Political Crossfire Forums

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15544 Location: On Earth

John wrote: superskippy wrote: John I'm curious, you have claimed that evangelists are the sole allies of the Jewish people besides God (if I worded that wrong I think you understand my meaning), but you have also said that people have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. So my question is this, are Jews in your mind damned to hell because we dont believe in Jesus in this world?

If you reject the Messiah as your Lord and Savior...in other words reject God's plan for Salvation then yes, you'll be damned and go to Hell. But that’s between you and God…and according to prophecy…the Jews will come around and will accept the Messiah. It’ll all make sense when everything is said and done….Evangelicals trust God’s will and His word…so there is no doubt that this will all work out in the end for the Jews.

Every God-fearing person will accept the Messiah when he comes around.

John · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 1:40 am Post subject:

Saracen wrote: John wrote: superskippy wrote: John I'm curious, you have claimed that evangelists are the sole allies of the Jewish people besides God (if I worded that wrong I think you understand my meaning), but you have also said that people have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. So my question is this, are Jews in your mind damned to hell because we dont believe in Jesus in this world?

If you reject the Messiah as your Lord and Savior...in other words reject God's plan for Salvation then yes, you'll be damned and go to Hell. But that’s between you and God…and according to prophecy…the Jews will come around and will accept the Messiah. It’ll all make sense when everything is said and done….Evangelicals trust God’s will and His word…so there is no doubt that this will all work out in the end for the Jews.

Every God-fearing person will accept the Messiah when he comes around.

I hope so. They didn't the first time.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7749 Location: Petah Tikva

When he comes around of course, but what about today? If I did after I wrote this post, do you believe I would go to hell?

The Russian · Joined: 27 Oct 2006 Posts: 384 Location: Buffalo, NY

May I dare as an atheist to bud in... I'm formerly jewish and have rabbinic blood in the family from both sides, and remain an ethnic jew no matter what I believe. During the process of my personal realizations I actually spoke to a rabbi that came to my university to talk, and this is what he explained to me through a series of questions...

Jesus was no the jewish messiah, he was religious and moral teacher, but he blasphemed when he declared himself the son of Yahweh and asked his followers to believe in him as such.

When I asked about how could the belief in Jesus become so big while not being the son of god and the true prophet... he side-stepped the question and replied, "why dont you ask a christian priest how could Muhammad attain such a following and not be the true prophet".

All I can speak from is my personal understanding of the things I was told while making my decision... and even though I have relegated religious belief to the "superstition" section of my mind, it is not to say I don't still stumble on contradictions in those who believe in either way.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

The Russian wrote: When I asked about how could the belief in Jesus become so big while not being the son of god and the true prophet... he side-stepped the question and replied, "why dont you ask a christian priest how could Muhammad attain such a following and not be the true prophet".

He didn't sidestep it, he just answered it in a Jewish way -- with another question. :lol:

If you still want an answer, I'd be happy to answer for you, though I am no Rabbi.

Christianity is a very convenient religion, in that it borrows the spiritual and theological appeal of the Torah, but throws away the requirements and responsibilities that come along with it.

People have always had a yearning to connect with the Divine, with G-d. But the terms on which G-d allows us to connect to Him, according to the Torah, are demanding. Christianity allows people to connect to G-d in an easier fashion. Obviously that carries mass appeal.

John · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:40 pm Post subject:

superskippy wrote: When he comes around of course, but what about today? If I did after I wrote this post, do you believe I would go to hell?

If you died after you wrote this post and have completely rejected the Holy Spirit pulling on your heart to accept what Messiah did for you? Yeah...I believe the Bible says you'll die in your sin.

I really hope to God that you'd at least pray about it. I would rather have a beer with you on the other side.

John · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 9:51 pm Post subject:

Duchifas wrote: The Russian wrote: When I asked about how could the belief in Jesus become so big while not being the son of god and the true prophet... he side-stepped the question and replied, "why dont you ask a christian priest how could Muhammad attain such a following and not be the true prophet".

He didn't sidestep it, he just answered it in a Jewish way -- with another question. :lol:

If you still want an answer, I'd be happy to answer for you, though I am no Rabbi.

Christianity is a very convenient religion, in that it borrows the spiritual and theological appeal of the Torah, but throws away the requirements and responsibilities that come along with it.

People have always had a yearning to connect with the Divine, with G-d. But the terms on which G-d allows us to connect to Him, according to the Torah, are demanding. Christianity allows people to connect to G-d in an easier fashion. Obviously that carries mass appeal.

Don't be so quick about that assumption. Christianity carries a higher moral standard. You are held responsible for your thoughts as much as your actions. Actions are only the fruit of what really going on inside...thoughts.

You might think it's harder to keep a strict diet of not eating pork and what not...but the Christian understands this on a spiritual level and tries to avoid spiritual pork, like gossip, lustful fantasies, resenting authority, wishing revenge, that kind of thing.

A wise Rabbi once said that food is taken in and eliminated through the digestive system, but it is the heart of the man that reveals his defilement. For what good is it if a man restrains from pork and his heart is full of evil thoughts, is this man truly ritually clean?

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: The Russian wrote: When I asked about how could the belief in Jesus become so big while not being the son of god and the true prophet... he side-stepped the question and replied, "why dont you ask a christian priest how could Muhammad attain such a following and not be the true prophet".

He didn't sidestep it, he just answered it in a Jewish way -- with another question. :lol:

If you still want an answer, I'd be happy to answer for you, though I am no Rabbi.

Christianity is a very convenient religion, in that it borrows the spiritual and theological appeal of the Torah, but throws away the requirements and responsibilities that come along with it.

People have always had a yearning to connect with the Divine, with G-d. But the terms on which G-d allows us to connect to Him, according to the Torah, are demanding. Christianity allows people to connect to G-d in an easier fashion. Obviously that carries mass appeal.

Don't be so quick about that assumption. Christianity carries a higher moral standard. You are held responsible for your thoughts as much as your actions. Actions are only the fruit of what really going on inside...thoughts.

You might think it's harder to keep a strict diet of not eating pork and what not...but the Christian understands this on a spiritual level and tries to avoid spiritual pork, like gossip, lustful fantasies, resenting authority, wishing revenge, that kind of thing.

A wise Rabbi once said that food is taken in and eliminated through the digestive system, but it is the heart of the man that reveals his defilement. For what good is it if a man restrains from pork and his heart is full of evil thoughts, is this man truly ritually clean?

Uh, newsflash. The bolded parts are a pretty good summary of Judaism.

John · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:12 pm Post subject:

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: The Russian wrote: When I asked about how could the belief in Jesus become so big while not being the son of god and the true prophet... he side-stepped the question and replied, "why dont you ask a christian priest how could Muhammad attain such a following and not be the true prophet".

He didn't sidestep it, he just answered it in a Jewish way -- with another question. :lol:

If you still want an answer, I'd be happy to answer for you, though I am no Rabbi.

Christianity is a very convenient religion, in that it borrows the spiritual and theological appeal of the Torah, but throws away the requirements and responsibilities that come along with it.

People have always had a yearning to connect with the Divine, with G-d. But the terms on which G-d allows us to connect to Him, according to the Torah, are demanding. Christianity allows people to connect to G-d in an easier fashion. Obviously that carries mass appeal.

Don't be so quick about that assumption. Christianity carries a higher moral standard. You are held responsible for your thoughts as much as your actions. Actions are only the fruit of what really going on inside...thoughts.

You might think it's harder to keep a strict diet of not eating pork and what not...but the Christian understands this on a spiritual level and tries to avoid spiritual pork, like gossip, lustful fantasies, resenting authority, wishing revenge, that kind of thing.

A wise Rabbi once said that food is taken in and eliminated through the digestive system, but it is the heart of the man that reveals his defilement. For what good is it if a man restrains from pork and his heart is full of evil thoughts, is this man truly ritually clean?

Uh, newsflash. The bolded parts are a pretty good summary of Judaism.

Hmm. As it is Christianity. How can you say that we do not obey the "Law" when the intent of the Law is fulfilled?

John · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:25 pm Post subject:

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: The Russian wrote: When I asked about how could the belief in Jesus become so big while not being the son of god and the true prophet... he side-stepped the question and replied, "why dont you ask a christian priest how could Muhammad attain such a following and not be the true prophet".

He didn't sidestep it, he just answered it in a Jewish way -- with another question. :lol:

If you still want an answer, I'd be happy to answer for you, though I am no Rabbi.

Christianity is a very convenient religion, in that it borrows the spiritual and theological appeal of the Torah, but throws away the requirements and responsibilities that come along with it.

People have always had a yearning to connect with the Divine, with G-d. But the terms on which G-d allows us to connect to Him, according to the Torah, are demanding. Christianity allows people to connect to G-d in an easier fashion. Obviously that carries mass appeal.

Don't be so quick about that assumption. Christianity carries a higher moral standard. You are held responsible for your thoughts as much as your actions. Actions are only the fruit of what really going on inside...thoughts.

You might think it's harder to keep a strict diet of not eating pork and what not...but the Christian understands this on a spiritual level and tries to avoid spiritual pork, like gossip, lustful fantasies, resenting authority, wishing revenge, that kind of thing.

A wise Rabbi once said that food is taken in and eliminated through the digestive system, but it is the heart of the man that reveals his defilement. For what good is it if a man restrains from pork and his heart is full of evil thoughts, is this man truly ritually clean?

Uh, newsflash. The bolded parts are a pretty good summary of Judaism.

Hmm. As it is Christianity. How can you say that we do not obey the "Law" when the intent of the Law is fulfilled?

You see...Duchifas...the point that Christianity tries to make about the whole Kosher thing…isn't that we should all run out and fill our bellies with pork and shrimp. It's that we should think that it is these outwardly acts that cleanses our soul. That it is easy to fool yourself into thinking you're clean by going through the motions and neglecting the real matter. That all these ritual acts mean nothing if your heart is full of evil thoughts and wishes. We focus on the heart first and THEN the stomach will follow. The mature Christian will stray away from unclean food and keep the temple of his body clean.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Hmm. As it is Christianity. How can you say that we do not obey the "Law" when the intent of the Law is fulfilled?

Look, John, I deal with lawyers all the time. They really know how to use language to convey concepts that are exactly the opposite from reality, ok? But listening to them, it is so believable. So you can say fullfilled, it doesn't fool me.

I really don't care what word you want to use. Fullfilled? Fine. Completed? Even better. If you want to pick 10 other words that sound pretty, go ahead. It won't change anything. The fact of the matter is that the most appropriate word to describe what NT effectively did to the OT laws is CANCELED. Or nullified. Or abandoned. Ok?

If it walks like a duck, it's a freaking duck.

John · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:44 pm Post subject:

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Hmm. As it is Christianity. How can you say that we do not obey the "Law" when the intent of the Law is fulfilled?

Look, John, I deal with lawyers all the time. They really know how to use language to convey concepts that are exactly the opposite from reality, ok? But listening to them, it is so believable. So you can say fullfilled, it doesn't fool me.

I really don't care what word you want to use. Fullfilled? Fine. Completed? Even better. If you want to pick 10 other words that sound pretty, go ahead. It won't change anything. The fact of the matter is that the most appropriate word to describe what NT effectively did to the OT laws is CANCELED. Or nullified. Or abandoned. Ok?

If it walks like a duck, it's a freaking duck.

I'm not a lawyer. I'm just a regular guy.

What you're saying is that the OT laws are really just a bunch of rituals that don't really mean anything. Because IF they really do MEAN something...and what they MEAN is being fulfilled..or "completed" as you put it...then how can you say that the NT nullified the OT? No...you're wrong...it fulfilled the OT. I'm sorry if that rocks your little world, but that is the truth of the matter.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Hmm. As it is Christianity. How can you say that we do not obey the "Law" when the intent of the Law is fulfilled?

Look, John, I deal with lawyers all the time. They really know how to use language to convey concepts that are exactly the opposite from reality, ok? But listening to them, it is so believable. So you can say fullfilled, it doesn't fool me.

I really don't care what word you want to use. Fullfilled? Fine. Completed? Even better. If you want to pick 10 other words that sound pretty, go ahead. It won't change anything. The fact of the matter is that the most appropriate word to describe what NT effectively did to the OT laws is CANCELED. Or nullified. Or abandoned. Ok?

If it walks like a duck, it's a freaking duck.

I'm not a lawyer. I'm just a regular guy.

What you're saying is that the OT laws are really just a bunch of rituals that don't really mean anything. Because IF they really do MEAN something...and what they MEAN is being fulfilled..or "completed" as you put it...then how can you say that the NT nullified the OT? No...you're wrong...it fulfilled the OT. I'm sorry if that rocks your little world, but that is the truth of the matter.

Man, you'll grab on to anything today, won't you? :)

I was speaking from your perspective. Obviously, from my perspective, the NT "attempts" to nullify the OT laws. And just as obviously, from my perspective, that attempt carries zero meaning.

John · Posted: Sat Nov 25, 2006 10:56 pm Post subject:

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Hmm. As it is Christianity. How can you say that we do not obey the "Law" when the intent of the Law is fulfilled?

Look, John, I deal with lawyers all the time. They really know how to use language to convey concepts that are exactly the opposite from reality, ok? But listening to them, it is so believable. So you can say fullfilled, it doesn't fool me.

I really don't care what word you want to use. Fullfilled? Fine. Completed? Even better. If you want to pick 10 other words that sound pretty, go ahead. It won't change anything. The fact of the matter is that the most appropriate word to describe what NT effectively did to the OT laws is CANCELED. Or nullified. Or abandoned. Ok?

If it walks like a duck, it's a freaking duck.

I'm not a lawyer. I'm just a regular guy.

What you're saying is that the OT laws are really just a bunch of rituals that don't really mean anything. Because IF they really do MEAN something...and what they MEAN is being fulfilled..or "completed" as you put it...then how can you say that the NT nullified the OT? No...you're wrong...it fulfilled the OT. I'm sorry if that rocks your little world, but that is the truth of the matter.

Man, you'll grab on to anything today, won't you? :)

I was speaking from your perspective. Obviously, from my perspective, the NT "attempts" to nullify the OT laws. And just as obviously, from my perspective, that attempt carries zero meaning.

A tree should be judged by it's fruit.

Not the type of fertilizer used. :-D

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: A tree should be judged by it's fruit.

Not the type of fertilizer used. :-D

My sentiments exactly.

John · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 1:33 am Post subject:

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: A tree should be judged by it's fruit.

Not the type of fertilizer used. :-D

My sentiments exactly.

Friend to friend.

What exactly do you think this:

says about your fruit?

I agree with you that the Palestinians are wrong...but are we to fight hatred with hatred? Didn’t you tell me earlier that to practice Judaism is to practice love and to cleanse your heart of all evil thoughts? Hatred, anger, revenge, bitterness, all of these things are not signs of good fruit.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: A tree should be judged by it's fruit.

Not the type of fertilizer used. :-D

My sentiments exactly.

Friend to friend.

What exactly do you think this:

says about your fruit?

I agree with you that the Palestinians are wrong...but are we to fight hatred with hatred? Didn’t you tell me earlier that to practice Judaism is to practice love and to cleanse your heart of all evil thoughts? Hatred, anger, revenge, bitterness, all of these things are not signs of good fruit.

Can you please explain the connection you are trying to make between a political cartoon and my alleged vengefulness, bitterness and and hatred? I am certainly missing it.

Speaking about "bitterness," it appears to me that this word exactly describes the feelings you expressed in the other thread. How's that working out for you?

Nathyn · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 7341 Location: The Great Satan

John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Hmm. As it is Christianity. How can you say that we do not obey the "Law" when the intent of the Law is fulfilled?

Look, John, I deal with lawyers all the time. They really know how to use language to convey concepts that are exactly the opposite from reality, ok? But listening to them, it is so believable. So you can say fullfilled, it doesn't fool me.

I really don't care what word you want to use. Fullfilled? Fine. Completed? Even better. If you want to pick 10 other words that sound pretty, go ahead. It won't change anything. The fact of the matter is that the most appropriate word to describe what NT effectively did to the OT laws is CANCELED. Or nullified. Or abandoned. Ok?

If it walks like a duck, it's a freaking duck.

I'm not a lawyer. I'm just a regular guy.

What you're saying is that the OT laws are really just a bunch of rituals that don't really mean anything. Because IF they really do MEAN something...and what they MEAN is being fulfilled..or "completed" as you put it...then how can you say that the NT nullified the OT? No...you're wrong...it fulfilled the OT. I'm sorry if that rocks your little world, but that is the truth of the matter.

Man, you'll grab on to anything today, won't you? :)

I was speaking from your perspective. Obviously, from my perspective, the NT "attempts" to nullify the OT laws. And just as obviously, from my perspective, that attempt carries zero meaning.

A tree should be judged by it's fruit.

Not the type of fertilizer used. :-D
OK, let's see... Jews have historically been one of the most peaceful people on Earth. Before Israel, Jews hadn't had any kind of war in almost 2,000 years. Even in terms of the historical wars involving the Jews, the Jews defended themselves against the Romans and during the Crusades, the Jews defended themselves against Christians and Muslims.

Jews tend to have a higher socioeconomic status in most cultures, including western countries. Despite facing anti-semitism, in America (and probably western Europe) they have a higher socioeconomic status than even whites. As such, they have contributed to science in a manner particularly disproportionate to their size. A history professor of mine once named what he thought were the four most influential scholars of modern history. And three out of four of them (Marx, Freud, and Einstein) were Jews. On IQ tests, Jews tend to score higher than other groups.

Now, compare this to the brutal and inhumane history of Christianity and Islam, up until the present day, when the Holocaust was established for the sake of Hitler's radical Christian views (rather prevalent among Catholics of his day) and Muslims carry out acts of terrorism, largely out of anti-semitism.

Even if you judge each religion by the consequences of its existence, Judaism still wins.

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: A tree should be judged by it's fruit.

Not the type of fertilizer used. :-D

My sentiments exactly.

Friend to friend.

What exactly do you think this:

says about your fruit?

I agree with you that the Palestinians are wrong...but are we to fight hatred with hatred? Didn’t you tell me earlier that to practice Judaism is to practice love and to cleanse your heart of all evil thoughts? Hatred, anger, revenge, bitterness, all of these things are not signs of good fruit.

Can you please explain the connection you are trying to make between a political cartoon and my alleged vengefulness, bitterness and and hatred? I am certainly missing it.

Speaking about "bitterness," it appears to me that this word exactly describes the feelings you expressed in the other thread. How's that working out for you?
Be honest with yourself. Even if you aren't angry or bitter, you're at least coming as as being pretty sharp-tongued and abrasive.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

Nathyn wrote: A history professor of mine once named what he thought were the four most influential scholars of modern history. And three out of four of them (Marx, Freud, and Einstein) were Jews.

Marx was a "scholar?" :rotf: Are we talking about Karl? Or some other Marx that I am not aware of....?

John · Posted: Sun Nov 26, 2006 10:47 am Post subject:

Duchifas wrote: John wrote: Duchifas wrote: John wrote: A tree should be judged by it's fruit.

Not the type of fertilizer used. :-D

My sentiments exactly.

Friend to friend.

What exactly do you think this:

says about your fruit?

I agree with you that the Palestinians are wrong...but are we to fight hatred with hatred? Didn’t you tell me earlier that to practice Judaism is to practice love and to cleanse your heart of all evil thoughts? Hatred, anger, revenge, bitterness, all of these things are not signs of good fruit.

Can you please explain the connection you are trying to make between a political cartoon and my alleged vengefulness, bitterness and and hatred? I am certainly missing it.

Speaking about "bitterness," it appears to me that this word exactly describes the feelings you expressed in the other thread. How's that working out for you?

You can't see how a Palestinian would see those cartoons as a jab in the ribs?

I'm really not bitter with you Duchifas....I was just trying to explain to you one of the reasons why so many Gentiles don't care for Jews.

News Flash!!! I so happen to like Jews very much. Israel is numero uno in the places I want to visit....I'd even move there to live if I knew of a way.