Political Crossfire Forums

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Apparently the IDF called ahead to do a raid on some militants, they told the "innocents" to get out of the area... in which the innocents then gathered around the house chanting "Death to Israel". So Israel called off the airstrike...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,230579,00.html
This is just nuts. It just goes to show that while they attempt to limit civilian casualties, the Palestinians apparently wish to up them.

californian conservative · Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 2710 Location: Michigan

Venom wrote: Apparently the IDF called ahead to do a raid on some militants, they told the "innocents" to get out of the area... in which the innocents then gathered around the house chanting "Death to Israel". So Israel called off the airstrike...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,230579,00.html
This is just nuts. It just goes to show that while they attempt to limit civilian casualties, the Palestinians apparently wish to up them.

I know its rediculous. Israel is going to have to adapt, because every time there is going to be an airstrike people are going to do this now. I think they are going to start having to do surgical strikes with special ops or they are going to have to do it Munich style. (unfortunately that way may seem like terrorism, but it needs to be done)

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Well they already carry out raids with their special forces.
My problem with these human shields is they are clear supporters of these terrorists as they are willingly running to them to shield them. They too are the enemy. Bombs away....

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

This will force us to be more reserved with calling ahead of time and will probably force up civilian fatilities due to the inability to warn people ahead of time. And I guarentee that at some point we are going to be accused of intentionally killing them stating "Well why didnt you send the usual warning? Huh? Huh?!". It always happens.

californian conservative · Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 2710 Location: Michigan

superskippy wrote: This will force us to be more reserved with calling ahead of time and will probably force up civilian fatilities due to the inability to warn people ahead of time. And I guarentee that at some point we are going to be accused of intentionally killing them stating "Well why didnt you send the usual warning? Huh? Huh?!". It always happens.

Yeah, its nearly impossible to fight someone who uses such cheap tactics. The problem is minimizing collateral damage and not resorting to their level, because when you do that you quite literally become no better than they are. Has Israel tried poisoning the militants? properly used it would be effective and would minimize collateral damage.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Superskippy
When I left Iraq US forces started to do the call ahead strategy. It's just an idiotic move, even if the people don't swarm the place they can simply call the targets so they can leave...

ToonArmyIsComing · Joined: 15 Feb 2005 Posts: 5888 Location: Ontario

Venom wrote: Apparently the IDF called ahead to do a raid on some militants, they told the "innocents" to get out of the area... in which the innocents then gathered around the house chanting "Death to Israel". So Israel called off the airstrike...
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,230579,00.html
This is just nuts. It just goes to show that while they attempt to limit civilian casualties, the Palestinians apparently wish to up them.

It's a pretty interesting tactic employed by the Palestinians IMHO ... just go stand somewhere and start chanting whenever the IDF wants to show up!!!

I have to say this whole conflict is an absolute joke now.

emerald · Joined: 05 Apr 2005 Posts: 6927 Location: uk

can i just ask a question here?

if the IDF knew there were militants in said place, but they also knew that if they bombed the place it could potentially harm many civilians, then why didnt they just do a raid?! why do they have to blow up the whole place for a few people?? or with death always comes destruction?? just raid the place and arrest the known militants..that way no need to call ahead of time, no destruction of infrastructure, no unnecessary deaths of civilians and the militants are captured.....hey presto what a great solution. maybe i should be commnader of the IDF???

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

What happened the last time we did a raid? As I recall it made international headlines with human shields, gun battles at a mosque, and innocent civilians, IDF soldiers, and Palestinians militants and terrorists cut down. A raid with a few dozen soldiers into the heart of a Palestinian district is not a method that assures no loss of life. We use special forces and raids extensivly but you cant always use it nor is it always wise or expediant to do so.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Emerald
The problem with doing a raid is also the potential risk to the IDF troops carrying it out. It's much safer for them to drop a 500lb bomb on the house.
Also doing this raid would require the IDF to go into Palestinian territory and they would easily be spotted. A simple spotter with a cell phone could call and warn the militants.
Also doing a raid certainly does not mean no death and no destruction.

californian conservative · Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 2710 Location: Michigan

Venom wrote: Emerald
The problem with doing a raid is also the potential risk to the IDF troops carrying it out. It's much safer for them to drop a 500lb bomb on the house.
Also doing this raid would require the IDF to go into Palestinian territory and they would easily be spotted. A simple spotter with a cell phone could call and warn the militants.
Also doing a raid certainly does not mean no death and no destruction.

How about poison? would that work?

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7442 Location: Petah Tikva

We've done that a few times, but only in delicate assasinations abroad such as in Europe.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: How about poison? would that work?
Poison is still risky to the Israeli people whom much carry out the task. It has worked and even the KGB apparently continues to use this tactic.
Poisoning takes a lot more planning and prep than flying a plane and laser targeting a house for destruction. Making it much more efficient in killing militants.

californian conservative · Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 2710 Location: Michigan

Venom wrote: Quote: How about poison? would that work?
Poison is still risky to the Israeli people whom much carry out the task. It has worked and even the KGB apparently continues to use this tactic.
Poisoning takes a lot more planning and prep than flying a plane and laser targeting a house for destruction. Making it much more efficient in killing militants.

There really is no easy answer. Do these people come into the open often or do they hole themselves in buildings most of the day?

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

I believe they are probably holed up from most of the day, but your right there is no perfect answer to this.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: the Palestinians apparently wish to up them.
Yeah I'll bet that was exactly their intention. :roll:

californian conservative · Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 2710 Location: Michigan

Venom wrote: I believe they are probably holed up from most of the day, but your right there is no perfect answer to this.

Because if they leave the house often the sniping technology is there so that you don't have to really worry about your sniper being taken out.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

AgentKGB wrote: Yeah I'll bet that was exactly their intention.
Running to a militant target that is set to be bombed and chanting death to Israel seems to show their intentions...
Don't worry these people chanting the death of the Jews and supporting terrorism are just innocent civilians...:roll:

Quote: Because if they leave the house often the sniping technology is there so that you don't have to really worry about your sniper being taken out.
Well that's not entirely true because snipers have to be within a decent range, thus putting them deep in Palestinian territory. Also since it's an urban setting there is a lot of line of sight issues.
Coaltion snipers are killed in Iraq even with the best of sniping technology. It wouldn't be difficult for a group of Palestinian militants to dress up like normal civilians (which apparently is their outfit anyways..) and just rush the sniper once they are close with easily conceled weapons such as pistols or even a suicide vest.
Sniping is very risky business because your often outnumbered, in enemy control territory, and without very close support if you get rushed if found.

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

Venom wrote: AgentKGB wrote: Yeah I'll bet that was exactly their intention.
Running to a militant target that is set to be bombed and chanting death to Israel seems to show their intentions...
They might have just wanted Israel to stop bombing their country.
Venom wrote: Don't worry these people chanting the death of the Jews and supporting terrorism are just innocent civilians...:roll:
I thought it was "Death to Israel." Israel being the country that was about to bomb their land, it's not surprising that they aren't it's biggest fan. Israel isn't synomous with Jews, Jews are people and Israel is a country.

Venom · Joined: 06 Sep 2006 Posts: 807

Quote: They might have just wanted Israel to stop bombing their country.

They were chanting "Death to Israel". Not "Stop Violence" or even "Stop bombing us", no they yelled as loud as they could that they want all the Jews inside of Israel wiped out.

Quote: I thought it was "Death to Israel."
Israel, a Jewish state. If Israel was wiping out Palestine would that not be called genocide of Muslims? So if Muslims went into Israel to wipe them out wouldn't that be genocide against Jews? SO yes they are advocating the death of the Jews.

Quote: Israel being the country that was about to bomb their land, it's not surprising that they aren't it's biggest fan
Oddly enough they weren't fans of Israel prior to them bombing Palestine.

Quote: Israel isn't synomous with Jews, Jews are people and Israel is a country.
Israel is a Jewish state. So I argue yes it's synomous with Jews. Palestine, Iran, Hezbollah, Syria, etc seem to think so.