Political Crossfire Forums

Clarino · Joined: 29 Oct 2006 Posts: 3658 Location: Oop North

JRM4833 wrote: Clarino wrote: Hey, worked for Gandhi.

And there it is. The place has become so anti-Israel that people are now actually comparing Palestinians to Ghandi. :lol:

No genius, I'm saying that Palestinians should do this because it worked for Gandhi. :roll:

JRM4833 wrote:
Are you seriously saying that anti-Israel isn't the new popular stance among PCFers? It sprung up here almost overnight while I've been away and now everytime I come back P&G is flooded with these threads.

I haven't been around PCF for very long, but it seems to me that the world is starting to wake up to Israel's behaviour. Maybe it is a new thing around here to be critical of Israel, but ask yourself why. Was it taboo to criticise Israel before? Did those who spoke out get accused of anti-semitism?

JRM4833 wrote: People can be anti-whatever they want ... but at least call it what it is. It's not anti-Semetic; It's anti-Israel. They believe that Israel, as a country, is evil and that they don't deserve to exist. Ease up ... if I wanted to say something like that I would.

Opposing Israeli actions is not saying Israel shouldn't exist. But it always leads to someone (usually this person is Jewish) making an accusation of anti-semitism. I never said Israel was evil. I never said it shouldn't exist. I say they have done and continue to do things which civilised nations do not do.

JRM4833 wrote: Feel free to answer the question though ... is acting as a human shield (many of them armed with machine guns) to protect militant terrorists something that can be compared to the work of Ghandi?

Make a straw man arguement why don't you? What proof do you have that the man was a militant? Israel said so? :lol: You believe everything they say? Not long ago they blew up a house with eighteen people in it (many of them children) and said it was a "technical error". Did you believe them then too?

BTW people keep saying he was given 24 hours notice to get out (kind Israel) but according to the news last night he was warned 30 minutes in advance.

What I was trying to say (before you twisted my words) was that Palestinians should take a cue from Gandhi and stop killing Israeli civilians, that way when Israel keeps killing and oppressing Paelstinians the rest of the world will wake up and make them stop.

milton friedman · Joined: 02 Jul 2005 Posts: 1300

Yoadm wrote: Theres a "tiny" difference between Likud and Hamas:

- Likud wants peace, but is not willing to give up land in order to attain it.

- Hamas wants an unending war until the obliteration of Israel.

One is a party that, though desiring peace, does not want to give any consessions, while the other was created for the sole purpose of war.
Get it?

Back to the original article: This was no "peacefull" protest against occupation. This was an attempted arrest by the IDF of a militant responsible for countless attacks against Israeli communities. The militant surrounded himself by civilians, and as a result, the IDF withdrew... yeah.... hurray! terror works!

Unfortounately no, they do not get it

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 10:24 am Post subject:

Gandhi As A Terrorist

http://kurtnimmo.com/?p=597

milton friedman · Joined: 02 Jul 2005 Posts: 1300

DMS wrote: Yoadm wrote: Theres a "tiny" difference between Likud and Hamas:

- Likud wants peace, but is not willing to give up land in order to attain it.

- Hamas wants an unending war until the obliteration of Israel.

One is a party that, though desiring peace, does not want to give any consessions, while the other was created for the sole purpose of war.
Get it?

Back to the original article: This was no "peacefull" protest against occupation. This was an attempted arrest by the IDF of a militant responsible for countless attacks against Israeli communities. The militant surrounded himself by civilians, and as a result, the IDF withdrew... yeah.... hurray! terror works!

One is a party of corrupt war profiteers one is a party of radical nutcases that were pretty much created by Israeli government to begin with.

Case in point

JRM4833 · Joined: 06 Sep 2004 Posts: 23138 Location: Red Sox Dugout

Clarino wrote: JRM4833 wrote: Clarino wrote: Hey, worked for Gandhi.

And there it is. The place has become so anti-Israel that people are now actually comparing Palestinians to Ghandi. :lol:

No genius, I'm saying that Palestinians should do this because it worked for Gandhi. :roll:

Well genius, they are not. Instead they are running around with machine guns and missiles. The reason for this is that they have no interest in peace.

Clarino wrote: JRM4833 wrote: Are you seriously saying that anti-Israel isn't the new popular stance among PCFers? It sprung up here almost overnight while I've been away and now everytime I come back P&G is flooded with these threads.

I haven't been around PCF for very long, but it seems to me that the world is starting to wake up to Israel's behaviour. Maybe it is a new thing around here to be critical of Israel, but ask yourself why. Was it taboo to criticise Israel before? Did those who spoke out get accused of anti-semitism?

Not really. That's just PCF. And one thing I can say for certain is that PCF does not reflect the beliefs of the nation or world in general.

My answer to your question would be no. Sure it happened, but that doesn't mean you can base your argument on it. That's called anecdotal ... pick out the bad apples and claim it's the norm.

Clarino wrote: JRM4833 wrote: People can be anti-whatever they want ... but at least call it what it is. It's not anti-Semetic; It's anti-Israel. They believe that Israel, as a country, is evil and that they don't deserve to exist. Ease up ... if I wanted to say something like that I would.

Opposing Israeli actions is not saying Israel shouldn't exist. But it always leads to someone (usually this person is Jewish) making an accusation of anti-semitism. I never said Israel was evil. I never said it shouldn't exist. I say they have done and continue to do things which civilised nations do not do.

Maybe you should check out more of the threads around here before you respond to my post referencing the threads around here. A great deal of people here believe they should not exist as a country.

And I kind of have to get this out ... get off the damn anti-Semitism people!! Is that all you have? Is that the best argument you can make? Because I didn't bring it up. Nobody ever seems to bring it up except those that support Palestine. And yet you have the nerve to accuse me of straw men?

Clarino wrote: JRM4833 wrote: Feel free to answer the question though ... is acting as a human shield (many of them armed with machine guns) to protect militant terrorists something that can be compared to the work of Ghandi?

Make a straw man arguement why don't you? What proof do you have that the man was a militant? Israel said so? :lol: You believe everything they say? Not long ago they blew up a house with eighteen people in it (many of them children) and said it was a "technical error". Did you believe them then too?

It's far from a straw man argument. You made the Ghandi comparison. Now don't try to weasle your way out of it. Defend your statement. Answer the question. All the articles discussing this issue clearly state that there were two militants in the home and that many of the "human shields" were armed with machine guns. What is your claim? That Israel just felt like bombing a random house?

It seems pretty clear that you are the one believing everything you're fed.

Clarino wrote: BTW people keep saying he was given 24 hours notice to get out (kind Israel) but according to the news last night he was warned 30 minutes in advance.

How much time is usually given before attacks during war?

Clarino wrote: What I was trying to say (before you twisted my words) was that Palestinians should take a cue from Gandhi and stop killing Israeli civilians, that way when Israel keeps killing and oppressing Paelstinians the rest of the world will wake up and make them stop.

I certainly didn't have to twist your words, but I am glad to see that you are backing out of your Ghandi comparison as it was quite inaccurate.

As for your wish ... don't get your hopes up:

The Human Shields wrote: Death to Israel. Death to America.

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject:

OMG! It Happened Again!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6164666.stm

Quote: For years Palestinians have been completely at the mercy of the Israeli air force, but they clearly believe that now they have found a weakness, our correspondent says.

He says if the Palestinians know an attack is coming they can probably foil it by massing in the target zone.

The Israelis can no longer expect to limit civilian casualties by calling ahead and clearing people out, our correspondent adds.

Israeli forces have made regular incursions into Gaza and the West Bank following the capture of an Israeli soldier, Cpl Gilad Shalit, in a cross-border raid by Palestinian militants on 25 June.

About 400 Palestinians, many of them civilians, have been killed in the attacks.

Israel says that these raids are an attempt to stop rocket fire into Israel by Palestinian militants.

400 deaths eh? I wonder how many these 'rockets' have killed...

CountryGuy · Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 1117 Location: Pennsylvania

cool_chick wrote: superskippy wrote: We certaintly show restraint, isnt that the whole point of this article? What other army in the world telephones ahead to make sure the people can get away safely before bombing a target? Now I fear we will have to cut down on doing that to prevent this from happening again and more people will die.

Dude, restraint would be leaving those people's land alone. Would you feel ok if you got a warning Hamas was going to blow your house up, so get out......sorry about the house man, s*cks to be you, but hey, you're alive, that's because we're restrained? Would you feel that's "restraint?"

How can they leave them alone, when rockets are fired from said lands on a daily basis into Israel's cities?? Please share.

CountryGuy · Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 1117 Location: Pennsylvania

The "Ghandi" idea is a very good one, whoever brought that up. If the Palestinians followed a policy of peaceful resistance, they would have their homeland within a few years, tops.

The only stumbling block would be Jerusalem -- I seriously think that should be jointly run by clerics for the "Big Three" religions there, and outside of the control of either country; In other words, something similar to Vatican City.

I doubt this will ever happen, as guns = power in Palestine presently. But it is a great idea.

cool_chick · Joined: 26 Dec 2004 Posts: 21295 Location: Chicago

JRM4833 wrote: cool_chick wrote: JRM4833 wrote: Clarino wrote: Hey, worked for Gandhi.

And there it is. The place has become so anti-Israel that people are now actually comparing Palestinians to Ghandi. :lol:

How does not approving of Israel's aggressive actions become twisted and demented to mean "Anti-Israel" to you? What do you mean by that? Do you think we're anti-seminites or something? If this is what you mean, that's highly offensive thing to say about someone....you're calling Clarino and by proxy me essentially a racist....

If you don't mean this, what exactly do you mean by "anti-Israel?" Are you an "anti-Palestinian" or something?

Are you seriously saying that anti-Israel isn't the new popular stance among PCFers? It sprung up here almost overnight while I've been away and now everytime I come back P&G is flooded with these threads.

Yes, that's what I'm saying.

Quote: People can be anti-whatever they want ... but at least call it what it is. It's not anti-Semetic; It's anti-Israel. They believe that Israel, as a country, is evil and that they don't deserve to exist. Ease up ... if I wanted to say something like that I would.

No they don't. You're making stuff up, trying to be all dramatic. Quit being silly. You're better than this.

Well actually, if you actually believe what you write here, then I feel so sorry for you.

Are you anti-Palestinian or something?

Quote: Feel free to answer the question though ... is acting as a human shield (many of them armed with machine guns) to protect militant terrorists something that can be compared to the work of Ghandi?

First of all, I don't see it as "acting as a human shield." I see it as protecting yet another house from being bombed like is done on a daily basis for like EVER without any sort of proof it's warranted. They can say anythign, you lap it up like the gullible one that you are. What proof do you have that this is a terrorist?

I answered yours, you answer my question now. Are you anti-palestinian?

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

CountryGuy wrote: The only stumbling block would be Jerusalem -- I seriously think that should be jointly run by clerics for the "Big Three" religions there, and outside of the control of either country; In other words, something similar to Vatican City.

what did the roman triumverate teach us about splitting up territory?

cool_chick · Joined: 26 Dec 2004 Posts: 21295 Location: Chicago

CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote: superskippy wrote: We certaintly show restraint, isnt that the whole point of this article? What other army in the world telephones ahead to make sure the people can get away safely before bombing a target? Now I fear we will have to cut down on doing that to prevent this from happening again and more people will die.

Dude, restraint would be leaving those people's land alone. Would you feel ok if you got a warning Hamas was going to blow your house up, so get out......sorry about the house man, s*cks to be you, but hey, you're alive, that's because we're restrained? Would you feel that's "restraint?"

How can they leave them alone, when rockets are fired from said lands on a daily basis into Israel's cities?? Please share.

Well, that would be because rockets are NOT being fired from said lands into Israel's cities on a daily basis. However, bulldozing, bombs and guns ARE being fired into Palestinian lands on a daily basis. DAILY.

cool_chick · Joined: 26 Dec 2004 Posts: 21295 Location: Chicago

Chymical wrote: OMG! It Happened Again!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/6164666.stm

Quote: For years Palestinians have been completely at the mercy of the Israeli air force, but they clearly believe that now they have found a weakness, our correspondent says.

He says if the Palestinians know an attack is coming they can probably foil it by massing in the target zone.

The Israelis can no longer expect to limit civilian casualties by calling ahead and clearing people out, our correspondent adds.

Israeli forces have made regular incursions into Gaza and the West Bank following the capture of an Israeli soldier, Cpl Gilad Shalit, in a cross-border raid by Palestinian militants on 25 June.

About 400 Palestinians, many of them civilians, have been killed in the attacks.

Israel says that these raids are an attempt to stop rocket fire into Israel by Palestinian militants.

400 deaths eh? I wonder how many these 'rockets' have killed...

I want proof of all these supposed "rockets" being fired into Israel...and "on a daily basis." I think it's a lie.

CountryGuy · Joined: 04 Feb 2006 Posts: 1117 Location: Pennsylvania

cool_chick wrote: CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote: superskippy wrote: We certaintly show restraint, isnt that the whole point of this article? What other army in the world telephones ahead to make sure the people can get away safely before bombing a target? Now I fear we will have to cut down on doing that to prevent this from happening again and more people will die.

Dude, restraint would be leaving those people's land alone. Would you feel ok if you got a warning Hamas was going to blow your house up, so get out......sorry about the house man, s*cks to be you, but hey, you're alive, that's because we're restrained? Would you feel that's "restraint?"

How can they leave them alone, when rockets are fired from said lands on a daily basis into Israel's cities?? Please share.

Well, that would be because rockets are NOT being fired from said lands into Israel's cities on a daily basis. However, bulldozing, bombs and guns ARE being fired into Palestinian lands on a daily basis. DAILY.

You didn't answer the question -- How do they prevent the rockets without attacking the launch sites?

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:30 pm Post subject:

The Comrade wrote: CountryGuy wrote: The only stumbling block would be Jerusalem -- I seriously think that should be jointly run by clerics for the "Big Three" religions there, and outside of the control of either country; In other words, something similar to Vatican City.

what did the roman triumverate teach us about splitting up territory?

how would that possibly apply? :think:

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

Chymical wrote:

how would that possibly apply? :think:

long story short it ended in a huge war.

cool_chick · Joined: 26 Dec 2004 Posts: 21295 Location: Chicago

CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote: CountryGuy wrote: cool_chick wrote: superskippy wrote: We certaintly show restraint, isnt that the whole point of this article? What other army in the world telephones ahead to make sure the people can get away safely before bombing a target? Now I fear we will have to cut down on doing that to prevent this from happening again and more people will die.

Dude, restraint would be leaving those people's land alone. Would you feel ok if you got a warning Hamas was going to blow your house up, so get out......sorry about the house man, s*cks to be you, but hey, you're alive, that's because we're restrained? Would you feel that's "restraint?"

How can they leave them alone, when rockets are fired from said lands on a daily basis into Israel's cities?? Please share.

Well, that would be because rockets are NOT being fired from said lands into Israel's cities on a daily basis. However, bulldozing, bombs and guns ARE being fired into Palestinian lands on a daily basis. DAILY.

You didn't answer the question -- How do they prevent the rockets without attacking the launch sites?

How do the Palestinians do that? I don't know. Nothing seems to work. Even peaceful resistance has become "human shields" to you guys. Nothing will work for those people apparently except total extermination and subservient control of their land...just shut up and deal with overcrowding and deal with us bombing and bulldozing your land for new settlements. Guess that's all they can do to make you happy, but I don't think I could handle that if it were my home being bulldozed for a new "settlement"...that would SUCK......

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 7:36 pm Post subject:

The Comrade wrote: Chymical wrote:

how would that possibly apply? :think:

long story short it ended in a huge war.

yah, but wasn't it a HUGE empire with three divisions?

Jerusalem is not really a good analogy for that, being split between two already antagonistic sides, rather than three sides that turn antagonistic in a power vaccumn. if you can be bothered, and ONLY if you are bothered please go a bit deper for me in the parrallels you sketched.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

Chymical wrote:

yah, but wasn't it a HUGE empire with three divisions?

yes, but jerusalem is one of the top three holiest cities(next to mecca, aquaba, and bethlahem). putting three religions in charge of it, especially three religions with a history of fighting, will only lead to trouble. the roman split was just land and greed. the level of religious zealotry fighting over that city would be many times more fierce then that of material fighting.

Chymical wrote: Jerusalem is not really a good analogy for that, being split between two already antagonistic sides, rather than three sides that turn antagonistic in a power vaccumn. if you can be bothered, and ONLY if you are bothered please go a bit deper for me in the parrallels you sketched.

i didn't mean it like a word for word perfect comparison. but the general idea was the same. three people, who were essentially rivals, given control of the most important thing in their minds(this case being jerusalem). what happens is they start fighting over it. i don't mean just muslims fighting over it, but christians, muslims, and jews. you'll see a new rise in irgun-taliban-IRA styles groups in jerusalem, and they'll all be fighting to take jerusalem, all or nothing.

californian conservative · Joined: 08 Jul 2006 Posts: 7239 Location: Michigan

cool_chick wrote: How do the Palestinians do that? I don't know. Nothing seems to work. Even peaceful resistance has become "human shields" to you guys. Nothing will work for those people apparently except total extermination and subservient control of their land...just shut up and deal with overcrowding and deal with us bombing and bulldozing your land for new settlements. Guess that's all they can do to make you happy, but I don't think I could handle that if it were my home being bulldozed for a new "settlement"...that would SUCK......

Are you saying that this isn't an example of human shields? Do you honestly believe that Israel wants the total extermination and subserviation of the Palestinians? Israel has backed off of its settlement of Palestinian lands, and this thread has nothing to do with settlements.

Although I do agree that peaceful resistance is the way that needs to happen, if Palestinians use peaceful resistance and Israel stops killing militants while Palestinians use peaceful resistance then diplomacy could happen and who knows what possibilities that could have.

Chymical · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:10 pm Post subject:

The Comrade wrote: Chymical wrote:

yah, but wasn't it a HUGE empire with three divisions?

yes, but jerusalem is one of the top three holiest cities(next to mecca, aquaba, and bethlahem). putting three religions in charge of it, especially three religions with a history of fighting, will only lead to trouble. the roman split was just land and greed. the level of religious zealotry fighting over that city would be many times more fierce then that of material fighting.

Chymical wrote: Jerusalem is not really a good analogy for that, being split between two already antagonistic sides, rather than three sides that turn antagonistic in a power vaccumn. if you can be bothered, and ONLY if you are bothered please go a bit deper for me in the parrallels you sketched.

i didn't mean it like a word for word perfect comparison. but the general idea was the same. three people, who were essentially rivals, given control of the most important thing in their minds(this case being jerusalem). what happens is they start fighting over it. i don't mean just muslims fighting over it, but christians, muslims, and jews. you'll see a new rise in irgun-taliban-IRA styles groups in jerusalem, and they'll all be fighting to take jerusalem, all or nothing.

Comrade, I don't think anyone suggested putting it in join religious hands, that would obviously be rank stupidity, what was mooted was it being an international city administered by the UN. What do you reckon as to a UN protectorate over Jerusalum? better then what we have or worse, I know the UN is not the most wonderful epitome of eficientcy, but they certainly have legitimacy to do this more then the Brits/yanks or dare I say Jooooos...