Political Crossfire Forums

[Gaea]

I was listening to the radio the other day, as I often do and a guest was on who was talking about the first and second generation of young Pakistanis in London and how radical they were compared to their immigrant elders who were more tempered, moderate and spoke with calm deliberation and without hostility. The guest then went on to talk about how the young Muslims spoke of car bombings and war with all the enthusiam of a teenager playing a video game. They had no concept of the damage of what a real car bomb could do or all the carnage and heartbreak they cause. Yet they glorified the violent act while living in a suburb of London far removed from the realities of war and real oppression.

From my own experience, I find the same type of idealistic radicalism to be true among some of our own citizens as they call for more aggression and acts of war against Muslims who live thousands of miles away. All the while knowing that most of them have never met a Muslim face to face, let alone experienced the bloody carnage of war. Just as the young Muslims in London, many citizens in the US speak of war as if they were invincible and the concept of death, carnage and war is just as abstract as it is in a video game of Grand Theft Auto.

Then there are the radicals like Michele Malkin, Little Green Footballs, Gates of Vienna and Infidel Bloggers Alliance who knowingly use their hate rhetoric to inflame and incite the young and ignorant in the US. Are these people any different than the radical Mullahs who incite and inflame hate in the young Muslims in the ME, Britain or the EU? Frankly, I don't see any difference. Hate for the sake of hate is a cancer in all societies and should be denounced and shunned no matter where or who it is, be it Malkin or Mullah.

[Lumina]

Moot wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: We ALL have heard things similar to the following:

- There is no terrorism
- America and Israel are to blame for being in Arab lands
- A War on Terror cannot be won
- Fighting terrorism and extremism in Iraq instead of American soil is Bush propaganda
- Fighting terrorism only creates more terrorists
- Terrorists and their supporters only make up a few thousand people


So I will now show you how extremists who are not in Arab lands behave and use their freedom and free-speech.

Opinion: Europe has a lot to worry about - the EU is I think fragile at this time, but it seems there are some who are not happy at all. These people has as much right to say what they want to say as anyone else. However, if there's proof that terrorism and extremists views permeate through to moderate Muslims, I would suggest these pictures tell a thousand words:

http://www.acage.org/mmedia/?id=0013

Will there be a 9/11 as these signs state, in the EU? These are the people who do not understand nor deserve the freedoms they have, and who are living off the backs of Europe. Kudos to being civilized.


With US borders wide open and it's ports and nuclear plants basically unprotected for the last five years....one would think the terrorists would just be pouring in to wreak havoc and destruction.

Well, where are they?

I don't mean to imply that terrorists or terrorism doesn't exist, but I do think the methods employed by the Bush administration to fight terrorism has excerbated the problem from a few sporadic incidents to what has now become a major problem of global magnitude far beyond what was neccessary, economical or even morally justifiable.

Overkill would be a good way to describe it.

I'm probably just not up on the news, but when did the United States wantonly kill 3000 innocent people who just happened to be working in two building in NYC? When, in one fell swoop, did the United States attack another country or idea without some justification? When did we randomly murder innocents to make a religio-political statement?

And why would anybody blame the United States for not rolling over for terrorists who seek to destroy us and all of Western culture?

[mindwarrior]

CNN and the networks needs to show those pictures on the news when they happen. That is news.

[Nathyn]

CountryGuy wrote: Moot wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: We ALL have heard things similar to the following:

- There is no terrorism
- America and Israel are to blame for being in Arab lands
- A War on Terror cannot be won
- Fighting terrorism and extremism in Iraq instead of American soil is Bush propaganda
- Fighting terrorism only creates more terrorists
- Terrorists and their supporters only make up a few thousand people


So I will now show you how extremists who are not in Arab lands behave and use their freedom and free-speech.

Opinion: Europe has a lot to worry about - the EU is I think fragile at this time, but it seems there are some who are not happy at all. These people has as much right to say what they want to say as anyone else. However, if there's proof that terrorism and extremists views permeate through to moderate Muslims, I would suggest these pictures tell a thousand words:

http://www.acage.org/mmedia/?id=0013

Will there be a 9/11 as these signs state, in the EU? These are the people who do not understand nor deserve the freedoms they have, and who are living off the backs of Europe. Kudos to being civilized.


With US borders wide open and it's ports and nuclear plants basically unprotected for the last five years....one would think the terrorists would just be pouring in to wreak havoc and destruction.

Well, where are they?

I don't mean to imply that terrorists or terrorism doesn't exist, but I do think the methods employed by the Bush administration to fight terrorism has excerbated the problem from a few sporadic incidents to what has now become a major problem of global magnitude far beyond what was neccessary, economical or even morally justifiable.

Overkill would be a good way to describe it.

A few sporadic incidents?? Is that what its come to?
Yes, there's 2 billion Muslims and only a few thousand acts of terrorism. Now, crunch numbers and figure out how many actual Muslims could've been involved.

CountryGuy wrote: Friend, 3000+ people were killed, two landmarks in the US destroyed... Just five years ago. Amazing how quickly people forget.

And the incidents are sporadic only to you. Ask the UK. Ask Spain. Ask Israel. Ask Russia. Islamic terrorism has been an issue for decades, its only now starting to touch us. I think many of the methods employed are sorely needed -- Not all of them, but many are.
And according to the Department of Defense, around 60,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq.

Why do you think that 3,000 wealthy Americans' lives are worth more than 60,000 average Iraqis?

[CountryGuy]

Nathyn wrote:
CountryGuy wrote: Friend, 3000+ people were killed, two landmarks in the US destroyed... Just five years ago. Amazing how quickly people forget.

And the incidents are sporadic only to you. Ask the UK. Ask Spain. Ask Israel. Ask Russia. Islamic terrorism has been an issue for decades, its only now starting to touch us. I think many of the methods employed are sorely needed -- Not all of them, but many are.
And according to the Department of Defense, around 60,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq.

Why do you think that 3,000 wealthy Americans' lives are worth more than 60,000 average Iraqis?
No, they're not. One, this has nothing to do with the discussion of US policies toward its own citizens. And please don't wave that 60,000 number -- It includes the lives lost by militants bombing markets and slaughtering sports teams.

Two, it certainly has nothing to do with the insane idea that terrorism is not a threat.

[Mr. Sunshine]

callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: The only way to change an Islamofascist's mind is with a bullet. 8:)

That means nothing.

That is the sum of the equation of Islamofascist terrorism. It is everything. A liberal mindset that does not have the capacity to accept this reality is because fear and self delusion make it so. Creating a safe perception of reality is fine for yourself, but a joke to those who can actually deal with the way it really is. The Liberal view on terrorism is the worst excuse of projected cowardice the civilized world has ever known. 8:)



Change his mind without a bullet. Pfft. :roll:

[Anarko-Kapitalizt]

callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: The only way to change an Islamofascist's mind is with a bullet. 8:)

That means nothing.

People think that killing women and children in foreign countries sounds like fun don't they callous?

[Gaea]

CountryGuy wrote: Moot wrote:
With US borders wide open and it's ports and nuclear plants basically unprotected for the last five years....one would think the terrorists would just be pouring in to wreak havoc and destruction.

Well, where are they?

I don't mean to imply that terrorists or terrorism doesn't exist, but I do think the methods employed by the Bush administration to fight terrorism has excerbated the problem from a few sporadic incidents to what has now become a major problem of global magnitude far beyond what was neccessary, economical or even morally justifiable.

Overkill would be a good way to describe it.

A few sporadic incidents?? Is that what its come to?

Friend, 3000+ people were killed, two landmarks in the US destroyed... Just five years ago. Amazing how quickly people forget.

And the incidents are sporadic only to you. Ask the UK. Ask Spain. Ask Israel. Ask Russia. Islamic terrorism has been an issue for decades, its only now starting to touch us. I think many of the methods employed are sorely needed -- Not all of them, but many are.


Friend, lets not get carried away with emotion and keep things in perspective, shall we?

According to my calculations, there were 8,253 deaths caused by acts of terrorism (including 9/11) the world over since 1970. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_toll#Terrorism

Now compare that to the death toll caused by the US war on terror at 52,483 Iraq civilians, 3,112 US and coalition troops, 30,000 Iraq soldiers for a total of 85,595 deaths since 2003.

Add to that the deaths in Afghanistan of 504 US and coalition troops and a best estimate of civilians and Afghan troops at 12, 072 as of 2004 and you get a grand total of 98,171 deaths since Bush began his war on terror.

http://icasualties.org/oif/
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/
http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html#iraqitroopskilled


8,235 deaths from terrorism over 36 years versus 98,171 deaths from fighting terrorism over five years.

Sure looks like OVERKILL to me.


Now lets compare Bush's war on terror death count to death from road accidents in the US....

The body count from road accidents in developed economies is 390 times higher than the death toll in these countries from international terrorism, says a study appearing in a specialist journal, Injury Prevention.

In 2001, as many people died every 26 days on American roads as died in the terrorist attacks of 9/11, it says.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2005/11/30/051130231753.72wocvgo.html


So should we wage an all out war against civil engineers and auto makers? Of course not, yet the roads they design and the products they produce kill far more people than terrorists do.

Regarding the EU and Britain; They have been living and dealing with acts of terrorism for decades and never once did they see a need to invade a ME country or sacrifice any of their freedom or beliefs because of it. Only the US went OVERKILL and invaded a country that was no threat to them, thus excerbating terrorism the world over.

So yes, ask Spain, Britain. France, Belgium and Italy and they will tell you the US has made terrorism worse for them and everyone else the world over.

Do you want to see the statitics for the rise in terrorism since Bush began his war on terror compared to the 1990's and the 1980's?

http://www.gl.iit.edu/govdocs/maps/maps.htm

Sorry but the data only goes to 2003 because after that Bush determined the State Dept. shouldn't publish the number of terrorist acts anymore, since the sharp increase in acts of terrorism might make his "war on terror" ...ahem.... look bad.

U.S. Figures Show Sharp Global Rise In Terrorism
State Dept. Will Not Put Data in Report

The number of serious international terrorist incidents more than tripled last year, according to U.S. government figures, a sharp upswing in deadly attacks that the State Department has decided not to make public in its annual report on terrorism due to Congress this week....read
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/04/26/AR2005042601623.html


As for Russia and Israel, they are just as much the cause of terrorism as the US, if not more. That is nothing to proud of. In fact it is downright shameful.

[indieinmich]

Mr. Sunshine wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: The only way to change an Islamofascist's mind is with a bullet. 8:)

That means nothing.

That is the sum of the equation of Islamofascist terrorism. It is everything. A liberal mindset that does not have the capacity to accept this reality is because fear and self delusion make it so. Creating a safe perception of reality is fine for yourself, but a joke to those who can actually deal with the way it really is. The Liberal view on terrorism is the worst excuse of projected cowardice the civilized world has ever known. 8:)



Change his mind without a bullet. Pfft. :roll:
Try Respect.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Nathyn wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: We ALL have heard things similar to the following:

- There is no terrorism
- America and Israel are to blame for being in Arab lands
- A War on Terror cannot be won
- Fighting terrorism and extremism in Iraq instead of American soil is Bush propaganda
- Fighting terrorism only creates more terrorists
- Terrorists and their supporters only make up a few thousand people


So I will now show you how extremists who are not in Arab lands behave and use their freedom and free-speech.

Opinion: Europe has a lot to worry about - the EU is I think fragile at this time, but it seems there are some who are not happy at all. These people has as much right to say what they want to say as anyone else. However, if there's proof that terrorism and extremists views permeate through to moderate Muslims, I would suggest these pictures tell a thousand words:

http://www.acage.org/mmedia/?id=0013

Will there be a 9/11 as these signs state, in the EU? These are the people who do not understand nor deserve the freedoms they have, and who are living off the backs of Europe. Kudos to being civilized.
Being an ignorant American living in a country where Muslims are rare, people like Michelle Malkin are my only source for information on Muslims. Muslims, like Jews in Nazi Germany, are a vast minority. They wear strange clothes, have strange customs, speak foreign languages, and are in many ways so "different." For this reason, I simply have to say: I hate them. Every time I see Muslims on TV, they're blowing things up, killing people, and hating on Jews. Since the media is liberally-biased, that must actually mean Muslims are even worse than they're shown to be. And frankly, I think Muslims are despicable because of how they bigotedly stereotype, discriminate against, and make blanket statements about Jews.

Until Muslims shed aside their turbans, burqas, and beards, and start wearing blue jeans, bikinis, and start drinking Coca-Cola, I'm still going to think they are a strange people which are to be distrusted. Until civil liberty is crushed under the weight of perpetual fear, I won't stop thinking they are all terrorists. And until Muslims denounce Muhammad and praise Jesus as their savior, I won't stop thinking that they are just some kind of large-scale Satanic cult.

Pretty much any sign-wielding protesters of any movement tend to be the most extremist people (you never see a sign that says, "MODERATE CENTRISM MUST BE ESTABLISHED NOW!" or "EXTREMISTS MUST DIE!" eh?). In this case, the circumstances are totally different. Muslims are a unique case, for the reasons stated above. These aren't just radical Muslims, like Wahhabis, Qutbis, and the various Shiite militias throughout the Middle East. This selective list of photos are representative of real, mainstream Muslims. What mainstream Islamic organizations have said about terrorism is irrelevant. The supposed fatwas against terrorism by respected imams and ayatollahs is irrelevant. The overwhelming majority of the Middle-East reaching out to America on 9/11 is irrelevant. Leftists just don't seem to understand that people like Congressman Keith Ellison, Jermaine Jackson, and Cat Stevens want us dead.

I used to work with several Muslims at Wal-Mart. During their breaks, they would uphold their mandatory prayers, but they would do so privately, by praying to Mecca in the clothing department's changing room, likely because we ignorant Americans would gawk and stare if they actually sat on a rug, barefoot, in public (and rightfully so!). And every day, I was quite certain that my co-workers wanted to kill me because they wore turbans and had beards. Well, not all of them. In fact, one Arab co-worker I knew was also a Muslim, but he had no turban or beard, he spoke fluent English, and he was a pretty nice guy (so he probably wasn't a very devout Muslim).

I never spoke to the other Muslims, though. Why should I? I have people like Michelle Malkin and Glen Beck who tell me all I need to know.

It's just satire, folks

You're satire is too long winded. Try to make it a few sentences to get your satirical point across or most don't bother. You unfortunately picked up on the 3 or 4 sentences of text on the site, and didn't bother to really think about the pictures, where the pictures came from, or my comments on the pictures. Par for the course unfortunately.

[Rankor and Pissing]

homerjay_s wrote: Not sure what your point is, other than to equate all followers of Islam with being terrorists.

Nice link to a biggotted, hatemongering, ignorance spreading website. It explains your position quite well.

Point being that it's not terrorists who are marching in the streets calling for the beheading of the critics of Islam. The link is irrelevant, the pictures, which tell the story is my point. Feel free to argue about what the pictures mean, I am making no statements or judgments. I'm simply pointing out that the folks holding the signs aren't the one's on the FBI's most wanted list.


My position on the subject is irrelevant - I posted this for further discussion. If I simply wanted to reaffirm my position, I wouldn't bother posting.

[Rankor and Pissing]

callous wrote: Rankor and Pissing wrote: We ALL have heard things similar to the following:

- There is no terrorism
- America and Israel are to blame for being in Arab lands
- A War on Terror cannot be won
- Fighting terrorism and extremism in Iraq instead of American soil is Bush propaganda
- Fighting terrorism only creates more terrorists
- Terrorists and their supporters only make up a few thousand people


So I will now show you how extremists who are not in Arab lands behave and use their freedom and free-speech.

Opinion: Europe has a lot to worry about - the EU is I think fragile at this time, but it seems there are some who are not happy at all. These people has as much right to say what they want to say as anyone else. However, if there's proof that terrorism and extremists views permeate through to moderate Muslims, I would suggest these pictures tell a thousand words:

http://www.acage.org/mmedia/?id=0013

Will there be a 9/11 as these signs state, in the EU? These are the people who do not understand nor deserve the freedoms they have, and who are living off the backs of Europe. Kudos to being civilized.

Of course there will be a 9/11 in europe if elite capitalists decide that they need some political capital to use....

So what does that have to do with arab terrorists?

You tell me. Who will carry out and claim accountability for the 9/11 in Europe (since we're looking into the crystal ball). Will it be the Neo-Nazi's in Germany, the European Peoples Party, the Commies, or some radical Islamic group, or maybe the American's will perpetrate a terrorist bombing on Big Ben, the Arc de Triumph or maybe St. Paul's Cathedral.

Any opinion on who will carry it out? When? The likelihood of what group or organization?

[Rankor and Pissing]

indieinmich wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: The only way to change an Islamofascist's mind is with a bullet. 8:)

That means nothing.

That is the sum of the equation of Islamofascist terrorism. It is everything. A liberal mindset that does not have the capacity to accept this reality is because fear and self delusion make it so. Creating a safe perception of reality is fine for yourself, but a joke to those who can actually deal with the way it really is. The Liberal view on terrorism is the worst excuse of projected cowardice the civilized world has ever known. 8:)



Change his mind without a bullet. Pfft. :roll:
Try Respect.

Respect just LEAPS to mind while I'm watching a young man like this slit the throat of a tied-up hostage, when he then wipes the blade on the back of the person as they slowly spurt blood amid shouts of allah akbar. I would suggest respect is not gained in this manner... soldiers who want to kill each other can respect their enemy - these are not soldier, they are murderers and get no respect.

[callous]

Mr. Sunshine wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: The only way to change an Islamofascist's mind is with a bullet. 8:)

That means nothing.

That is the sum of the equation of Islamofascist terrorism. It is everything. A liberal mindset that does not have the capacity to accept this reality is because fear and self delusion make it so. Creating a safe perception of reality is fine for yourself, but a joke to those who can actually deal with the way it really is. The Liberal view on terrorism is the worst excuse of projected cowardice the civilized world has ever known. 8:)



Change his mind without a bullet. Pfft. :roll:

I've seen many coldly pseudo-rational statements like that in reference to entire populations of people......

unfortunately the bulk of them are black and white, and are interviews with Himmler.

[Rankor and Pissing]

Link or reference to the Himmler documents?

[NAB]

callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: The only way to change an Islamofascist's mind is with a bullet. 8:)

That means nothing.

That is the sum of the equation of Islamofascist terrorism. It is everything. A liberal mindset that does not have the capacity to accept this reality is because fear and self delusion make it so. Creating a safe perception of reality is fine for yourself, but a joke to those who can actually deal with the way it really is. The Liberal view on terrorism is the worst excuse of projected cowardice the civilized world has ever known. 8:)



Change his mind without a bullet. Pfft. :roll:

I've seen many coldly pseudo-rational statements like that in reference to entire populations of people......

unfortunately the bulk of them are black and white, and are interviews with Himmler.

Didn't take long for the Nazi comparisons to come out.

[callous]

NAB wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: The only way to change an Islamofascist's mind is with a bullet. 8:)

That means nothing.

That is the sum of the equation of Islamofascist terrorism. It is everything. A liberal mindset that does not have the capacity to accept this reality is because fear and self delusion make it so. Creating a safe perception of reality is fine for yourself, but a joke to those who can actually deal with the way it really is. The Liberal view on terrorism is the worst excuse of projected cowardice the civilized world has ever known. 8:)



Change his mind without a bullet. Pfft. :roll:

I've seen many coldly pseudo-rational statements like that in reference to entire populations of people......

unfortunately the bulk of them are black and white, and are interviews with Himmler.

Didn't take long for the Nazi comparisons to come out.

It s*cks when they're apt doesn't it?

[NAB]

callous wrote: NAB wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: The only way to change an Islamofascist's mind is with a bullet. 8:)

That means nothing.

That is the sum of the equation of Islamofascist terrorism. It is everything. A liberal mindset that does not have the capacity to accept this reality is because fear and self delusion make it so. Creating a safe perception of reality is fine for yourself, but a joke to those who can actually deal with the way it really is. The Liberal view on terrorism is the worst excuse of projected cowardice the civilized world has ever known. 8:)



Change his mind without a bullet. Pfft. :roll:

I've seen many coldly pseudo-rational statements like that in reference to entire populations of people......

unfortunately the bulk of them are black and white, and are interviews with Himmler.

Didn't take long for the Nazi comparisons to come out.

It s*cks when they're apt doesn't it?

Sure does, especially when apt=hyperbole.

[callous]

NAB wrote: callous wrote: NAB wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: callous wrote: Mr. Sunshine wrote: The only way to change an Islamofascist's mind is with a bullet. 8:)

That means nothing.

That is the sum of the equation of Islamofascist terrorism. It is everything. A liberal mindset that does not have the capacity to accept this reality is because fear and self delusion make it so. Creating a safe perception of reality is fine for yourself, but a joke to those who can actually deal with the way it really is. The Liberal view on terrorism is the worst excuse of projected cowardice the civilized world has ever known. 8:)



Change his mind without a bullet. Pfft. :roll:

I've seen many coldly pseudo-rational statements like that in reference to entire populations of people......

unfortunately the bulk of them are black and white, and are interviews with Himmler.

Didn't take long for the Nazi comparisons to come out.

It s*cks when they're apt doesn't it?

Sure does, especially when apt=hyperbole.

oooff, clever bastard

[Rankor and Pissing]

Still waiting for the link or quote or reference... anything? Simply pulling out the Nazi card won't do... you'll have to back it up.