Political Crossfire Forums

Moracca · Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 2821 Location: ar-Raba, KOM

Proton wrote: There is no discrimination when freedom is increased. You have the right not to go down a road, but the freedom to go down to.
Discrimination is when you don't have the right to go down the road.

Earn your freedom them. If you earn it people like me will be forced to accept it. Until then I will fight tooth and nail against gay marriage.

The American people continue to speak when given the choice about gay marriage. What is it...40 states that have said "no" so far?

Fionn mac Cumhaill · Joined: 01 Nov 2006 Posts: 246

Proton wrote: There is no discrimination when freedom is increased. You have the right not to go down a road, but the freedom to go down to.
Discrimination is when you don't have the right to go down the road.

I wonder why many fear having the right to go gay.
Maybe the only thing stopping them now is their respect for the law, or their religion.

I've always wondered about people who say homosexuality is a choice, because I don't remember having to decide whether or not to like females. If you had to weigh the pros and the cons and then make a decision, you're probably gay, regardless of the choice you made.

ontheyslay · Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 274 Location: Michigan

Moracca wrote: ontheyslay wrote: Moracca wrote: Proton wrote: Quote: So I guess the real question is would it be better to live in a society in which gays are legally discrimnated against, or one where they are not?

I suppose you'll let your God decide that for you.
Wrong question. Because personal prefferance is not nesseserily the moral or free one. I would be better off by stealing "his" money as per the above example. This doesn't make it right.

Everyone must be free, as long as it doesn't violate someone else's freedom. It's that simple, and philosphers were saying that (but not heard) since ancient Greek times.
He must be free to achieve the best, according to his skills and abilities, and live as happy as he can. You know, pursuit of happiness and all that?

And of course, wither God tells me to steal his money or not is irrelevant. If He wants it, He can come down here and take it.

Look, I'm not totally against gay marriage. If a lesbian and a gay man want to get married I wish them all the best. :lol:

But seriously, gays have access to everything married straights do under different titles except when it comes to taxes.

So it's seperate but equal. I don't know my American history all that well, but that turned out OK didn't it?

Sorry, the gays of today aren't the blacks of yesterday. Nice try. If you want to continue down that road I'd like to see your views on incest marriages. Perhaps grandfather who want to marry their 12 year-old grandsons. You gonna deny them their "rights" as well?

Who said gays were blacks? Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of if you are black or gay.

So gays getting married is like a 65 year old man marrying a 12 year old? I'm pretty sure that's illegal. But I certainly don't have a problem with someone marrying their daughter as long as they are of legal age and consentual. I may not agree with it, but I certainly don't see how it hurts anyone.

Proton · Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 1769 Location: Evil European

Quote: Sorry, the gays of today aren't the blacks of yesterday. Nice try. If you want to continue down that road I'd like to see your views on incest marriages. Perhaps grandfather who want to marry their 12 year-old grandsons. You gonna deny them their "rights" as well?
Different subjects.

Association of gay marriage, with something different. A rhetoric tactic again, but not equivelant, therefore not relevant.

Incests are interesting, but risk genetic damage to the offspring, mind you that indeed this is the only reason I would ban them between siblings. (and maybe I would just ban procreation insteed). Incest between parents and child is clearly abuse.

Pedophilia is again not consenting, (or has been extensive brainwashing).

As a result either act is either reducing/ violating the freedom for someone and allowing them, is not increasing freedom.

Unlike gay marriage, which is between two "soulmates" consenting adults,,, of the same sex.

ontheyslay · Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 274 Location: Michigan

Moracca wrote: Proton wrote: There is no discrimination when freedom is increased. You have the right not to go down a road, but the freedom to go down to.
Discrimination is when you don't have the right to go down the road.

Earn your freedom them. If you earn it people like me will be forced to accept it. Until then I will fight tooth and nail against gay marriage.

The American people continue to speak when given the choice about gay marriage. What is it...40 states that have said "no" so far?
Gays need to earn the right to marry? How does that happen exactly?

dtwizzy2k5 · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 467

Moracca's argument doesnt make any sense. Gays are discriminated and treated unequally.
Observe:

A. A man is allowed to marry a woman
B. A woman is NOT allowed to marry a woman

See the inequality?

Moracca · Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 2821 Location: ar-Raba, KOM

ontheyslay wrote: Moracca wrote: ontheyslay wrote: Moracca wrote: Proton wrote: Quote: So I guess the real question is would it be better to live in a society in which gays are legally discrimnated against, or one where they are not?

I suppose you'll let your God decide that for you.
Wrong question. Because personal prefferance is not nesseserily the moral or free one. I would be better off by stealing "his" money as per the above example. This doesn't make it right.

Everyone must be free, as long as it doesn't violate someone else's freedom. It's that simple, and philosphers were saying that (but not heard) since ancient Greek times.
He must be free to achieve the best, according to his skills and abilities, and live as happy as he can. You know, pursuit of happiness and all that?

And of course, wither God tells me to steal his money or not is irrelevant. If He wants it, He can come down here and take it.

Look, I'm not totally against gay marriage. If a lesbian and a gay man want to get married I wish them all the best. :lol:

But seriously, gays have access to everything married straights do under different titles except when it comes to taxes.

So it's seperate but equal. I don't know my American history all that well, but that turned out OK didn't it?

Sorry, the gays of today aren't the blacks of yesterday. Nice try. If you want to continue down that road I'd like to see your views on incest marriages. Perhaps grandfather who want to marry their 12 year-old grandsons. You gonna deny them their "rights" as well?

Who said gays were blacks? Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of if you are black or gay.

So gays getting married is like a 65 year old man marrying a 12 year old? I'm pretty sure that's illegal. But I certainly don't have a problem with someone marrying their daughter as long as they are of legal age and consentual. I may not agree with it, but I certainly don't see how it hurts anyone.

So you mention "separate but equal" in regards to America's past and then ask me why I mention blacks? Your a piece of work.

ontheyslay wrote: But I certainly don't have a problem with someone marrying their daughter as long as they are of legal age and consentual.

That's it...discussions over. Your a little too far out there in left field for me.

And people wonder why there is social decay in America?

Proton · Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 1769 Location: Evil European

Quote: Earn your freedom them. If you earn it people like me will be forced to accept it. Until then I will fight tooth and nail against gay marriage.

The American people continue to speak when given the choice about gay marriage. What is it...40 states that have said "no" so far?
So you have been reduced to the position of:

No sense.
No argument.
Not freedom.
Not human respecting.

And your only argument basically is "well, I am evil and want to stop you"?

WHO CARES then. And the Muslims might cover the women faces. And their entire mankind might have once believed that earth was flat, or witches existed.

Fakkem. Freedom, Logic and the Happiness (within their freedom) of Humans is paramount. Even if the states passed it in the constitution, then the battle would not be over, but would simply be about erasing it. And I promise, as a very straight male, that the battle will never be over as well. 8:)

ontheyslay · Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 274 Location: Michigan

Moracca wrote: ontheyslay wrote: Moracca wrote: ontheyslay wrote: Moracca wrote: Proton wrote: Quote: So I guess the real question is would it be better to live in a society in which gays are legally discrimnated against, or one where they are not?

I suppose you'll let your God decide that for you.
Wrong question. Because personal prefferance is not nesseserily the moral or free one. I would be better off by stealing "his" money as per the above example. This doesn't make it right.

Everyone must be free, as long as it doesn't violate someone else's freedom. It's that simple, and philosphers were saying that (but not heard) since ancient Greek times.
He must be free to achieve the best, according to his skills and abilities, and live as happy as he can. You know, pursuit of happiness and all that?

And of course, wither God tells me to steal his money or not is irrelevant. If He wants it, He can come down here and take it.

Look, I'm not totally against gay marriage. If a lesbian and a gay man want to get married I wish them all the best. :lol:

But seriously, gays have access to everything married straights do under different titles except when it comes to taxes.

So it's seperate but equal. I don't know my American history all that well, but that turned out OK didn't it?

Sorry, the gays of today aren't the blacks of yesterday. Nice try. If you want to continue down that road I'd like to see your views on incest marriages. Perhaps grandfather who want to marry their 12 year-old grandsons. You gonna deny them their "rights" as well?

Who said gays were blacks? Discrimination is discrimination, regardless of if you are black or gay.

So gays getting married is like a 65 year old man marrying a 12 year old? I'm pretty sure that's illegal. But I certainly don't have a problem with someone marrying their daughter as long as they are of legal age and consentual. I may not agree with it, but I certainly don't see how it hurts anyone.

So you mention "separate but equal" in regards to America's past and then ask me why I mention blacks? Your a piece of work.

ontheyslay wrote: But I certainly don't have a problem with someone marrying their daughter as long as they are of legal age and consentual.

That's it...discussions over. Your a little too far out there in left field for me.

And people wonder why there is social decay in America?

Are you going to result to insults or are you going to give me reasons why I am wrong?

Proton · Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 1769 Location: Evil European

Don't forget and the other side though:
Quote: Different subjects.

Association of gay marriage, with something different. A rhetoric tactic again, but not equivelant, therefore not relevant.

Incests are interesting, but risk genetic damage to the offspring, mind you that indeed this is the only reason I would ban them between siblings. (and maybe I would just ban procreation insteed). Incest between parents and child is clearly abuse belonging to pedophilia.

Now, as far as pedophilia goes, it is not consenting, or extensive brainwashing has taken place. And the act of brainwashing is a criminal act all of it's own.

As a result either act is either reducing/ violating the freedom for someone and allowing them, is not increasing freedom.

Unlike gay marriage, which is between two "soulmates" consenting adults,,, of the same sex.

Moracca · Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 2821 Location: ar-Raba, KOM

Those of you who think of gay marriage as okay are example of the social decline in the West. The social decay and rot that we see on a daily basis.

I picking up more and more of you the more that I post, I can't reply to all of you at one time and one of you has completely lost it and will be the first to earn a quote in my signature.

Anyway, I'd advocate a system where the government got out of marriage and based benefits on citizenship, not sexual orientation or marital status.

soldierofsoul · Joined: 19 Nov 2006 Posts: 256 Location: Fl

Saracen wrote: soldierofsoul wrote: That is another thing your religion comes before freedom, not saying anything to you, you can have your personal beliefs, but the countries in the Middle East need change, and if they don't wan't to, then America will make them change...

No, it doesn't. Religion comes with freedom. Yes, the MidEast needs change, and it is changing. America has no right to change it forcefully, as it has no moral position to do so.

Quote: Well I guess the thousands of people your muslim brotherin' killed means nothing?

Back before 1948? Please, read what I said again before you come up with a half-assed response.

Ok well can you tell me Muslims will change without force, and can you tell we muslims have changed...please tell we I would love to know.

And as with the thousands of people your people have killed, let me say this, is Israel at fought for the suicide bombings your brother-in have done, or is it all Israels fault(the great Satan).

ontheyslay · Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 274 Location: Michigan

Moracca wrote: Those of you who think of gay marriage as okay are example of the social decline in the West. The social decay and rot that we see on a daily basis.

I picking up more and more of you the more that I post, I can't reply to all of you at one time and one of you has completely lost it and will be the first to earn a quote in my signature.

Anyway, I'd advocate a system where the government got out of marriage and based benefits on citizenship, not sexual orientation or marital status.

So what kind of drastic social meltdown would happen if gays got married?

soldierofsoul · Joined: 19 Nov 2006 Posts: 256 Location: Fl

Saracen wrote: soldierofsoul wrote: That is another thing your religion comes before freedom, not saying anything to you, you can have your personal beliefs, but the countries in the Middle East need change, and if they don't wan't to, then America will make them change...

No, it doesn't. Religion comes with freedom. Yes, the MidEast needs change, and it is changing. America has no right to change it forcefully, as it has no moral position to do so.

Quote: Well I guess the thousands of people your muslim brotherin' killed means nothing?

Back before 1948? Please, read what I said again before you come up with a half-assed response.

Also how does religion come with freedom, democracy means the freedom of religion, does not your brotherin' agree with this, if not, then why not?

Proton · Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 1769 Location: Evil European

Quote: Those of you who think of gay marriage as okay are example of the social decline in the West. The social decay and rot that we see on a daily basis.
Blah blah blah, blah blah.

The West in reality stands in it's highest point as far as technology, and the quality of life goes. WTF is "social" and how does it benefit me? Or anyone if more people are better off without it?

iGeneration babyeh!

Your ilk has been saying that since the ancient sumerians (seriously. There has been stone writings found of someone complaining about the "moral" decay of society)

Additionally, non-free or illogical societies cannot claim morality. For all we know, we are becoming more moral than we have ever been. (by smiting out incorrect rules and behaviors with no effect, other than to cause sadness and pain)

callous · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:02 pm Post subject:

ontheyslay wrote: Moracca wrote: Those of you who think of gay marriage as okay are example of the social decline in the West. The social decay and rot that we see on a daily basis.

I picking up more and more of you the more that I post, I can't reply to all of you at one time and one of you has completely lost it and will be the first to earn a quote in my signature.

Anyway, I'd advocate a system where the government got out of marriage and based benefits on citizenship, not sexual orientation or marital status.

So what kind of drastic social meltdown would happen if gays got married?

grooms and party-planners would have something to talk about....

the horror....

ontheyslay · Joined: 26 Oct 2006 Posts: 274 Location: Michigan

callous wrote: ontheyslay wrote: Moracca wrote: Those of you who think of gay marriage as okay are example of the social decline in the West. The social decay and rot that we see on a daily basis.

I picking up more and more of you the more that I post, I can't reply to all of you at one time and one of you has completely lost it and will be the first to earn a quote in my signature.

Anyway, I'd advocate a system where the government got out of marriage and based benefits on citizenship, not sexual orientation or marital status.

So what kind of drastic social meltdown would happen if gays got married?

grooms and party-planners would have something to talk about....

the horror....

Well, that certainly can't be allowed to happen.

callous · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:06 pm Post subject:

ontheyslay wrote: callous wrote: ontheyslay wrote: Moracca wrote: Those of you who think of gay marriage as okay are example of the social decline in the West. The social decay and rot that we see on a daily basis.

I picking up more and more of you the more that I post, I can't reply to all of you at one time and one of you has completely lost it and will be the first to earn a quote in my signature.

Anyway, I'd advocate a system where the government got out of marriage and based benefits on citizenship, not sexual orientation or marital status.

So what kind of drastic social meltdown would happen if gays got married?

grooms and party-planners would have something to talk about....

the horror....

Well, that certainly can't be allowed to happen.

hell no.

bob.appleyard · Joined: 15 Oct 2005 Posts: 7684 Location: Manchestar, innit

The internal characteristics of a polity have no bearing upon its external behaviour. See British Empire passim.

Moracca · Joined: 20 Jun 2006 Posts: 2821 Location: ar-Raba, KOM

ontheyslay wrote: Moracca wrote: Those of you who think of gay marriage as okay are example of the social decline in the West. The social decay and rot that we see on a daily basis.

I picking up more and more of you the more that I post, I can't reply to all of you at one time and one of you has completely lost it and will be the first to earn a quote in my signature.

Anyway, I'd advocate a system where the government got out of marriage and based benefits on citizenship, not sexual orientation or marital status.

So what kind of drastic social meltdown would happen if gays got married?

Part of the meltdown is the gays themselves and the further meltdown is them being considered "normal" by people such as yourself. Marriage or not the decay has already happened.