whether King James, NIV,etc.) is truth. The Lord is not here to bring confusion he is here to provide a light of our life, he sent his only son to die and be hated and persecuted on earth. Read the bible dude, its your only chance, God loves you, Jesus loves you...you need to learn the truth, don't brush me off as a radical, think of me as someone trying to help you find the Lord, "salvation only comes from the Lord" through Jesus his son.

"He knew you before you were ever born."

Vulcidian · Joined: 05 Nov 2006 Posts: 892

soldierofsoul wrote: bob.appleyard wrote: soldierofsoul wrote: First question, which bible? The sword of the spirit, the holy word of God(how many bibles are there?).

Many. Off the top of my head, the Greek Bible, the Vulgate, the King James Bible and the Good News Bible. All say slightly different things.

Quote: OK so in your mind evolution does not disprove God, well if you say that everything has evolved over time, then that makes God and Jesus nonexistent.

There is plenty of evidence for Jesus existing, independently of the bible(s). Whether he was the son of God is a different matter.

Quote: Why? You may ask. Well Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning, so if you say they were not, then God must be lying, and if they did not sin then Jesus had no reason to come and die for our sins, and save our souls. God created every living thing "he knows even the small sparrow".

God existing does not make the bible the word of God. Similarly, the bible being true does not make it the literal truth.

Quote: Also if we have evolved then we would not be dependent on God, we would be dependent on ourselves, we can't make it in this life without God(though some you try too anyways). The Lord created us in his image (I don't think he looks like a fish or a monkey), and please I would love to see where evolving is a fact.

I don't need to, you already know this.

Quote: Now we can adapt the same as with animals.

There we go.

Quote: But there is a difference from evolving, evolving means we do it on our own.

No, it doesn't. Evolution is a change in the distribution of alleles in a population over time. The causes of that change are for the various theories of evolution, which try to explain the hows and whys of that change.

Quote: Adaptation comes from God, we have genetics, and we know how to stay warm in the winter, and stay cool in the summer. Animals adapt also to there surrounding, but that does not mean they grow wings when they feel like it, they are caught up in there genetics and surroundings, they can think (the Lord did give us a brain), but he did not give us magical abilities to change the way us or animals look.

Magic is supernatural, and so precluded from scientific inquiry.

You know, the devil tries to bring doubt, that is what he loves to do...he is the author of destruction and the prince of Lie's...God is truth and the Bible(whether King James, NIV,etc.) is truth. The Lord is not here to bring confusion he is here to provide a light of our life, he sent his only son to die and be hated and persecuted on earth. Read the bible dude, its your only chance, God loves you, Jesus loves you...you need to learn the truth, don't brush me off as a radical, think of me as someone trying to help you find the Lord, "salvation only comes from the Lord" through Jesus his son.

"He knew you before you were ever born."

That is fairly ironic, seeing as confusion over the scriptures is one of the things that has led us to evolution. There are so many churchs, and so many different religions that it is obvious that declaring something or someone holy does not provide any definitive answers or solve any problems.

God has inspired me to say that I love you soldierofsoul. It's obvious because I've written it here under my divine inspiration.

What kind of place does logic like this have in government or science? None. This unexplorative and uninformationaistic religious propaganda called "creationism" and "intelligent design" is as likely to be true as the existence of flying pigs.

The day I catch one is the day I'll rethink the near impossibility of what you're saying being the truth.

You're not trying to save anyone, you're afraid and you're trying to bring other people into your life of service and fear in the name of an invisible entity who may or may not do what you want.

This is not good science and it would not make for good government. So as I said when I started this thread, we need to keep creationist propaganda out of our government and our school system.

They could teach the science of creationism, problem is, it doesn't yet have any science to back up its hypothesis.

bob.appleyard · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 7747 Location: Manchestar, innit

soldierofsoul wrote: You know, the devil tries to bring doubt, that is what he loves to do...he is the author of destruction and the prince of Lie's...God is truth and the Bible(whether King James, NIV,etc.) is truth. The Lord is not here to bring confusion he is here to provide a light of our life, he sent his only son to die and be hated and persecuted on earth. Read the bible dude, its your only chance, God loves you, Jesus loves you...you need to learn the truth, don't brush me off as a radical, think of me as someone trying to help you find the Lord, "salvation only comes from the Lord" through Jesus his son.

"He knew you before you were ever born."

I was trying to have a discussion, not a conversion.

soldierofsoul · Joined: 19 Nov 2006 Posts: 256 Location: Fl

Vulcidian wrote: soldierofsoul wrote: bob.appleyard wrote: soldierofsoul wrote: First question, which bible? The sword of the spirit, the holy word of God(how many bibles are there?).

Many. Off the top of my head, the Greek Bible, the Vulgate, the King James Bible and the Good News Bible. All say slightly different things.

Quote: OK so in your mind evolution does not disprove God, well if you say that everything has evolved over time, then that makes God and Jesus nonexistent.

There is plenty of evidence for Jesus existing, independently of the bible(s). Whether he was the son of God is a different matter.

Quote: Why? You may ask. Well Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning, so if you say they were not, then God must be lying, and if they did not sin then Jesus had no reason to come and die for our sins, and save our souls. God created every living thing "he knows even the small sparrow".

God existing does not make the bible the word of God. Similarly, the bible being true does not make it the literal truth.

Quote: Also if we have evolved then we would not be dependent on God, we would be dependent on ourselves, we can't make it in this life without God(though some you try too anyways). The Lord created us in his image (I don't think he looks like a fish or a monkey), and please I would love to see where evolving is a fact.

I don't need to, you already know this.

Quote: Now we can adapt the same as with animals.

There we go.

Quote: But there is a difference from evolving, evolving means we do it on our own.

No, it doesn't. Evolution is a change in the distribution of alleles in a population over time. The causes of that change are for the various theories of evolution, which try to explain the hows and whys of that change.

Quote: Adaptation comes from God, we have genetics, and we know how to stay warm in the winter, and stay cool in the summer. Animals adapt also to there surrounding, but that does not mean they grow wings when they feel like it, they are caught up in there genetics and surroundings, they can think (the Lord did give us a brain), but he did not give us magical abilities to change the way us or animals look.

Magic is supernatural, and so precluded from scientific inquiry.

You know, the devil tries to bring doubt, that is what he loves to do...he is the author of destruction and the prince of Lie's...God is truth and the Bible(whether King James, NIV,etc.) is truth. The Lord is not here to bring confusion he is here to provide a light of our life, he sent his only son to die and be hated and persecuted on earth. Read the bible dude, its your only chance, God loves you, Jesus loves you...you need to learn the truth, don't brush me off as a radical, think of me as someone trying to help you find the Lord, "salvation only comes from the Lord" through Jesus his son.

"He knew you before you were ever born."

That is fairly ironic, seeing as confusion over the scriptures is one of the things that has led us to evolution. There are so many churchs, and so many different religions that it is obvious that declaring something or someone holy does not provide any definitive answers or solve any problems.

God has inspired me to say that I love you soldierofsoul. It's obvious because I've written it here under my divine inspiration.

What kind of place does logic like this have in government or science? None. This unexplorative and uninformationaistic religious propaganda called "creationism" and "intelligent design" is as likely to be true as the existence of flying pigs.

The day I catch one is the day I'll rethink the near impossibility of what you're saying being the truth.

You're not trying to save anyone, you're afraid and you're trying to bring other people into your life of service and fear in the name of an invisible entity who may or may not do what you want.

This is not good science and it would not make for good government. So as I said when I started this thread, we need to keep creationist propaganda out of our government and our school system.

They could teach the science of creationism, problem is, it doesn't yet have any science to back up its hypothesis.

Well I love you too man, but you are very confused, and I am sorry that you did not want the creationist propaganda in this thread....but it is in your title. I'm sorry but I must take up for my God. Creationism is very real (read about it in Geneses) now if you don't want to believe it that is your decision, but I will continue to pray for you and hope one day you will see the light of the world, and how much God loves you...that he created you in his image, and had his own son die for you and me and everyone, so we may one day be in perfect peace and knowledge through Him. But until we die we must argue why we are here now, and again I will give you a reference...the BIBLE, please read it, it will open your eyes.

US_Republican · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 118 Location: USA

Sensor wrote:
Evolution does not answer how life came to being. It just describes how it _evolved_.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/Creation wrote:
cre-a-tion –noun
1. the act of producing or causing to exist; the act of creating; engendering.
2. the fact of being created.
3. something that is or has been created.
4. the Creation, the original bringing into existence of the universe by God.

I have a simple solution. Teach evolution and creationism side-by-side. The Big Bang Theory qualifies as a theory and can be seen a creationism. To teach only one of these theories would be a direct invasion of the First Amendment. I as a student myself have NO issue with evolution being taught as long as intelligent design right along side it. Creation as defined above clearly outlines that it is the beginning of something by creating it. As for evolution it is the change of something existing. So to say that evolution WAS the beginning is ignorant. For one there is no reason for a cell to organize in to a multi-cellular organism. And two the cell wouldn't have the reasoning capability even if there was a scenario that would require such behavior.

~Simply Stated

Tracker · Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:13 pm Post subject:

Charlie Man wrote: How can creationism not be provable or disprovable "yet?"
Are you implying that someday we'll be able to see god though science? Because I'm gonna have to say no. "Maybe someday we'll find god in a petri dish as well as in ourselves" does not count as falsifiability.

To be a theory, you don't need utility, but you DO need it to make testable predictions. The theory of relativity predicted novel behavior at high speeds and slightly different behavior for light, for some examples... were those not there the theory would have been able to be proven wrong. Evolution predicts continuity and progress in the fossil record and certain prerequisites and probabality of various adaptations or changes such as specition or developing resistances, and that solutions will be fairly optimal local maximums, for some examples. If we find a fully formed bird in the Cretaceous or see bacteria not develop resistance when they should, or find some leap from some solution directly to another (like if human metabolism completely changed in a few hundred generations), evolution will be proven wrong.

Creationsism, if something is amiss or out of place, "god did it that way." There are no real tests for it because it cannot be proven wrong.

Most varieties of creationism declare that life is static or that speciation is impossible, so although evolution and abiogenesis are two completely different things, creation does indeed attack evolution to survive, and vice versa. If you want facts that provide support for evolution and disprove many claims made by the proponents of those kinds of creationism, you can go for the various interesting microbial evolutions, such as the ability to digest nylon, a material that's been around for what, 60 years? There are also many recorded instances of plant speciation, and it certainly seems that lake washington salmon now have two seperating groups (they already have interbreeding problems is what I last heard, one's a colder water variety as I recall), as opposed to a single group in 1932.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=pubmed&dopt=Abstract&list_uids=1459943
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosite/evo101/VC1iSpeciationPlants.shtml
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=000EEC5C-F4C2-1C63-B882809EC588ED9F

This is nothing more than overly-intellectualized babble. It's a simple matter, really:

Firstly, a theory is called a 'theory' when FACTS are ABSENT. It is merely a 'possible-answer' to compare with other theories, 'possible-answers,' not FACTS, because facts are ABSENT.

And you have five senses to VERIFY the difference between which is REAL and what is THEORY.

A possible-answer, a theory, is NOT yet another hateful religion to HATE those whom do not goose-step in lock-step with your so-called 'positive-goodness' -- belief in CONJECTURE -- which is a mental-illness, by definition.

So, a 'creationist' INFILTRATES and INFECTS the educational-system -- society, itself -- through PROMOTING the concept that possible-answers, 'theories,' must be 'believed.'

Which PROMOTES 'Creationism.'

It's THAT subtle.

And that dangerous.

bob.appleyard · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 7747 Location: Manchestar, innit

US_Republican wrote: For one there is no reason for a cell to organize in to a multi-cellular organism.

Survival advantage?

Quote: And two the cell wouldn't have the reasoning capability even if there was a scenario that would require such behavior.

The organism does not need to realise that it has a survival advantage, it not being killed off is enough.

Tracker · Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:21 pm Post subject:

soldierofsoul wrote: how much God loves you...that he created you in his image, and had his own son die for you and me and everyone, so we may one day be in perfect peace and knowledge through Him. But until we die we must argue why we are here now, and again I will give you a reference...the BIBLE, please read it, it will open your eyes.

Why? To learn how to HATE 'not YOUR kind of people' goose-step in lock-step with your so-called 'positive-goodness'? To DIVIDE tribes over petty differences, hating all things unique, and perversley sniffing crotches like DOGS in order to put CONDITIONS on and 'quantify' love -- to DENY EQUALITY, life, liberty, services and prsuits of happiness -- then have the audacity to claim YOU are 'indecent' ...

It seems you are only capable of spouting out-of-context passages -- punching a few HOLES out of a VOLUME -- without ever applying THE MESSAGE of the WHOLE and describing that 'difference' in your own life as a citizen within a universal community.

.Way to go, 'sport' -- you got that all AssBackwards, too.

Tracker · Posted: Mon Nov 27, 2006 10:38 pm Post subject:

US_Republican wrote: Sensor wrote:
Evolution does not answer how life came to being. It just describes how it _evolved_.

dictionary.reference.com/browse/Creation wrote:
cre-a-tion –noun
1. the act of producing or causing to exist; the act of creating; engendering.
2. the fact of being created.
3. something that is or has been created.
4. the Creation, the original bringing into existence of the universe by God.

I have a simple solution. Teach evolution and creationism side-by-side. The Big Bang Theory qualifies as a theory and can be seen a creationism. To teach only one of these theories would be a direct invasion of the First Amendment. I as a student myself have NO issue with evolution being taught as long as intelligent design right along side it. Creation as defined above clearly outlines that it is the beginning of something by creating it. As for evolution it is the change of something existing. So to say that evolution WAS the beginning is ignorant. For one there is no reason for a cell to organize in to a multi-cellular organism. And two the cell wouldn't have the reasoning capability even if there was a scenario that would require such behavior.

~Simply Stated

Public School or work is NOT the place to be brainwashing the masses into promoting religion nor, religious agendas.

If you want to 'teach' kids how to HATE others whom do not goose-step in lock-step with your so-called 'positive-goodness' in 'believing' in the IMPOSSIBLE, then you should do it on your time and be prepared to be brought up on CHARGES for mentally abusing children.

And that is exactly why I have charged every religion on earth with CrimesAgainstHumanity.

More and more citizens are doing it -- I suggest it to ALL -- class-action -- all names under mine ("3Ons").

It is irresponsible parenting to teach a child that a theory is a 'fact' that must be 'believed'

-- it is HATEFUL --

-- in order to dupe a child into 'believing' in a fictional life in a fictional undisclosed location, bowed-down forever before total BLANDNESS after your KING mass-murdered all things 'different' and 'unique' for YOU, in so-called 'positive-goodness,' which is obviously the epitome of HATE.

A theory is called a 'theory' because FACTS are ABSENT. A theory must NEVER be 'believed' -- it is merely a 'possible-answer' -- and 'believing' in a theory leads to ASSumptive-logic, the last gasping breath of 'science' -- because REAL science is NONE OF THAT.

Today, that INFECTION -- that ThoughtVirus -- runs so rampant in society that even the non-religious claim 'belief' in theories. TheoryWorship -- another concocted excuse to be religious hateful of those 'not good enough for your own so-called 'positive-goodness' -- because they do not 'believe' in your new TheoryWorship idol with you.

It has ALREADY UNDERMINED SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY, globally.

It's a global-crisis of untol magnitude -- vast, huge, multi-faceted.

And NOBODY IS PAYING ATTENTION, as usual, in their so-called 'positive-goodness.' :roll:

Refrozen Seabass · Joined: 19 Apr 2005 Posts: 2905

US_Republican wrote: I have a simple solution. Teach evolution and creationism side-by-side.

I have a simpler solution. Teach evolution and ignore creationism.

[QuoteThe Big Bang Theory qualifies as a theory and can be seen a creationism.[/Quote]

The Big Bang has nothing to do with evolution or biology. As for calling it creationism, you can call cooking a pie creationism if you like. That doesn't lend your ideas scientific credibility, though.

Quote: To teach only one of these theories would be a direct invasion of the First Amendment.

Let's check that out.

The First Amendment wrote: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Nope, nothing in there about being obliged to provide a venue for your ideas or forcing schools to treat them as valid.

Quote: I as a student myself have NO issue with evolution being taught as long as intelligent design right along side it.

I have an issue: Intelligent Design is bunk and has no place in the classroom.

ontheyslay · Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 274 Location: Michigan

Just a quick question for creationism advocates. Do you believe in evolution?

Because evolution is a fact, only the mechanisms for evolution are theories.

Vulcidian · Joined: 05 Nov 2006 Posts: 892

soldierofsoul wrote: Vulcidian wrote: soldierofsoul wrote: bob.appleyard wrote: soldierofsoul wrote: First question, which bible? The sword of the spirit, the holy word of God(how many bibles are there?).

Many. Off the top of my head, the Greek Bible, the Vulgate, the King James Bible and the Good News Bible. All say slightly different things.

Quote: OK so in your mind evolution does not disprove God, well if you say that everything has evolved over time, then that makes God and Jesus nonexistent.

There is plenty of evidence for Jesus existing, independently of the bible(s). Whether he was the son of God is a different matter.

Quote: Why? You may ask. Well Adam and Eve were perfect in the beginning, so if you say they were not, then God must be lying, and if they did not sin then Jesus had no reason to come and die for our sins, and save our souls. God created every living thing "he knows even the small sparrow".

God existing does not make the bible the word of God. Similarly, the bible being true does not make it the literal truth.

Quote: Also if we have evolved then we would not be dependent on God, we would be dependent on ourselves, we can't make it in this life without God(though some you try too anyways). The Lord created us in his image (I don't think he looks like a fish or a monkey), and please I would love to see where evolving is a fact.

I don't need to, you already know this.

Quote: Now we can adapt the same as with animals.

There we go.

Quote: But there is a difference from evolving, evolving means we do it on our own.

No, it doesn't. Evolution is a change in the distribution of alleles in a population over time. The causes of that change are for the various theories of evolution, which try to explain the hows and whys of that change.

Quote: Adaptation comes from God, we have genetics, and we know how to stay warm in the winter, and stay cool in the summer. Animals adapt also to there surrounding, but that does not mean they grow wings when they feel like it, they are caught up in there genetics and surroundings, they can think (the Lord did give us a brain), but he did not give us magical abilities to change the way us or animals look.

Magic is supernatural, and so precluded from scientific inquiry.

You know, the devil tries to bring doubt, that is what he loves to do...he is the author of destruction and the prince of Lie's...God is truth and the Bible(whether King James, NIV,etc.) is truth. The Lord is not here to bring confusion he is here to provide a light of our life, he sent his only son to die and be hated and persecuted on earth. Read the bible dude, its your only chance, God loves you, Jesus loves you...you need to learn the truth, don't brush me off as a radical, think of me as someone trying to help you find the Lord, "salvation only comes from the Lord" through Jesus his son.

"He knew you before you were ever born."

That is fairly ironic, seeing as confusion over the scriptures is one of the things that has led us to evolution. There are so many churchs, and so many different religions that it is obvious that declaring something or someone holy does not provide any definitive answers or solve any problems.

God has inspired me to say that I love you soldierofsoul. It's obvious because I've written it here under my divine inspiration.

What kind of place does logic like this have in government or science? None. This unexplorative and uninformationaistic religious propaganda called "creationism" and "intelligent design" is as likely to be true as the existence of flying pigs.

The day I catch one is the day I'll rethink the near impossibility of what you're saying being the truth.

You're not trying to save anyone, you're afraid and you're trying to bring other people into your life of service and fear in the name of an invisible entity who may or may not do what you want.

This is not good science and it would not make for good government. So as I said when I started this thread, we need to keep creationist propaganda out of our government and our school system.

They could teach the science of creationism, problem is, it doesn't yet have any science to back up its hypothesis.

Well I love you too man, but you are very confused, and I am sorry that you did not want the creationist propaganda in this thread....but it is in your title. I'm sorry but I must take up for my God. Creationism is very real (read about it in Geneses) now if you don't want to believe it that is your decision, but I will continue to pray for you and hope one day you will see the light of the world, and how much God loves you...that he created you in his image, and had his own son die for you and me and everyone, so we may one day be in perfect peace and knowledge through Him. But until we die we must argue why we are here now, and again I will give you a reference...the BIBLE, please read it, it will open your eyes.

Learning about Creationism from Genesis is no different from learning about Creationism from the Rig Vedas. It is your opinion that makes the Bible more important or more truthful than any of these other religious book.

I know that they are false. I know it as closely as anything can be known. Yes, there is always the possibility that I am wrong, but there is simply no evidence to the contrary.

If you held your Bible up to the same standards of proof that you do your children, or coworkers, or salesmen, you would throw out its "incontrovertable" truth in an instant. I can say this for sure, I am certainly no more confused about the world than you are. At least I try to look for answers that I can demonstrate before your very eyes.

You are lost in you lack of understanding of the meaning behind your own words. Your mind has been structured so that it is difficult for you to understand the world beyond the "truths" of your book. If the world does not match up to your Bible, it is not the world but your Bible that needs to be questioned, is it the one that claims to be perfect.

Your god and your Bible have no place in our government. In our government we stand as equals, and we are bound by laws which we have agreed upon. Our laws are not held by any higher power beyond the government which we ourselves are a part.

Watch the Shuttle launch on the news sometime, and you can witness the power of man. The power that can do things greater than anything our Bible would have led us to believe. We are not weak an helpless creatures, we do not need supernatural help. Your faith in god is no faith at all, it is a lack of faith in yourself.

I have faith in you. I believe you can choose at any moment to build the life that you want. Not the life that some Jewish scholar 1600 years ago thinks you should have.

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10788

Dookiestix wrote: Ameriman wrote: ontheyslay wrote: And to say creationism and evolution aren't oppositional is just not true. They give two different views for the beggining of life. You can't get more oppositional than having conflicting views on one subject :roll:

Evolution doesn't even touch the beginning of life...simply how life evolves.
Bull. Evolution and modern science have looked extensively at the beginning of life. All the components are out there in space for there to be the perfect cosmic soup which could spawn life on another planet. As water is a fundamental component of the beginning of life on other planets, we can look at the dirty, icy comets which are teaming with the right particles to help in this process.

We could have evolved from a microbe, which in turn was delivered by some celestial body which may have slammed into our planet and started the chain of life. To me, this is much more feasible than considering that some omnipotent presence just snapped his or her fingers, and in just 7 days we were running on all pistons. This is a story written by those who were trying to explain their very existence at a time when our understanding of the universe was purely mythical, not scientific.

Yet another person that is having trouble distinguishing from religion vs. creationism.

Where did the particles come from?

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10788

ontheyslay wrote:
I believe it was when you disregarded when I said this:

The scientific approach uses the scientific method as a means of discovering information about nature. Scientists use observations, hypotheses and deductions to propose explanations for natural phenomena in the form of scientific theories. Predictions from these theories are tested by experiment. If a prediction turns out to be correct, the theory survives.

Creationism, on the other hand, works by taking theologically conservative interpretations of scripture as the primary or only source of information about origins. Creationists believe that since the Creator created everything and also revealed scriptures, the scriptures have pre-eminence as a kind of evidence. Consistency with their interpretations of scripture is the measure by which they judge all other evidence. They then accept or reject scientific accounts based on whether or not they agree with their beliefs, discounting that which contradicts their understanding of scriptural revelation.

I told you to seperte religion vs. creationism. You still have yet to do that.

Quote: Yet you still think creationism should be in a science class. Disregarding scientific research because it does not fit your particular viewpoint is not good science, and does not produce positive results.

I think the mention of it as a theory of where the universe came from is one more piece of knowledge that should be imparted on those who are asking the question.

If you are thinking that I believe we should teach Christianity or Islam or any other religion in science class you are mistaken.

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10788

ontheyslay wrote: Ameriman wrote: ontheyslay wrote:
The theory of evolution, if it is actual fact does disprove creationism.

How?

Quote: That doesn't neccessarily mean it disproves God, though it doesn't help the case for religion. People who take Genesis literally would say it does, other scholars would say it was God's plan all along for people to evolve.

Though myself personally do not believe in creationism or God, I find it fanciful and ridiculous.

It's important to look through bias in the search for knowledge.
It is important to ignore bias, too bad creationists don't agree with this view.

Well at least you've conceeded the point. You're bias against creationism isn't a strong adovcate for your beliefs though...

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10788

ontheyslay wrote: Ameriman wrote: ontheyslay wrote: And to say creationism and evolution aren't oppositional is just not true. They give two different views for the beggining of life. You can't get more oppositional than having conflicting views on one subject :roll:

Evolution doesn't even touch the beginning of life...simply how life evolves.
One part of evolution is the study of where everything came from, not just how a particular species evolved. If you took an evolutionary theory class at the university level, you would know this.

OK. Where did everything come from according to Evolution?

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10788

ontheyslay wrote:

Why wold you tell a student about a hypothesis that has nothing to do with science but rather theology? The days when a science class were there to advocate a theological viewpoint are long gone.

Because it relates to science....how many times do I have to explain to you that just because we haven't figured out how to observe or test a hypothesis, doesn't mean it doesn't deserve or warrant consideration.

Also, try and put this into context.

Religion belongs in theology class.

How long do you think a Creationism class would last? 5...10 minutes?

Here let me help you with what I believe should be in a science class:

When asked about the origins of the universe:

"There are those who subscribe to the theory of Creationism in one form or another."

THE END.

Now that wasn't so hard was it?

Ameriman · Joined: 01 Mar 2005 Posts: 10788

ontheyslay wrote: Just a quick question for creationism advocates. Do you believe in evolution?

Because evolution is a fact, only the mechanisms for evolution are theories.

Sure...how that disproves Creationism is beyond me..