Political Crossfire Forums

[gavnook]

Heinz wrote: Quote: I don't have that information, and if I did it would be irrelevant.

In this case it would be relevant to prove your point.

Quote: I really wasn't trying to say anything about race at all, although I'm sure it is a factor in how people view slavery. What I see as the major distinction between plantation slavery and conscription is the nature of the forced labor.

Slavery is when you are forced to work with little to no benefits. In the Army you willingly join knowing full well what your job may entitle you to do. You know the dangers of your CHOSEN profession. Not only that, you get paid to do it.

Did you forget what this thread is about? Do you know what conscription means? I am talking specifically about being drafted into the military.

Heinz wrote:
Quote: I find it horribly wrong to force anyone to do anything, but there's a whole new level of wrongness when people are forced to kill. I suppose the fact that conscription is an equal oppourtunity form of slavery probably makes a lot more acceptable to many people, but it makes no difference to me.

You think fighting in an Army that you CHOSE to join is slavery?

What a warped view you have.

I wouldn't call it slavery so much as indentured servitude.

[gavnook]

Heinz wrote: Even if there's a draft, which I pray there isn't, it is far from slavery.

Please explain the difference. Surely, you must see the similarities.

[Heinz]

Quote: Did you forget what this thread is about? Do you know what conscription means? I am talking specifically about being drafted into the military.

Yes I know what this thread is about.

Quote: I wouldn't call it slavery so much as indentured servitude.

You just called it slavery 2 posts ago. Now it's indentured servitude?

Do you know what indentured servitude is?

It literally means you owe someone a debt so you go and work for them until you pay it off.

So they're either slaves, like you said earlier, who are forced to murder strangers against their will, or they are servants who owe the government some money or a punishment and they serve to pay it off.

[Heinz]

gavnook wrote: Heinz wrote: Even if there's a draft, which I pray there isn't, it is far from slavery.

Please explain the difference. Surely, you must see the similarities.

To start off, now it's back to slavery again? I thought you changed it to servitude....Oh well.

Very few similarities. The only one really being that you're "forced" to join. Other than that, they get PAID to do that work, they recieve any benefits that other soldiers get while they serve, and they get the VA benefits like everyone else.

Slaves are forced to work but what do they get in return?

JACK s**t.

[Ozzone]

The hidden purpose of enacting the draft to start conscription is simple. The liberal, anti-war Democrats (and that includes Murtha and Sangel), want to infest the military with dissenters. 100% of the military now is voluntary and those members CHOSE to serve. That is why you hear very little, if any, anti-war sentiment in the military. Oh there's a lone voice now and then, or a service member goes UA or deserts, but that is the rare, extreme case.

The Democrats are fully aware that the vast majority of military lean Republican and they know the only way to change that is with a draft. In today's world of politics, numbers mean everything and the Democrats want to increase their ranks, even in the military.

[gavnook]

Heinz wrote: Quote: Did you forget what this thread is about? Do you know what conscription means? I am talking specifically about being drafted into the military.

Yes I know what this thread is about.

Quote: I wouldn't call it slavery so much as indentured servitude.

You just called it slavery 2 posts ago. Now it's indentured servitude?

You were talking about signing up voluntarily. I consider that indentured servitude because when you're in the military you cannot simply quit and are considered government property. No other employment contracts are ever enforced the way enlistment contracts are.

Heinz wrote:
Do you know what indentured servitude is?

It literally means you owe someone a debt so you go and work for them until you pay it off.

An indentured servant owes a debt of service, not of money. One who owes a debt of money can pay it off however he chooses. An indentured servant must labor as he is ordered.

Heinz wrote:
So they're either slaves, like you said earlier, who are forced to murder strangers against their will, or they are servants who owe the government some money or a punishment and they serve to pay it off.

Sort of. Either you sign up voluntarily and will be strictly held to your end of the contract until it expires and are an indentured servant, or you are drafted (or stop-lossed) and are a slave.

[sholtz revtek]

Heinz wrote: gavnook wrote: Heinz wrote: Even if there's a draft, which I pray there isn't, it is far from slavery.

Please explain the difference. Surely, you must see the similarities.

To start off, now it's back to slavery again? I thought you changed it to servitude....Oh well.

Very few similarities. The only one really being that you're "forced" to join. Other than that, they get PAID to do that work, they recieve any benefits that other soldiers get while they serve, and they get the VA benefits like everyone else.

Slaves are forced to work but what do they get in return?

JACK s**t.

"Slavery is a condition of control over a person against their will, enforced by violence or other forms of coercion. Slavery almost always occurs for the purpose of securing the labor of the person concerned."

"Conscription is a general term for involuntary labor demanded by some established authority, but it is most often used in the specific sense of government policies that require (very often, male only) citizens to serve in their armed forces."

Regardless if the people are being paid, fed, housed or whatever, people are still being forced* to do something they do not want to do.

Conscription is just another flavor of slavery.

[Eduffy80911]

sholtz revtek wrote: Heinz wrote: gavnook wrote: Heinz wrote: Even if there's a draft, which I pray there isn't, it is far from slavery.

Please explain the difference. Surely, you must see the similarities.

To start off, now it's back to slavery again? I thought you changed it to servitude....Oh well.

Very few similarities. The only one really being that you're "forced" to join. Other than that, they get PAID to do that work, they recieve any benefits that other soldiers get while they serve, and they get the VA benefits like everyone else.

Slaves are forced to work but what do they get in return?

JACK s**t.

"Slavery is a condition of control over a person against their will, enforced by violence or other forms of coercion. Slavery almost always occurs for the purpose of securing the labor of the person concerned."

"Conscription is a general term for involuntary labor demanded by some established authority, but it is most often used in the specific sense of government policies that require (very often, male only) citizens to serve in their armed forces."

Regardless if the people are being payed, fed, housed or whatever, people are still being forced* to do something they do not want to do.

Conscription is just another flavor of slavery.

slaves are "paid" in that they are fed, housed and kept alive.
compensation for forced labor doesn't mean it's not slavery.
consider high taxation, for example. If you're spending most of your time working for the government, aren't you really just a slave with an allowance?

[gavnook]

Heinz wrote: gavnook wrote: Heinz wrote: Even if there's a draft, which I pray there isn't, it is far from slavery.

Please explain the difference. Surely, you must see the similarities.

To start off, now it's back to slavery again? I thought you changed it to servitude....Oh well.

I'll make it simple.

Draft = Involuntary Servitude = Slavery
No Draft = Voluntary Servitude = Not Slavery

Heinz wrote:
Very few similarities. The only one really being that you're "forced" to join. Other than that, they get PAID to do that work, they recieve any benefits that other soldiers get while they serve, and they get the VA benefits like everyone else.

Slaves are forced to work but what do they get in return?

JACK s**t.

Whatever a conscript gets paid was apparently insufficient to get him to join voluntarily, so he's being compensated less than he would demand for the job, like any other slave. All slaves must get some sort of compensation or they would starve, or more likely flee or die trying. Being drafted can destroy great opportunities for some. For many, a draft would cost them far more in lost income than they would receive in the military. In fact, this is often the case with reservists and National Guardsmen, where they're forced to leave a job that pays substantially more than active duty pay. At least these guys somewhat did it to themselves.

My point is simply that getting paid does not prevent one from being a slave. Conscripts in the South Korean army get paid somewhere around $15 a month, if I recall. The army provides food, shelter, clothing, cigarettes, and other basic essentials. Are they not slaves because of this compensation? Would it be any different if they were paid $150 a month? $1500?

[Tracker]

More PLAYGROUND_POLITIKING at it's worst, as usual, in so-called 'positive-goodness.'

It's soooooooooooooooo gross!

The 'strategy' here, OBVIOUSLY, is to equate the DEFENSIVE ACTION AGAINST the war declared against ALL of ThePeopleOfEarth by Hateful religions --

-- TO the draft.

-- "If you support the WarAgainstTerror, then you must support the draft," so says the anti-defense-against-terror hateful religionist SUPPORTERS.

ALL TERRORISTS ARE RELIGIOUS, and only religions HATE YOU for any concocted excuse, while only governments LOVE YOU ALL EQUALLY.

They tried to DIVERT ATTENTION from their hateful majestic life-styles by perversley sniffing crotches like DOGS ...

-- teen-age cheerleaders' asses
-- Rev. Haggard's FRAUD
-- qualifying HumanSerivces and EQUALITY AFTER having your love 'quantified' through perverse 'doggy-styled' crotch sniffin' ...

-- (f**k, it's GROSS!)

-- and how this s**t.

YOU'RE FIRED!

[Ek0nomik]

Aren't we already forced to sign up for selective service?

[Numb]

gavnook wrote: Heinz wrote: Even if there's a draft, which I pray there isn't, it is far from slavery.

Please explain the difference. Surely, you must see the similarities.
Well, slaves arent payed while troops are. Hence, it's not slavery. Still doesn't make it right though.

[Tracker]

That said, I support the draft. Why?

Because every entity in existence has been publicly victimized and threatened by hateful religionists, daily.

WarAgainstThePeople -- WarAgainstNature -- WarAgainstFamily -- WarAgainstEquality -- WarAgainstFreedom -- WarAgainstSpeech, music, clothes, dance, magazines, books, libraries, education, government, human-services, the poor, the single, single-parents, nonstop war against literally everything, in so-called 'positive-godly-goodness,' ...

... goose-stepping in lock-step to the hateful ideology of a 'FinalBattle,' a "LastDay" -- the total global extinction event of the mass-murder of every innocent man, women, child, baby, pet, plant and wildlife in existence, while calling it a 'positive-godly-good-plan,' which is OBVIOUSLY the epitome of HATE.

It's a vast, multi-faceted GLOBAL CRISIS.

They can't PEDDLE their PRODUCT of a fictional life in a fictional off-planet undisclosed location if REAL LIFE is "HeavenlyPeaceOnEarth," so they concoct HELL.

HELL s*cks!

And we have the highest population of ThePeople in prisons/dungeons than in the history of ANY MONARCHY.

EVER.

That would be 'compliments' of hateful religionists in their nonstop HatefulReligiousSupremacy CASTING-OUT and DIVIDING so-called 'beloved-neighbor 'AGAINST BelovedNeighbor in so-called 'positive-goodness.' DeathWorship.

And that is EXACTLY WHY I have cited every religion in existence for CrimesAgainstHumanity.

Even 'spiritualism' has been perverted into the concocted EXCUSE to HATE people 'not spiritual enough for you.'

We have the highest crime rates -- violence -- arson -- robbery -- gay-bashings -- harrassment -- bullying -- boycotts and BlackListings -- all by the so-called 'positive-godly-good-people' in their HATEFUL 'love.'

Look to Iraq to see the MODEL of what religionists version of 'love' TRULY IS. Three seperate religions raping, pillaging, murdering and plundering in so-called 'positive-goodness.' Feel the LOVE?

And who fought AGAINST EQUALITY in the United States and tried to overthrow government and DIVIDE it, concocting CIVIL WAR? Christians did, in their so-called 'positive-goodness,' and used CHEMICAL WEAPONS too. No s**t.

-- "Those types are despised by God!" :roll:

-- and then they perversley sniff your crotch like DOGS and have the audacity to call YOU 'indecent,' in their so-called 'positive-goodness.'

-- and they have ALREADY infiltrated and infected every branch of WeThePeoples' governments and educational institutions in their hateful religionist quest to replace every official and educator with CLERICS or sympathisers.

And they're all armed to the teeth and will resort to violence at the drop of a hat.

I want the draft and I want hateful religious censorship of economy and their concocted promotion of violence STOPPED. I want the military on every street in America until the HatefulReligiousSupremacists' wars have been successfully DEFENDED AGAINST for the benefit of the United States and ALL of WeThePeople, globally -- and BEYOND -- for every generation henceforth.

[Heinz]

Quote: You were talking about signing up voluntarily. I consider that indentured servitude because when you're in the military you cannot simply quit and are considered government property. No other employment contracts are ever enforced the way enlistment contracts are.

You're nto considered government property....That has to be the funniest and most baseless thing I have ever heard. They let you leave if they feel you can't live up to your end of the agreement that you signed. If you can, than you can only blame yourself for joining in the first place.

I'd also tend to think that the reason they are enforced more heavily is because it's a more important job with a far more important role than say, working at Wal-Mart.

Quote: Draft = Involuntary Servitude = Slavery

Involuntary servitude is not slavery. There is a difference. If you are a indentured servant that means you are working of a debt that you owe someone. Slaves owe nothing to nobody but are still forced to work. Don't forget that most indentured servants signed CONTRACTS to be servants if their debtors would pay their way to the new world.

Quote: No Draft = Voluntary Servitude = Not Slavery

Involuntary servitude is not slavery.

Quote: Whatever a conscript gets paid was apparently insufficient to get him to join voluntarily, so he's being compensated less than he would demand for the job, like any other slave.

Nice spin....we get paid all the same. There's much more than the pay that keeps people from joining the Army. The big one i can think of is havign to fight. I like your attempt though.

Quote: Being drafted can destroy great opportunities for some. For many, a draft would cost them far more in lost income than they would receive in the military.

They're still being paid.

Quote: At least these guys somewhat did it to themselves.

What do mean somewhat did? They joined, like I did, on their own.

Fighting is part of being in the military. I know it's hard for you to get since you're not a member.

Quote: Would it be any different if they were paid $150 a month? $1500?

Yes.....and they are getting paid..That makes all the difference.

[sholtz revtek]

Heinz wrote: Quote: You were talking about signing up voluntarily. I consider that indentured servitude because when you're in the military you cannot simply quit and are considered government property. No other employment contracts are ever enforced the way enlistment contracts are.

You're nto considered government property....That has to be the funniest and most baseless thing I have ever heard. They let you leave if they feel you can't live up to your end of the agreement that you signed. If you can, than you can only blame yourself for joining in the first place.

I'd also tend to think that the reason they are enforced more heavily is because it's a more important job with a far more important role than say, working at Wal-Mart.

Quote: Draft = Involuntary Servitude = Slavery

Involuntary servitude is not slavery. There is a difference. If you are a indentured servant that means you are working of a debt that you owe someone. Slaves owe nothing to nobody but are still forced to work. Don't forget that most indentured servants signed CONTRACTS to be servants if their debtors would pay their way to the new world.

Quote: No Draft = Voluntary Servitude = Not Slavery

Involuntary servitude is not slavery.

Quote: Whatever a conscript gets paid was apparently insufficient to get him to join voluntarily, so he's being compensated less than he would demand for the job, like any other slave.

Nice spin....we get paid all the same. There's much more than the pay that keeps people from joining the Army. The big one i can think of is havign to fight. I like your attempt though.

Quote: Being drafted can destroy great opportunities for some. For many, a draft would cost them far more in lost income than they would receive in the military.

They're still being paid.

Quote: At least these guys somewhat did it to themselves.

What do mean somewhat did? They joined, like I did, on their own.

Fighting is part of being in the military. I know it's hard for you to get since you're not a member.

Quote: Would it be any different if they were paid $150 a month? $1500?

Yes.....and they are getting paid..That makes all the difference.

If only those white southerners didn't know about your nifty rule that "makes all the difference". I would have paid my slave(now draftee), 5 cents a year! Buhhahahaha!

Now that might not be fair to the draftee in this case, a hard working man/women. In war however, how can payment ever be fair?

Its almost like people forget that lives are lost in war. The gov could pay me a cool 23 billion a week to serve in Iraq, but what good is it if I get blown up or shot.

oh yeah, getting paid...huge difference

with that said...

I support the draft much like I support cutting my arm off. Do it when you have to!

[Eduffy80911]

Heinz the consistency with which you continue to miss the point is amazing.

In a free society people voluntarily enter into transactions on mutually acceptable terms.

If you give a slave some money, he/she is still a slave.

[Heinz]

Eduffy80911 wrote: Heinz the consistency with which you continue to miss the point is amazing.

In a free society people voluntarily enter into transactions on mutually acceptable terms.

If you give a slave some money, he/she is still a slave.

Trust me...it's nothing like slavery.

How can you even compare the 2?

Quote: If only those white southerners didn't know about your nifty rule that "makes all the difference". I would have paid my slave(now draftee), 5 cents a year! Buhhahahaha!

Did you think of them as property? Were they not considered human? Were they second class?

Draftees aren't considered second-class soldiers. They aren't looked upon as not human and worth no more than cattle.

A draft and slavery are worlds apart.

Quote: oh yeah, getting paid...huge difference

Getting paid, getting benefits after you get back from Iraq, and most importantly, you're not treated like s**t.

[Heinz]

Eduffy80911 wrote: Heinz the consistency with which you continue to miss the point is amazing.

In a free society people voluntarily enter into transactions on mutually acceptable terms.

If you give a slave some money, he/she is still a slave.

Who said that? I said if you DON'T get paid you're a slave.

Still missing that point?

Like I mentioned above, draftees also aren't treated like general s**t and sub-human.

Look, I support thr draft about as much as you guys do, which is pretty nill, but I wouldn't call it slavery...After all you did sign up for it.

:lol:

[JDinPhilly]

Why not re institute the draft? It might actually open up peoples eyes to whats going on with their own country and in the world. If a letter came in the mail and said that you had to report for your physical, your Ipod and cell phone might not seem like the most important thing in the world any more. You might actually care about whom gets voted into office or pay attention to what country your country is bombing or helping. People start giving a siht when their ass is on the line. And maybe the people voting to go to war might think and vote differently if they have family involved. Just a thought :-D

[Heinz]

Quote: People start giving a siht when their ass is on the line. And maybe the people voting to go to war might think and vote differently if they have family involved

Considering the military is 75% Republican, I would venture to say that a good majority of them do have family over there or anywhere.