Political Crossfire Forums

[Nixon]

http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/790724.html

Good news for gay rights advocates.

Bad news for the left in general because it pretty much destroys their theory about Israel being a theocracy, ruled by crazed ultra-Orthodox fundamentalist Jews.

Good luck explaining this away.

[Timmytour]

Because its so important :roll:

[agentkgb]

Good for Israel. I don't agree with its government often but with this I definitely do.

[thefranzkafkafront]

Im confused how the israel palestianian conflict has anything to do with this.

Ahh i see its a non-sequitor dig, nice one nixon, top quality as usual.

[Proton]

Bad news for conservatives actually. It is well known that Israel is becoming more liberal for some time now, especially in the urban areas.

Also, and that's the difficult part for a conservative, it is possible to believe that the problem with Israel, is it's occupied areas (as per the UN creation of it or the Oslo agreements) and more-civlian-casualties-causing-than-the-terrorists, useless in preventing terror so far military offenses... but not any other part or aspect of Israel.

[callous]

Nixon wrote: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/790724.html

Good news for gay rights advocates.

Bad news for the left in general because it pretty much destroys their theory about Israel being theocracy, ruled by crazed ultra-Orthodox fundamentalist Jews.

Good luck explaining this away. Go ask your beloved Palestinians what their views are on gay marriage, then maybe you will wake up and realize you're on the wrong team. Not that I'm holding my breathe or anything.

What they allow their own people to do has nothing to do with their perspective towards Islam.

[soldierofsoul]

Nixon wrote: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/790724.html

Good news for gay rights advocates.

Bad news for the left in general because it pretty much destroys their theory about Israel being theocracy, ruled by crazed ultra-Orthodox fundamentalist Jews.

Good luck explaining this away. Go ask your beloved Palestinians what their views are on gay marriage, then maybe you will wake up and realize you're on the wrong team. Not that I'm holding my breathe or anything.

Well they did'nt exactly agree to gay rights, they said that if anyone had a marriage out of the country they would recognize it, I still feel that Gay marriage is a downfall for human kind and the sanctity of marriage, but what do I know, Israel will feel the repercussions

[Moracca]

This is going to be difficult considering the fact that both marriage and death ceremonies on Israel are performed by the Dati.

There is a strict separation between church and state in Israel. Often time, non-religious Jews have to travel to Cyprus in order to marry because the Dati won't marry them. The Israeli government doesn't perform civil marriages like here in the US. However, the Israeli government does recognize the marriages of non-religious Jews who make aliyah to Israel.

[Saracen]

Whatever freedoms the Israeli government gives to its citizenry does not excuse the 50+ years of crimes against humanity that it has committed.

[Proton]

Some conservatives, believe sympathy for the palestinians, is sympathy for Islam or their conservatives you see.
As an atheist, Islam is actually nothing more than some other bullcrap. And nothing would please me more than seeing the middle east, "French revolutionize" their imams, unite their borders in a secular state, and seal their new beginning with launching an artificial gravity component for the ISS and elect the first lesbian president couple on Earth.

But that is something different.

[Proton]

Quote: Well they did'nt exactly agree to gay rights, they said that if anyone had a marriage out of the country they would recognize it, I still feel that Gay marriage is a downfall for human kind and the sanctity of marriage, but what do I know, Israel will feel the repercussions
Or it may survive, some will go with the different sex, some will not. And history will go on, with more Ipods and happy gays around.

[sLiPpY]

Nixon wrote: http://haaretz.com/hasen/spages/790724.html

Good news for gay rights advocates.

Bad news for the left in general because it pretty much destroys their theory about Israel being theocracy, ruled by crazed ultra-Orthodox fundamentalist Jews.

Good luck explaining this away. Go ask your beloved Palestinians what their views are on gay marriage, then maybe you will wake up and realize you're on the wrong team. Not that I'm holding my breathe or anything.

:gdgf: Nixon. Don't you realize that you've only proven that the Robertsons and the family values tribe are on the wrong side "once again!"

There you folks go off supporting "god's chosen gay people" and love it when "god's chosen gay people" run amok and kill all those "moral" Palestinians.

No wonder those Muslim folks think you have no values. :lol:

[Saracen]

Proton wrote: Some conservatives, believe sympathy for the palestinians, is sympathy for Islam or their conservatives you see.
As an atheist, Islam is actually nothing more than some other bullcrap. And nothing would please me more than seeing the middle east, "French revolutionize" their imams, unite their borders in a secular state, and seal their new beginning with launching an artificial gravity component for the ISS and elect the first lesbian president couple on Earth.

But that is something different.

That's not going to happen. Not because we don't want it to happen, but because it doesn't have to. The MidEast can reform itself, yes, I agree, and I want that, but I'm not willing to take out my religion just for the sake of it. That, of course, is for another topic.

[Moracca]

Proton wrote: Some conservatives, believe sympathy for the palestinians, is sympathy for Islam or their conservatives you see.
As an atheist, Islam is actually nothing more than some other bullcrap. And nothing would please me more than seeing the middle east, "French revolutionize" their imams, unite their borders in a secular state, and seal their new beginning with launching an artificial gravity component for the ISS and elect the first lesbian president couple on Earth.

But that is something different.

It takes more faith to believe that we were created by two big rocks that slammed into one another followed by a space dragon jizzing on the mess afterwards....or whatever the story is....than it does to have faith that there is some sort of higher power that created us. Atheism is bullcrap of the mut cattle kind.

[soldierofsoul]

Saracen wrote: Whatever freedoms the Israeli government gives to its citizenry does not excuse the 50+ years of crimes against humanity that it has committed.

Well I guess the thousands of people your muslim brotherin' killed means nothing?

[soldierofsoul]

Saracen wrote: Proton wrote: Some conservatives, believe sympathy for the palestinians, is sympathy for Islam or their conservatives you see.
As an atheist, Islam is actually nothing more than some other bullcrap. And nothing would please me more than seeing the middle east, "French revolutionize" their imams, unite their borders in a secular state, and seal their new beginning with launching an artificial gravity component for the ISS and elect the first lesbian president couple on Earth.

But that is something different.

That's not going to happen. Not because we don't want it to happen, but because it doesn't have to. The MidEast can reform itself, yes, I agree, and I want that, but I'm not willing to take out my religion just for the sake of it. That, of course, is for another topic.

That is another thing your religion comes before freedom, not saying anything to you, you can have your personal beliefs, but the countries in the Middle East need change, and if they don't wan't to, then America will make them change...

[Proton]

Quote: It takes more faith to believe that we were created by two big rocks that slammed into one another followed by a space dragon jizzing on the mess afterwards....or whatever the story is....than it does to have faith that there is some sort of higher power that created us. Atheism is bullcrap of the mut cattle kind.
We are seeing evolution happening in front of our eyes. (both mutation, and destruction of non beneficial mutations aka survival of the fittest) We are seeing star systems getting formed in front of our eyes (Orion belt side), none of those require belief, because they like... happen. As in... now.

Either process, does not require Gods around (or faith) and reduces the question to "where did all this matter (that makes star systems) came from?" Making as, the least accident creation of a God who did a big bang. Give it some time, we are in the process of creating powerful enough telescopes (remember that the deeper you look, the earlier in the universe you see) to "see" the Big Bang in order to begin studying it better.

But in the process of Curiosity and Questioning. We also discover science derived technology. Knowledge of evolution, genetics etc, will give us drugs, cures, highlighted the DNA which in turn became a new research field and so on. Telescopes are part of optics, which play with light, which in order to understand it better led to relativity, which is close enough with electromagnetism, which has practical applications for electronics and so on.

Simply put, that process grands as, actual knowledge about the structure of the universe, and power. And so when you are just praying, and thinking that this is some "faith", let's just say...

...that if what caused those nuclear bombs in Hiroshima to "work", and those reactors to power 90% of France, is "faith" in atomic physics. It appears to be fking working.

[Moracca]

Proton wrote: Quote: It takes more faith to believe that we were created by two big rocks that slammed into one another followed by a space dragon jizzing on the mess afterwards....or whatever the story is....than it does to have faith that there is some sort of higher power that created us. Atheism is bullcrap of the mut cattle kind.
We are seeing evolution happening in front of our eyes. (both mutation, and destruction of non beneficial mutations aka survival of the fittest) We are seeing star systems getting formed in front of our eyes (Orion belt side), none of those require belief, because they like... happen. As in... now.

Either process, does not require Gods around (or faith) and reduces the question to "where did all this matter (that makes star systems) came from?" Making as, the least accident creation of a God who did a big bang. Give it some time, we are in the process of creating powerful enough telescopes (remember that the deeper you look, the earlier in the universe you see) to "see" the Big Bang in order to begin studying it better.

But in the process of Curiosity and Questioning. We also discover science derived technology. Knowledge of evolution, genetics etc, will give us drugs, cures, highlighted the DNA which in turn became a new research field and so on. Telescopes are part of optics, which play with light, which in order to understand it better led to relativity, which is close enough with electromagnetism, which has practical applications for electronics and so on.

Simply put, that process grands as, actual knowledge about the structure of the universe, and power. And so when you are just praying, and thinking that this is some "faith", let's just say...

...that if what caused those nuclear bombs in Hiroshima to "work", and those reactors to power 90% of France, is "faith" in atomic physics. It appears to be fking working.

Thanks for the essay, but you simply cannot prove that there is no God and cannot prove where everything started from. Just as I cannot prove that there is a God or that you are wrong in your beliefs.

You trip the wire when you dismiss the beliefs of others simply as "bullcrap".

[ontheyslay]

That's good news. Maybe other countries will wake up and realize it's not the end of the world as we know it if gays get married.

[Proton]

Quote: Thanks for the essay, but you simply cannot prove that there is no God and cannot prove where everything started from. Just as I cannot prove that there is a God or that you are wrong in your beliefs.

You trip the wire when you dismiss the beliefs of others simply as "bullcrap".
I don't need to prove the non-existant. This is impossible and it's a philosophical fallacy called negative proof.
The same way the (ideal) justice system won't work until people bring proof that someone committed a crime, and proof that he is a criminal.

There are two ways of organising a society, top to bottom, and bottom to top. Top to bottom is when a structure/beliefs, comes out with everything already figured out, and gets imposed. That would be, say, a religion and it's holy scriptures. Bottom to top, is when we built on what is already know (eg, I am therefore I exist. 1=1 therefore 1+1=1+1 and you can shorten that to 2) and then we move to the next level. That would be science, and it is based on positive proof.

It is INSANE to organize a society top to bottom, because anyone can come up with anything. And I say that there is an invisible pink rabbit demanting sacrifices every hour, and that if we don't do that, the righteous won't go to heaven and the evil will reign. What is one person in front of eternal justice eh?

This is, to any "logical" person would be called delusion and insanity, yet strangely, if many people believed that it somehow becomes "religion" to be protected and respected unless you prove that an invisible pink rabbit demanding sacrifices, does not in fact exist.

Well, you know what. We have had plenty of that. We have had the aztecs sacrificing virgins for good crops. We have had the africans cutting clitoris off and pretenting that it is something other than what a sexually control freak obsessed priest came up with. We have had the ancient Jews killing the native "palestinians" because they were the "chosen" people. We have had Islam covering women faces god knows for what. We have had the Christians, excepting opressing science in Europe, except hunting imaginery witches (but making real murders) in Europe, except "Christianizing" the ancient greeks, the pagans, and the americas, even today not willing to erase the part of the bible that the crime for a boy to hug his boyfriend is death (even if that opinion lays low today in our evil, yet strangely most advanced than ever, secular west).

Well, we have had enough of that. I call it bullcrap. And it is time to organize our society on positive proofs. You either prove that, or I say you make it up.