Political Crossfire Forums

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

Chymical wrote:
Comrade, I don't think anyone suggested putting it in join religious hands, that would obviously be rank stupidity, what was mooted was it being an international city administered by the UN. What do you reckon as to a UN protectorate over Jerusalum? better then what we have or worse, I know the UN is not the most wonderful epitome of eficientcy, but they certainly have legitimacy to do this more then the Brits/yanks or dare I say Jooooos...

well it's a religious city and at heart a religious matter. i don't think the UN has any business getting itself involved in a religious affair.

and to be honest i only think it'll help christian, jewish, and muslim extremists hate the UN even more.

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:16 pm Post subject:

Well if they don't who else will, all I know is if the Israeli's try to tighten their monopoly or push East there's going to be heck to pay. I think the UN idea is the best shot Jerusalum has of longer term survival, the lines on the ground being what they are.

Anyway, thanks for explaining more about the roman triumverate thing :)

Saying it's a religious matter won't provide much comfort when it's bombed to heck over religious infighting. Typical of the UN pussyfooting that they haven't had the cojones to push for this themselves I mean...think of the extra funding!

nuff said...

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

there isn't a good solution really. the UN is just going to inflame everyone. if a single religion controls is(as is the current case)it's just going to draw alot of flak to said religion. and dividing it up is going to lead to a mini-holy war.

i truly don't have the solution. i wish i did. it would make things alot easier.

perhaps if it was bombed to hell it would be for the better?

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:22 pm Post subject:

Maybe maybe, but a lot of those religions end times hoopla starts with something horrible happening to Jeruslaum, I think whatever happens, these nutters are going to kick off...if only so they can kick off more in indignation.

erm kick-off = English Speak for going mental btw ;)

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8682 Location: Petah Tikva

Quote: Dude, restraint would be leaving those people's land alone. Would you feel ok if you got a warning Hamas was going to blow your house up, so get out......sorry about the house man, s*cks to be you, but hey, you're alive, that's because we're restrained? Would you feel that's "restraint?"

If I was at war with someone trying to destroy them and I was an active militant harboring weapons, then I would be enormously greatful for receiving far more than is due in a phone call to warn me so people dont die.

Quote: No genius, I'm saying that Palestinians should do this because it worked for Gandhi.

It worked because the British required the Indians to run the country and had no country of their own in the region.

Quote: I haven't been around PCF for very long, but it seems to me that the world is starting to wake up to Israel's behaviour. Maybe it is a new thing around here to be critical of Israel, but ask yourself why. Was it taboo to criticise Israel before? Did those who spoke out get accused of anti-semitism?

It's never been taboo even on here, and it has been an open topic since 1948.

Quote: BTW people keep saying he was given 24 hours notice to get out (kind Israel) but according to the news last night he was warned 30 minutes in advance.

30 minutes is a great deal of time when it comes to leaving the scene of an incoming bombing raid.

Quote: What I was trying to say (before you twisted my words) was that Palestinians should take a cue from Gandhi and stop killing Israeli civilians, that way when Israel keeps killing and oppressing Paelstinians the rest of the world will wake up and make them stop.

The second they stop fighting we cease having a reason to fight. No militant groups means nothing for the IDF to target and no reason for us to remain engaged and it will accelerate to an enormous degree the creation of a Palestinian state.

Quote: 400 deaths eh? I wonder how many these 'rockets' have killed...

Operation Summer Rains has claimed the lives of some 257 militants and some 112 civilians, as well as 12 or so policemen, PA authorities, and security officials.

Autumn Clouds has killed 38 militants and 15 civilians. Adding the 19 killed in the misfire a few days ago which was not part of Autumn Clouds but was close in proximity so I have added it.

In all some 295 militants and some 146 civilians have been killed in both of the operations in Gaza.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Israel-Gaza_conflict_casualties_timeline

Here is a list from Summer Rains with every single day, death, and event sourced at the bottom with over 190 sources to sift through if you are interested.

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:50 pm Post subject:

how many died from rockets then? 6? 7? OMG...8?

In return over 400 innocent and massively oppressed palestinians suffer...

proportionate stuff

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8682 Location: Petah Tikva

As I clearly listed and documented it is not 400 innocent civilians.

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject:

ok, so by your own figures your 140 over, palestinian lives for isrealis lives...

well done! have a cookie!

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8682 Location: Petah Tikva

You utterly missed the point, this has been a military operation conducted almost entirely in urban environments and major cities against militant forces. We have over the course of this eleminated some 15 Qassam rocket batteries and killed nearly 300 militants, with a minority being civilian fatilities an inevitable result of conducting operations inside urban zones and having combat there.

Nelson · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:29 pm Post subject:

Chymical wrote: ok, so by your own figures your 140 over, palestinian lives for isrealis lives...

well done! have a cookie!

As can be seen by the creation of this thread - the Palestinians are purposely shielding militants who are lobbing rockets into Israel. These Palestinian 'civilians' shield militants by staying nearby them and hoping that Israel will be swayed from attacking back after rocket strikes.

Israel cannot simply stand there and accept hundreds of rocket strikes, even if the Palestinians are not successful enough to kill nearly as many Israeli civilians going about their business as they would like. Israel, as shown in this article, even takes the steps of warning its targets before strikes on missile launching areas in order to eliminate civilian casualties.

I don't know about you, but even if an enemy country sent soldiers to rape and torture my entire family, I would never, ever, strike back by purposely attempting to kill the innocent people of that country. If Israel ever employed an open government policy of purposely targetting civilians in order to inflict pain upon the Palestinian people, I would cease to support Israel - regardless of my religion.

You don't need to provide me links of alleged Israel targetting of Palestinian civilians, I will read the news myself if Israel changes its policy ;).

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:31 pm Post subject:

I think YOU missed the point. The Jews have become what they once most feared: Seperatist, Supremacist Ghetto-creating and generally ethnically oppressive nazis.

There i said it, now you get to call me anti-semitic and we leave it at that.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 8682 Location: Petah Tikva

I'm not going to call you an Anti-Semite, I dont think you hate Jews. I just think your a complete and utter fool lacking in true knowledge to even attempt to make such an obscene comparison. And you have completely deflected from answering my point.

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 9:44 pm Post subject:

Your point? Yes you have to defend yourself, but like the USA you brought 99% of it upon yourselves. No sympathy here. you think all those 'militants' just sprang out of some evil primordial soup? Israel like USA creates the enemies it needs. Good luck to you all, Jew Muslim and infidel alike, the less houses IDF demolish, the less militants AND civilians killed on both sides the better. That's why I posted this thread, not to bash Israel, although perhaps it's turned into that, but to celebrate that thing can be done differently.

nw it's Israels turn to do things differently, will they accept killing hundreds of civilians for each person on their hit-list? Or will they think of something smarter, I know what I'm rooting for.

Guess what the ironic thing is Skippy? My muslim friends often think I'm pro-israel! you can't win can you?

cool_chick · Joined: 26 Dec 2004 Posts: 21323 Location: Chicago

Nelson wrote: Chymical wrote: ok, so by your own figures your 140 over, palestinian lives for isrealis lives...

well done! have a cookie!

As can be seen by the creation of this thread - the Palestinians are purposely shielding militants who are lobbing rockets into Israel. These Palestinian 'civilians' shield militants by staying nearby them and hoping that Israel will be swayed from attacking back after rocket strikes.

Can you link to the presumed Palestinian rocket strike you mention here and while you're at it, the link that it was coming from wherever they were supposedly "striking back"?

CountryGuy · Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 1152 Location: Pennsylvania

cool_chick wrote: CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote: CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote: superskippy wrote: We certaintly show restraint, isnt that the whole point of this article? What other army in the world telephones ahead to make sure the people can get away safely before bombing a target? Now I fear we will have to cut down on doing that to prevent this from happening again and more people will die.

Dude, restraint would be leaving those people's land alone. Would you feel ok if you got a warning Hamas was going to blow your house up, so get out......sorry about the house man, s*cks to be you, but hey, you're alive, that's because we're restrained? Would you feel that's "restraint?"

How can they leave them alone, when rockets are fired from said lands on a daily basis into Israel's cities?? Please share.

Well, that would be because rockets are NOT being fired from said lands into Israel's cities on a daily basis. However, bulldozing, bombs and guns ARE being fired into Palestinian lands on a daily basis. DAILY.

You didn't answer the question -- How do they prevent the rockets without attacking the launch sites?

How do the Palestinians do that? I don't know. Nothing seems to work. Even peaceful resistance has become "human shields" to you guys. Nothing will work for those people apparently except total extermination and subservient control of their land...just shut up and deal with overcrowding and deal with us bombing and bulldozing your land for new settlements. Guess that's all they can do to make you happy, but I don't think I could handle that if it were my home being bulldozed for a new "settlement"...that would SUCK......

Peaceful resistance would imply they were being peaceful -- That's not what the person they were protecting was about. He is not a man of peace, but a militant. Don't demean the term "peaceful resistance" by applying it to this man.

Stop applying the usual "But they did x" replys, and answer the damn question -- How does Israel protect itself without applying force? I think you're absolutely spot-on that peaceful resistance is the way to go, but that's not happening. You're getting people launching rockets, then having civilians stand around and within the buildings used to plan and coordinate.

That's not peaceful resistance. Not even close.

cool_chick · Joined: 26 Dec 2004 Posts: 21323 Location: Chicago

CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote: CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote: CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote: superskippy wrote: We certaintly show restraint, isnt that the whole point of this article? What other army in the world telephones ahead to make sure the people can get away safely before bombing a target? Now I fear we will have to cut down on doing that to prevent this from happening again and more people will die.

Dude, restraint would be leaving those people's land alone. Would you feel ok if you got a warning Hamas was going to blow your house up, so get out......sorry about the house man, s*cks to be you, but hey, you're alive, that's because we're restrained? Would you feel that's "restraint?"

How can they leave them alone, when rockets are fired from said lands on a daily basis into Israel's cities?? Please share.

Well, that would be because rockets are NOT being fired from said lands into Israel's cities on a daily basis. However, bulldozing, bombs and guns ARE being fired into Palestinian lands on a daily basis. DAILY.

You didn't answer the question -- How do they prevent the rockets without attacking the launch sites?

How do the Palestinians do that? I don't know. Nothing seems to work. Even peaceful resistance has become "human shields" to you guys. Nothing will work for those people apparently except total extermination and subservient control of their land...just shut up and deal with overcrowding and deal with us bombing and bulldozing your land for new settlements. Guess that's all they can do to make you happy, but I don't think I could handle that if it were my home being bulldozed for a new "settlement"...that would SUCK......

Peaceful resistance would imply they were being peaceful -- That's not what the person they were protecting was about. He is not a man of peace, but a militant. Don't demean the term "peaceful resistance" by applying it to this man.

Stop applying the usual "But they did x" replys, and answer the damn question -- How does Israel protect itself without applying force? I think you're absolutely spot-on that peaceful resistance is the way to go, but that's not happening. You're getting people launching rockets, then having civilians stand around and within the buildings used to plan and coordinate.

That's not peaceful resistance. Not even close.

1. How do you KNOW who or what this guy and every other house that's been blown up on almost a daily basis?

2. Based on your conditions, it's acceptable for this to happen to an IDF soldier's house?

CountryGuy · Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 1152 Location: Pennsylvania

cool_chick wrote:

1. How do you KNOW who or what this guy and every other house that's been blown up on almost a daily basis?

2. Based on your conditions, it's acceptable for this to happen to an IDF soldier's house?

1. Because in the original article here, he is well known as a Commander in the Popular Resistance Committee's militant group. There are other articles laying out the same thing. Please don't pretend that he's some sort of innocent -- He's the wrong choice if you're trying to lay out that argument.

2. In honesty? Yes. The question is: Would the PRC (or Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) give the same sort of consideration for human life, by letting the officer know the time they were going to attack, so deaths could be prevented?

cool_chick · Joined: 26 Dec 2004 Posts: 21323 Location: Chicago

CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote:

1. How do you KNOW who or what this guy and every other house that's been blown up on almost a daily basis?

2. Based on your conditions, it's acceptable for this to happen to an IDF soldier's house?

1. Because in the original article here, he is well known as a Commander in the Popular Resistance Committee's militant group. There are other articles laying out the same thing. Please don't pretend that he's some sort of innocent -- He's the wrong choice if you're trying to lay out that argument.

2. In honesty? Yes. The question is: Would the PRC (or Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) give the same sort of consideration for human life, by letting the officer know the time they were going to attack, so deaths could be prevented?

In my opinion, these things should be handled by the Palestinian military....but NO....they're not allowed to have one. They're not allowed to have sh!t to defend themselves.

Israel can bomb at will all they want, every single day, and all they have to say was "suspected terrorist" and ya'll just fall at their feet and claim "defense". Dude, that's not what's going on. It may be in some cases, but the IDF bombs and destroys and bulldozes and kills ALL THE TIME, then they blame the Palestinians for EVERYTHING.

I feel for Israel, I know it hasn't been easy before......up until the time they got aggressive after attaining military might. They've been clearly the aggressors for many years now.

I still feel for the innocent Israelis, it's not right. But if I was one of them, there is no way I'd buy in one of those stolen settlements though....

The bottom line is, Israel NEEDS the resources, water and such is kinda scarce there, and so they've crowded the Palestinians into refugee camps and deplorable conditions in the West Bank.

I'm sorry, this isn't about "Israel" or "Palestinian" to me, this is about doing right. And Sharon was finally doing right, and his cabinet was PISSED OFF MAJORLY. As soon as he had that stroke, I knew right then and there the Israelis would start aggressive tactics and, they did right on queue. I secretly wonder if his cabinet did something to Sharon, this is just a nagging thought in the back of my mind.

CountryGuy · Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 1152 Location: Pennsylvania

cool_chick wrote: CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote:

1. How do you KNOW who or what this guy and every other house that's been blown up on almost a daily basis?

2. Based on your conditions, it's acceptable for this to happen to an IDF soldier's house?

1. Because in the original article here, he is well known as a Commander in the Popular Resistance Committee's militant group. There are other articles laying out the same thing. Please don't pretend that he's some sort of innocent -- He's the wrong choice if you're trying to lay out that argument.

2. In honesty? Yes. The question is: Would the PRC (or Hamas, Hezbollah, etc.) give the same sort of consideration for human life, by letting the officer know the time they were going to attack, so deaths could be prevented?

In my opinion, these things should be handled by the Palestinian military....but NO....they're not allowed to have one. They're not allowed to have sh!t to defend themselves.

Israel can bomb at will all they want, every single day, and all they have to say was "suspected terrorist" and ya'll just fall at their feet and claim "defense". Dude, that's not what's going on. It may be in some cases, but the IDF bombs and destroys and bulldozes and kills ALL THE TIME, then they blame the Palestinians for EVERYTHING.

I feel for Israel, I know it hasn't been easy before......up until the time they got aggressive after attaining military might. They've been clearly the aggressors for many years now.

I still feel for the innocent Israelis, it's not right. But if I was one of them, there is no way I'd buy in one of those stolen settlements though....

The bottom line is, Israel NEEDS the resources, water and such is kinda scarce there, and so they've crowded the Palestinians into refugee camps and deplorable conditions in the West Bank.

I'm sorry, this isn't about "Israel" or "Palestinian" to me, this is about doing right. And Sharon was finally doing right, and his cabinet was PISSED OFF MAJORLY. As soon as he had that stroke, I knew right then and there the Israelis would start aggressive tactics and, they did right on queue. I secretly wonder if his cabinet did something to Sharon, this is just a nagging thought in the back of my mind.

To be clear, I don't think Israel's policy on tit for tat attacks, and precision strikes on each and every leader of the militant organizations is the right path, either. I think there are occasions where crossing the border is warranted, but I don't believe its nearly as often as Israel does.

However, its very frustrating to watch the occasions where Israel has shown restraint and was rewarded with additional attacks. Also, its frustrating when the opportunity for Palestine to get what it truly wants -- freedom -- Is right there, but for the sake of militants doesn't get it. A year, if not a few months, of true peace would give the world community the ammunition it needs to continue step by step to the path of freedom for Palestine.

You brought up a Palestinian Army. A question for you -- Even if one was created, do you really think the militias would disarm, or fall into rank with this army? That's the quandry.

cool_chick · Joined: 26 Dec 2004 Posts: 21323 Location: Chicago

CountryGuy wrote:

To be clear, I don't think Israel's policy on tit for tat attacks, and precision strikes on each and every leader of the militant organizations is the right path, either. I think there are occasions where crossing the border is warranted, but I don't believe its nearly as often as Israel does.

It's not a "tit for tat". It's tit, tit, tit, tit, tit, tit, little tat (palestinian), tit, tit, tit, tit, tit, tit, little tat (palestinian).

Quote: However, its very frustrating to watch the occasions where Israel has shown restraint and was rewarded with additional attacks. Also, its frustrating when the opportunity for Palestine to get what it truly wants -- freedom -- Is right there, but for the sake of militants doesn't get it. A year, if not a few months, of true peace would give the world community the ammunition it needs to continue step by step to the path of freedom for Palestine.

The Israelis barely show restraint. When the fighting starts again, it's always the Israelis who start it. Look up the peace deal between Abbas/Sharon. What started the fighting again (hint, it started with another of the oh so typical "excursion" with the usual resultant effect we're so used to into Palestinins area). It's what they do. This stuff is on page 20 of the news, buried, or not even reported (look at the "excursion" about page2 or so into this thread, bet you never heard of it).

Quote: You brought up a Palestinian Army. A question for you -- Even if one was created, do you really think the militias would disarm, or fall into rank with this army? That's the quandry.

The militias wouldn't have even formed if the Palestinians were allowed to defend themselves against Israeli might in the first place.