Political Crossfire Forums

[The Russian]

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/21/news/poison.php

UPDATE: Quote: Initial suspicion had focused on thallium because that colorless, odorless compound causes hair to fall out and has been used in attempted poisonings over the years. But the progress of Litvinenko's symptoms over the past few days has not been typical for thallium poisoning, and the hospital announced that tests results cast doubts of the theory.

"Based on results we have received today and Mr. Litvinenko's clinical features, thallium poisoning is an unlikely cause of his current condition," the hospital announced in a statement late Tuesday.

apparently somebody jumped the gun on calling it Thallium poisoning or attempted assasination... and since the guy himself can point to a specific time and date, even though he got realy ill only several days later, makes me think he set it all up as a publicity stunt to sell his book... maybe he screwd up and took too much of whatever was suppose to seem like it was killing him, but as far as we know, he's still alive.

So, whats more likely... a botched assassination, or a ploy by the author to sell a book about the KGB? later backed up only by a friend who is directly tied to the author? ... both of whoom turn out to be wrong about just how or with what he is allegedly poisoned...

[Timmytour]

The Russian wrote: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/21/news/poison.php

UPDATE: Quote: Initial suspicion had focused on thallium because that colorless, odorless compound causes hair to fall out and has been used in attempted poisonings over the years. But the progress of Litvinenko's symptoms over the past few days has not been typical for thallium poisoning, and the hospital announced that tests results cast doubts of the theory.

"Based on results we have received today and Mr. Litvinenko's clinical features, thallium poisoning is an unlikely cause of his current condition," the hospital announced in a statement late Tuesday.

apparently somebody jumped the gun on calling it Thallium poisoning or attempted assasination... and since the guy himself can point to a specific time and date, even though he got realy ill only several days later, makes me think he set it all up as a publicity stunt to sell his book... maybe he screwd up and took too much of whatever was suppose to seem like it was killing him, but as far as we know, he's still alive.

So, whats more likely... a botched assassination, or a ploy by the author to sell a book about the KGB? later backed up only by a friend who is directly tied to the author? ... both of whoom turn out to be wrong about just how or with what he is allegedly poisoned...

Perhaps there´s something in what you say. Still, I can´t help thinking that not only did things from a democratic point of view come to a shuddering halt in Russia, but they have distinctly turned the other way.

One reason I started a thread about it sometime ago...

http://www.politicalcrossfire.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=68375&highlight=putin

Not that I regard Russia as a military threat so much, but then when has a military power ever really dominated. But I do think that the Russians picked up very early on how naive Bush was in foreign policy. I believe they fed them exactly what they knew they were looking for.

There´s no doubt the Russians were still struggling from the impact of the break up of the Soviet Union and the worldwide condemnation (including what a certain Governor Bush was saying about them) over their tactics in Chechnya.

But they knew from the outset that the Bush administration would go after Saddam. And, if you take away the morality from the situation, I would have to say that I am steeped in admiration for the way Putin has played his hand so brilliantly.

It´s only when my imagination runs riot that I start to believe that Bush´s faults lie not just in his arrogant ignorance, but perhaps in the naive way he has allowed himself to be manipulated by much more intelligent forces.

But perhaps that is stepping into the realms of the Alternate Theories forum :wink:

[sLiPpY]

Lumina wrote: ...a leading Russian critic of Putin's regime has been poisoned in London (near-death by sushi).

Perhaps we shouldn't be overly enthusiastic about linking arms and singing "Kumbaya."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/19/npoison19.xml

Lest anyone forget George HW Bush's CIA background. :wink:

[bob.appleyard]

The Russian wrote: if any one person midst 99% of the US population that chooses to critisize Russia was poisoned, it would be a KGB conspiracy... right?

If that person happened to be a Russian ex-colonel, it would be more plausible.

Quote: do you know how easy it is to get sick off of sushi?... you do realise that if that sushi was just a little bit not fresh he would have gotten sick?... or if the same place prepares foogu in any way, a lot of people could have died?

Yeah, sushi takes all your hair out and puts your near term survival at 50/50

[bob.appleyard]

The Russian wrote: http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/11/21/news/poison.php

UPDATE: Quote: Initial suspicion had focused on thallium because that colorless, odorless compound causes hair to fall out and has been used in attempted poisonings over the years. But the progress of Litvinenko's symptoms over the past few days has not been typical for thallium poisoning, and the hospital announced that tests results cast doubts of the theory.

"Based on results we have received today and Mr. Litvinenko's clinical features, thallium poisoning is an unlikely cause of his current condition," the hospital announced in a statement late Tuesday.

apparently somebody jumped the gun on calling it Thallium poisoning or attempted assasination... and since the guy himself can point to a specific time and date, even though he got realy ill only several days later, makes me think he set it all up as a publicity stunt to sell his book... maybe he screwd up and took too much of whatever was suppose to seem like it was killing him, but as far as we know, he's still alive.

So, whats more likely... a botched assassination, or a ploy by the author to sell a book about the KGB? later backed up only by a friend who is directly tied to the author? ... both of whoom turn out to be wrong about just how or with what he is allegedly poisoned...

So they deliberately claimed the wrong drug had been administered to them? Who's the conspiracy theorist now?

[Sands]

sLiPpY wrote: Lumina wrote: ...a leading Russian critic of Putin's regime has been poisoned in London (near-death by sushi).

Perhaps we shouldn't be overly enthusiastic about linking arms and singing "Kumbaya."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/19/npoison19.xml

Lest anyone forget George HW Bush's CIA background. :wink:

And he wasn't just a desk jockey analyst either. :wink:

[Mr. Sunshine]

Poisoning smacks of KGB. Or, maybe he poisoned himself as part of a masochistic conspiracy to frame the KGB. Tin foil please. :lol:

[ToonArmyIsComing]

The Central Scrutinizer wrote: It's Authoritarianism Lite in Russia, but no one in power in the western Democracies is going to call him out on it until they put a big picture of him up in Red Square. I think only time will tell whether or not Putin's authoritarian actions are to strengthen the Russian federation, or his own power. I'm leaning towards the latter, as it takes a despot to rule a despotism--and no country without a free media can ever be free.

Western Europe is very dependant on Russia for its energy, so I don't think they are in a position to challenge Russia. In effect, Russia has a strong position and unfortunately, no one, including the US, can really challenge them at this point.

[Timmytour]

My mother used to tell of some prophecy, which was something or other to do with the Mother Mary, that had America and Russia becoming friends for twenty years before things started going seriously wrong.

This would have been while the Cold War was still going strong, so the notion always seemed like a fanciful bit of nonsense to me which, being a loving son, I would indulge her in.

All these years later it seems to resonate with more and more about sopmething that´s turning out to be pretty accurate, leastways the 20 years of friendship and the potential for things to start once again going in the opposite way.

Has anyone else heard of this "prophecy"?

Sorry...i realise this is a bit off topic but I´d be interested to know nevertheless.

[Mr. Sunshine]

Timmytour wrote: Has anyone else heard of this "prophecy"?

Sorry...i realise this is a bit off topic but I´d be interested to know nevertheless.

Maybe the kids at Fatima. The prophesy of some who study the works of Nostradamus interpreted his parables to talk of the coming of the third antichrist in the Middle East that is defeated after Russia and the U.S. ally to defeat them. Personally, I think the future is guided by the choices and actions of the day before it. As a devout agnostic, I do not doubt only one thing. If any man lives, he can be killed. The man in the blue turban will live in the cross hairs, if he ever turns from legend into existence. 8:)

[Lumina]

Timmytour wrote: My mother used to tell of some prophecy, which was something or other to do with the Mother Mary, that had America and Russia becoming friends for twenty years before things started going seriously wrong.

This would have been while the Cold War was still going strong, so the notion always seemed like a fanciful bit of nonsense to me which, being a loving son, I would indulge her in.

All these years later it seems to resonate with more and more about sopmething that´s turning out to be pretty accurate, leastways the 20 years of friendship and the potential for things to start once again going in the opposite way.

Has anyone else heard of this "prophecy"?

Sorry...i realise this is a bit off topic but I´d be interested to know nevertheless.

Sounds like you should Google "Fatima."

[[Bible]Monkey]

Timmytour wrote: My mother used to tell of some prophecy, which was something or other to do with the Mother Mary, that had America and Russia becoming friends for twenty years before things started going seriously wrong.

This would have been while the Cold War was still going strong, so the notion always seemed like a fanciful bit of nonsense to me which, being a loving son, I would indulge her in.

All these years later it seems to resonate with more and more about sopmething that´s turning out to be pretty accurate, leastways the 20 years of friendship and the potential for things to start once again going in the opposite way.

Has anyone else heard of this "prophecy"?

Sorry...i realise this is a bit off topic but I´d be interested to know nevertheless.

Hmmm, interesting. The Russian presidents' ( Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin) father ( Vladimir Spiridonovich Putin ) died in August 1999 - he lived six months longer than his wife-whose name was Mary [Maria Ivanovna] .

Many years earlier, and against the wishes of the Soviet state , ( indeed- a criminal act in the Soviet Union) young Vladimir Putin was baptized into the Russian Orthodox Church.

As repayment for this sign of strength of belief in the one true God, and in honour of the Senior Putins passing, the sun fell into a total blackness,

Two days after Putins, inauguration, and at the anniversary of the mid-point between the parents deaths, the planets aligned themselves into a straight line

Quote: On Friday, May 5, 2000, all of the planets that are visible to the naked eye on Earth lined up, roughly, in a straight line. The Earth, Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn lined up..

..."This alignment of planets on 5/5/2000," Chase says, "is also a powerful astrological pattern, which follows the unusual Grand Cross astrology pattern of August 18, 1999, of the planets in an astrological cross shape, a week after the solar eclipse of August 11 1999.

The Grand Cross pattern of August 1999 was the most unusual astrology pattern of the last 2000 years, and could be connected with the rise to power of the Antichrist, as described in the Bible's Book of Revelation.

Your Mother was quite the optimist, in foretelling twenty years of comparative peace.......obviously the Grand planetary alignment ,a once in two millenia event, foretells the rise of the AntiChrist, signified by Putins rise to power in 2000. Let's see, the seven year End Times period may have begun in August 2000, with the Antichrist coming out of Russia, resulting in Armageddon in August 2007 .



:-D Just having fun, but it's surprising how well this stuff sells on the Russian forums. A surprisingly large number of those people actually like having an authoritarian government, and many Russians are developing a strange Religious/superstitious mixed belief system, -possibly evolved from the fact that the State had never repressed the openess and high number of their parables and fables, but did repress and control the Church-with the release of the Church-the subsequent merging of the two is interesting...leading to "offshoot" beliefs like my above post which are not strongly argued against.

Anyway, I hadn't heard of your twenty year prophecy, but I doubt any one person could know the whole tens of thousands of Russian fables and prophecys.......

[Mr. Sunshine]

My vote is for botched assassination with an undiscernable "medication", as the victim is still kicking in the ICU with a 50% mortality potential. All the good KGB went to America to form crime syndicates and a decade later are fully Americanized sending their children to the best schools. :lol:

[Mr. Sunshine]

Let me add that this will be a successful assassination with an unidentified substance, even in autopsy after his death. Perhaps, letting the world watch a slow certain death has more PR value than a traditional poisoning. It is kind of like terrorism to any would be relentless vocal critics. :-|

[Mr. Sunshine]

And he is now dead. It was a success. Let the lesson be learned about being vocal against the Kremlin, I guess. :-|

[The Russian]

I find it odd that they held him for 9 months in a russian prison under the charges of abusing his office and didnt kill him, now that he's pissed about losing his job, he says they fired him for not killing some tycoon, cuz apparently he was the only competent one, and the fact that the tycoon hasnt been killed since, is just because they couldnt find a man good enough to do it!

yet somehow you would believe, they found one good enough to assasinate some crazy author, who was fired form the secret service and has been slandering ever since, as the targets he was supposedly asked to kill, have never been killed by either him, nor some other agents...

funny.

on a side note, theres no way you're getting out of a war in the middle east without russian interference...

I expect the following issues to come up soon:

1: America letting afghanis who hunt taliban for them grow poppy plants, and supply the russian mafia with heroin thats destroying russian society.
2: An ultimatum that the US do something about the poppys and marijuana fields in afghanistan or russia will interfere.
3: A tit-for-tat on Iran, just like right now with the WTO, Russia gets access to american market, american cos get access to russian gas and oil market.
4: Abandonment of Iran, followed by a pre-emptive strike on multiple suspected nuclear facilities.
5: China will not object, as they recieve more russian than Iranian oil, gas, minerals, and raw supplys. Once you have Russia, you'll have China.
6: Either a Utopia or Apocalypse, starting its progression from the middle east.

[Canada_Rocks]

Lumina wrote: ...a leading Russian critic of Putin's regime has been poisoned in London (near-death by sushi).

Perhaps we shouldn't be overly enthusiastic about linking arms and singing "Kumbaya."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/11/19/npoison19.xml

It seems like now adays every Russian was once involved with the KGB.

[Lumina]

The Russian wrote: I find it odd that they held him for 9 months in a russian prison under the charges of abusing his office and didnt kill him, now that he's pissed about losing his job, he says they fired him for not killing some tycoon, cuz apparently he was the only competent one, and the fact that the tycoon hasnt been killed since, is just because they couldnt find a man good enough to do it!

yet somehow you would believe, they found one good enough to assasinate some crazy author, who was fired form the secret service and has been slandering ever since, as the targets he was supposedly asked to kill, have never been killed by either him, nor some other agents...

funny.

on a side note, theres no way you're getting out of a war in the middle east without russian interference...

I expect the following issues to come up soon:

1: America letting afghanis who hunt taliban for them grow poppy plants, and supply the russian mafia with heroin thats destroying russian society.
2: An ultimatum that the US do something about the poppys and marijuana fields in afghanistan or russia will interfere.
3: A tit-for-tat on Iran, just like right now with the WTO, Russia gets access to american market, american cos get access to russian gas and oil market.
4: Abandonment of Iran, followed by a pre-emptive strike on multiple suspected nuclear facilities.
5: China will not object, as they recieve more russian than Iranian oil, gas, minerals, and raw supplys. Once you have Russia, you'll have China.
6: Either a Utopia or Apocalypse, starting its progression from the middle east.

Please see Orwell's [i]1984[/] and why, according to O'Brien, Winston needed to love Big Brother.

[Mr. Sunshine]

Quote: LONDON — In a charge from the grave, a former Russian spy who died Thursday night at a London hospital accused Russian president Vladimir Putin of poisoning him in a statement prepared before his death and read Friday.

"You have shown yourself to have no respect for life, liberty or any civilized value. You have shown yourself to be unworthy of your office, to be unworthy of the trust of civilized men and women," Alexander Litvinenko said in the statement read aloud by his friends.

Quote: Scaramella told reporters in Rome on Tuesday that he had traveled to meet Litvinenko to discuss an e-mail he received from a source naming the killers of Politkovskaya, who was gunned down Oct. 7 at her Moscow apartment building, and outlining that he and Litvinenko were on a hit list..."What's in there confirms what Scaramella said. It lists several targets for assassination, among them are Politkovskaya, Litvinenko, Scaramella, Berezovsky and others," he said. But he refused to say who compiled the document.

Quote: "I want to survive, just to show them," he said in the interview was published in Friday's edition of the paper, copies of which were available late Thursday. They "got me, but they won't get everybody." [any AP link]

I can only wonder if it was worth it for all of those on the list to confront the Kremlin publicly and persistently. Personally, I think there are smaller fish to fry. 8:)

[cyberrate]

Facts:

1. Former KGB spy poisoned in London.
2. He was known for his anti-Putin views.
(Tho he was never a "leading Putin critic", anyone heard of him before?)
3. He died 24 days after he was poisoned, which means that whatever the poison was it caused a slow and painful death.
4. The case of poisoning has attracted a massive media attention. The pictures of Litvinenko in very bad condition are everywhere.
5. The day he dies (November 24th) Putin arrives to Helsinki to attend the Russia - EU summit where the question of Russia joining the WTO was to be discussed.


So if Putin poisoned Litvinenko he would have to be stupid enough to:

Choose the poison that will kill slowly and painfully in front of the whole world. And than go to Russia-EU summit which would have been the major step forward for Russia.


Who would benifit from Litvinenko's poisoning?
Russia? - no
Putin? - definitley not.

If you look at the big picture you will see that the last thing that Putin needed before the Russia-EU Summit was the poisoning of his critic.