Political Crossfire Forums

[Narvik]

Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He let angels live in heaven, doesn't he? Why does he test us? First he created us in the paradise, right? But 2 persons sinned and all of humanity is forever punished, but if you're a good human you can still go to heaven.

Why didn't God just make us all angels that live in heaven and are always happy?

[toddytodd]

Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He let angels live in heaven, doesn't he? Why does he test us? First he created us in the paradise, right? But 2 persons sinned and all of humanity is forever punished, but if you're a good human you can still go to heaven.

Why didn't God just make us all angels that live in heaven and are always happy?

From what I have been told, it is as if God said: "Angels are nice and all, but they were made to worship me. How great would it be if I created something that had a will to worship me? It would make the worship so much better!"
So he created people.
I don't buy it (it total), but that is what I have been told.
There may be other ideas or thoughts out there. I would be interested in seeing what they are.

[eynon]

Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He let angels live in heaven, doesn't he? Why does he test us? First he created us in the paradise, right? But 2 persons sinned and all of humanity is forever punished, but if you're a good human you can still go to heaven.

Why didn't God just make us all angels that live in heaven and are always happy?

IMO it's a growth thing.....every major religion has at it's core the value of personal growth of personal maturation.

John MacAuthur has an interesting analogy about how the human soul undergoes a similair process to the refining of gold. We get pummled and burned, but in the end we shine, and God can see his reflection in us.

It perhaps a bit simplistic. But I believe it points in the right direction.......

[psholtz]

Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He does, just so long as you obey God's Law.

Check Luke 17:21 for more info..

[psholtz]

eynon wrote: John MacAuthur has an interesting analogy about how the human soul undergoes a similair process to the refining of gold. We get pummled and burned, but in the end we shine, and God can see his reflection in us.
It's an interesting analogy..

The alchemists use this analogy as well.

[eynon]

psholtz wrote: eynon wrote: John MacAuthur has an interesting analogy about how the human soul undergoes a similair process to the refining of gold. We get pummled and burned, but in the end we shine, and God can see his reflection in us.
It's an interesting analogy..

The alchemists use this analogy as well.

was there was an Islamic tradition of using science aka "al-chemie" to better understand the nature of God......to get closer to heaven, so to speak.

[psholtz]

eynon wrote: psholtz wrote: eynon wrote: John MacAuthur has an interesting analogy about how the human soul undergoes a similair process to the refining of gold. We get pummled and burned, but in the end we shine, and God can see his reflection in us.
It's an interesting analogy..

The alchemists use this analogy as well.

was there was an Islamic tradition of using science aka "al-chemie" to better understand the nature of God......to get closer to heaven, so to speak.
Yes there was..

Alchemy in general should be understood as a spiritual quest, not a physical/material quest to produce "physical" material gold .. it's more about spiritual gold.

It's a fascinating, fascinating subject, actually..

[Narvik]

eynon wrote: Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He let angels live in heaven, doesn't he? Why does he test us? First he created us in the paradise, right? But 2 persons sinned and all of humanity is forever punished, but if you're a good human you can still go to heaven.

Why didn't God just make us all angels that live in heaven and are always happy?

IMO it's a growth thing.....every major religion has at it's core the value of personal growth of personal maturation.

John MacAuthur has an interesting analogy about how the human soul undergoes a similair process to the refining of gold. We get pummled and burned, but in the end we shine, and God can see his reflection in us.

It perhaps a bit simplistic. But I believe it points in the right direction.......
Not all shine in the way god intended.
I and most of my country is "spiritually blind" and we see no reason to follow the Bible.

[Narvik]

psholtz wrote: Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He does, just so long as you obey God's Law.

Check Luke 17:21 for more info..
What I meant was why didn't he create us in heaven and let us live there forever, like he did to the angels.

[The Comrade]

Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He let angels live in heaven, doesn't he? Why does he test us? First he created us in the paradise, right? But 2 persons sinned and all of humanity is forever punished, but if you're a good human you can still go to heaven.

Why didn't God just make us all angels that live in heaven and are always happy?

we had the garden of eden. and once man was given the knowlege from that tree it couldn't be taken away. we were forever flawed. so we were kicked out.

and earth is the proving ground for the good and evil of society. it's also the middle ground between heaven and hell.

[psholtz]

Narvik wrote: psholtz wrote: Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He does, just so long as you obey God's Law.

Check Luke 17:21 for more info..
What I meant was why didn't he create us in heaven and let us live there forever, like he did to the angels.
You have Free Will.

Angels don't.

You are more powerful than angels, for this reason.

But as a consequence of that power, you must suffer for it as well.. esp when you make retarded decisions as a consequence of your Free Will.

[psholtz]

eynon wrote: psholtz wrote: eynon wrote: John MacAuthur has an interesting analogy about how the human soul undergoes a similair process to the refining of gold. We get pummled and burned, but in the end we shine, and God can see his reflection in us.
It's an interesting analogy..

The alchemists use this analogy as well.

was there was an Islamic tradition of using science aka "al-chemie" to better understand the nature of God......to get closer to heaven, so to speak.
Bear in mind too that the Gospels were written in Greek, and in Greek, the word Christos is very similar to chrysafi (χρυσάφι) which is the Greek word for "gold"..

"Peter" means "stone", as in the Philsopher's Stone of the alchemist..

There are really fascinating parallels here to the Biblical account as well.. but I'm no expert on this subject.

[eynon]

psholtz wrote: eynon wrote: psholtz wrote: eynon wrote: John MacAuthur has an interesting analogy about how the human soul undergoes a similair process to the refining of gold. We get pummled and burned, but in the end we shine, and God can see his reflection in us.
It's an interesting analogy..

The alchemists use this analogy as well.

was there was an Islamic tradition of using science aka "al-chemie" to better understand the nature of God......to get closer to heaven, so to speak.
Bear in mind too that the Gospels were written in Greek, and in Greek, the word Christos is very similar to chrysafi (χρυσάφι) which is the Greek word for "gold"..

"Peter" means "stone", as in the Philsopher's Stone of the alchemist..

There are really fascinating parallels here to the Biblical account as well.. but I'm no expert on this subject.

well I don't spend to much time on the sybolism, but I can see why those names would be connected to significant words in the greek.

Virtually every langauge on earth is better at conveying deeper meanings then our English......our language was developed to it's modern form by the merchant and legal classes of South Western England.....beging highly inlfuenced by the merchants and trademens of Normandy and Flanders............ergo we have mulitiple ways of saying "bucket" but only one way to say "love".

funny eh?

[Narvik]

psholtz wrote: Narvik wrote: psholtz wrote: Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He does, just so long as you obey God's Law.

Check Luke 17:21 for more info..
What I meant was why didn't he create us in heaven and let us live there forever, like he did to the angels.
You have Free Will.

Angels don't.

You are more powerful than angels, for this reason.

But as a consequence of that power, you must suffer for it as well.. esp when you make retarded decisions as a consequence of your Free Will.
My question was: why didn't he create us in heaven?

Do we lose our free will when we get to heaven? If not, why didn't God create us in heaven. If so, how can we be more powerful than angels?

[Narvik]

The Comrade wrote: Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He let angels live in heaven, doesn't he? Why does he test us? First he created us in the paradise, right? But 2 persons sinned and all of humanity is forever punished, but if you're a good human you can still go to heaven.

Why didn't God just make us all angels that live in heaven and are always happy?

we had the garden of eden. and once man was given the knowlege from that tree it couldn't be taken away. we were forever flawed. so we were kicked out.

and earth is the proving ground for the good and evil of society. it's also the middle ground between heaven and hell.
God made us flawed and then punishes all of humanity for all eternity for it. Even those who follow the Bible are punished while they live here on earth since it's not pure joy.Wasn't it really stupid of God to make us as curious as he made us and the place us in the paradise? Isn't it evil of God to later punish us for it?

We can come to heaven, do we lose our free will when we get there? If not, why didn't God create a heaven where it's possible to have free will (paradise doesn't count).

[eynon]

[quote="Narvik"] eynon wrote: Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He let angels live in heaven, doesn't he? Why does he test us? First he created us in the paradise, right? But 2 persons sinned and all of humanity is forever punished, but if you're a good human you can still go to heaven.

Why didn't God just make us all angels that live in heaven and are always happy?

IMO it's a growth thing.....every major religion has at it's core the value of personal growth of personal maturation.

John MacAuthur has an interesting analogy about how the human soul undergoes a similair process to the refining of gold. We get pummled and burned, but in the end we shine, and God can see his reflection in us.

It perhaps a bit simplistic. But I believe it points in the right direction.......
Quote: Not all shine in the way god intended. the cost of freedom.......

Quote: I and most of my country is "spiritually blind" and we see no reason to follow the Bible. that may be true, but you guys still seem to have plenty of baggage: http://news.agendainc.com/mt-agenda/content/archives/2006/01/swedish_satan_j.html

[The Comrade]

Narvik wrote:
God made us flawed and then punishes all of humanity for all eternity for it. Even those who follow the Bible are punished while they live here on earth since it's not pure joy.Wasn't it really stupid of God to make us as curious as he made us and the place us in the paradise? Isn't it evil of God to later punish us for it?

god didn't make us curious. the tempter did.

Narvik wrote: We can come to heaven, do we lose our free will when we get there? If not, why didn't God create a heaven where it's possible to have free will (paradise doesn't count).

how would i know? i've never been there. i would assume that you don't lose your freewill, as there would be no reason to take it away. and since god created us in his image, saying we wouldn't have free will says god doesn't have free will.

[psholtz]

Narvik wrote: My question was: why didn't he create us in heaven?

Do we lose our free will when we get to heaven? If not, why didn't God create us in heaven. If so, how can we be more powerful than angels?
My point was that you have the power and freedom to return to Heaven whensoever you should desire to.

I bet you didn't even bother looking up the reference in Luke 17:21 I mentioned earlier, did you?

[perdidochas]

Narvik wrote: Why doesn't God let us all live in heaven?
He let angels live in heaven, doesn't he? Why does he test us? First he created us in the paradise, right? But 2 persons sinned and all of humanity is forever punished, but if you're a good human you can still go to heaven.

Why didn't God just make us all angels that live in heaven and are always happy?

Not all angels are in heaven. Satan, for instance, is a fallen angel.

[eynon]

psholtz wrote: Narvik wrote: My question was: why didn't he create us in heaven?

Do we lose our free will when we get to heaven? If not, why didn't God create us in heaven. If so, how can we be more powerful than angels?
My point was that you have the power and freedom to return to Heaven whensoever you should desire to.

I bet you didn't even bother looking up the reference in Luke 17:21 I mentioned earlier, did you?

I looked it up :-D

Quote: 20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation;

21 neither will they say,'Look, here!' or,'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."

22 He said to the disciples, "The days will come, when you will desire to see one of the days of the Son of Man, and you will not see it.

23 They will tell you,'Look, here!' or'Look, there!' Don't go away, nor follow after them,

24 for as the lightning, when it flashes out of the one part under the sky, shines to the other part under the sky; so will the Son of Man be in his day.

25 But first, he must suffer many things and be rejected by this generation.

26 As it happened in the days of Noah, even so will it be also in the days of the Son of Man.

27 They ate, they drank, they married, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ship, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.

28 Likewise, even as it happened in the days of Lot: they ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built;

29 but in the day that Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and sulfur from the sky, and destroyed them all.

30 It will be the same way in the day that the Son of Man is revealed.

31 In that day, he who will be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, let him not go down to take them away. Let him who is in the field likewise not turn back.