Political Crossfire Forums

[Vulcidian]

Here's the link:

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061116/ap_on_go_co/minimum_wage


I've heard arguments that say raising the minimum wage does no good. This is because companies simply accomodate for their loss in revenue due to increasing costs by raising the price of their products. Thus, inflation results until the market returns to equilibrium, and the wage worker makes no more than he or she did before.

Others argue that the minimum wage must be raised, because since inflation happens anyway companies exploit the workers and end up paying them less and less as time goes on in real wages.

So, no one seems to disagree that inflation happens. But the affect that a minimum wage raising has on it is disputed.

I, for one, see no problem in raising the minimum wage to adjust for inflation. Inflation happens naturally, and it is unfair to pay a worker less and less in real wages as the years go on.

However, I believe it has been conclusively shown that you cannot permanently raise the wage of the worker.

People who are against the minimum wage hike tend to think that the market will adjust immediately and that it will accelerate inflation. But the market does not adjust perfectly.

So, my conclusion is that the minimum wage should be hiked in accordance with inflation so that workers are not exploited. But, it should not be used to try and cause the workers to make more in real wages that market equilibrium would allow, as this will lead to accelerated inflation.

The lesson here is moderation. Opponents of the minimum wage must not forget that firms almost never vountarily raise the wages of their lowest level workers. But they do not deserve to be exploited any more than the white collar worker.

This is a perfect example of why the government must provide some regulation in business.

[perdidochas]

Vulcidian wrote: Here's the link:

news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061116/ap_on_go_co/minimum_wage


I've heard arguments that say raising the minimum wage does no good. This is because companies simply accomodate for their loss in revenue due to increasing costs by raising the price of their products. Thus, inflation results until the market returns to equilibrium, and the wage worker makes no more than he or she did before.

Others argue that the minimum wage must be raised, because since inflation happens anyway companies exploit the workers and end up paying them less and less as time goes on in real wages.

So, no one seems to disagree that inflation happens. But the affect that a minimum wage raising has on it is disputed.

I, for one, see no problem in raising the minimum wage to adjust for inflation. Inflation happens naturally, and it is unfair to pay a worker less and less in real wages as the years go on.

However, I believe it has been conclusively shown that you cannot permanently raise the wage of the worker.

People who are against the minimum wage hike tend to think that the market will adjust immediately and that it will accelerate inflation. But the market does not adjust perfectly.

So, my conclusion is that the minimum wage should be hiked in accordance with inflation so that workers are not exploited. But, it should not be used to try and cause the workers to make more in real wages that market equilibrium would allow, as this will lead to accelerated inflation.

The lesson here is moderation. Opponents of the minimum wage must not forget that firms almost never vountarily raise the wages of their lowest level workers. But they do not deserve to be exploited any more than the white collar worker.

This is a perfect example of why the government must provide some regulation in business.

Their shouldn't be a minimum wage. Despite the fact that the minimum wage hasn't increased in years, the median wage has. In fact, according to the BLS, only about 1% of workers make at or below the minimum wage. How can that be if evil businesses are just exploiting the workers for as low wages as they legally can? My point is that the market has raised the defacto minimum wage. There is no good reason to have one.

[Free Thinkr]

perdidochas wrote: My point is that the market has raised the defacto minimum wage. There is no good reason to have one.
I couldn't agree more. Even immigrant workers rarely work at the minimum wage. It's nothing more than a vote-buying ploy.

[TNBiologist]

The minimum wage should be abolished. While most people do not make minimum wage those who do should not have it raised. By raising the minimum wage you are telling people that "Its ok, you don't have to work hard to get a pay raise". I can get a job flipping hamburgers or doing yard work for more than the minimum wage as long as I actually work. The only thing raising the minimum wage does it allow people who feel no need to work hard and push themselves to make more money. It would benifit very few people and hurt most people by increasing prices ever so slightly to make up for the increase in pay for the lazy few.

[pyrophasma]

It's just a way for politicians to buy votes. Many union wage contracts set wages as a multiple of the minimum wage.

Basically, people vote for whoever they think will get them the most money. This has pretty much corrupted politics beyond all belief. The remedy? Get politicians out of business, that way they won't be buying votes.

[IronBrigadeMike (IBM)]

Do NOT raise the minimum wage. Funny, I was in a debate with a kid in my school over this issue today.

[Vulcidian]

TNBiologist wrote: The minimum wage should be abolished. While most people do not make minimum wage those who do should not have it raised. By raising the minimum wage you are telling people that "Its ok, you don't have to work hard to get a pay raise". I can get a job flipping hamburgers or doing yard work for more than the minimum wage as long as I actually work. The only thing raising the minimum wage does it allow people who feel no need to work hard and push themselves to make more money. It would benifit very few people and hurt most people by increasing prices ever so slightly to make up for the increase in pay for the lazy few.


Minimum wage abolished!? I hope you are kidding.

First of all, raising the minimum wage is not a pay raise. The workers make less and less every year because of inflation. Did you even read what I wrote?


Second of all, if we abolished the minimum wage then that means firms could pay as little as they wanted. It would be possible to have wage wars, hiring the people who will work for the least amount of money. In that case, all of our jobs are going over seas. There is no way our companies are going to pay us on the artifical notion that the companies have somehow raised wages. History has proven you wrong. When there was no minimum wage, people suffered and children died at the age of 6 working in sweatshops. Who are you people?

Abolishing the minimum wage is, insane. You wonder why our country hasn't had a marxist revolution? It is because the government makes companies respect their workers. Yes, some companies do care about their workers, but history has proven that the vast majority only care about profit.

If you abolish the minimum wage, you are dooming Capitalism and the Free Market.

[Zoot]

Free Thinkr wrote: perdidochas wrote: My point is that the market has raised the defacto minimum wage. There is no good reason to have one.
I couldn't agree more. Even immigrant workers rarely work at the minimum wage. It's nothing more than a vote-buying ploy.

If almost no one is working at minimum wage, no one should have a problem with raising it, then, hmm? After all, if no one's paying minimum wage now, then raising it's not going to cost businesses anything, and there won't even be resultant inflation.

[artk]

Quote: If almost no one is working at minimum wage, no one should have a problem with raising it, then, hmm? After all, if no one's paying minimum wage now, then raising it's not going to cost businesses anything, and there won't even be resultant inflation.

You must be a mind reader...I was just thinking the same thing

[Falconer]

Does anyone have any links or sources to an expert opinion on this issue?

[Free Thinkr]

Zoot wrote: Free Thinkr wrote: perdidochas wrote: My point is that the market has raised the defacto minimum wage. There is no good reason to have one.
I couldn't agree more. Even immigrant workers rarely work at the minimum wage. It's nothing more than a vote-buying ploy.
If almost no one is working at minimum wage, no one should have a problem with raising it, then, hmm?
What would be the point, hmmm?

Quote: After all, if no one's paying minimum wage now, then raising it's not going to cost businesses anything, and there won't even be resultant inflation.
It's going to cost teens jobs, that's about it. Of course, if you raise it significantly, as you no doubt endorse, a lot of people would be making minimum wage, and it would do great amounts of harm to businesses, small businesses in particular.

I stand by my position: these proposed small increases in minimum wage are nothing more than a vote-buying ploy.

[artk]

Quote: It's going to cost teens jobs, that's about it. Of course, if you raise it significantly, as you no doubt endorse, a lot of people would be making minimum wage, and it would do great amounts of harm to businesses, small businesses in particular.

Hmm...haven't seen that happen here in Oregon where min wage is currently 7.50/hr

[Tono]

Raise minimum wage and ban tip jars.

Seems like a fair trade.

[Free Thinkr]

Vulcidian wrote: TNBiologist wrote: The minimum wage should be abolished. While most people do not make minimum wage those who do should not have it raised. By raising the minimum wage you are telling people that "Its ok, you don't have to work hard to get a pay raise". I can get a job flipping hamburgers or doing yard work for more than the minimum wage as long as I actually work. The only thing raising the minimum wage does it allow people who feel no need to work hard and push themselves to make more money. It would benifit very few people and hurt most people by increasing prices ever so slightly to make up for the increase in pay for the lazy few.
Minimum wage abolished!? I hope you are kidding.
Why? 1% of workers make minimum wage. The market sets higher wages by itself.

Quote: First of all, raising the minimum wage is not a pay raise. The workers make less and less every year because of inflation. Did you even read what I wrote?
So? You're operating under the premise that the minimum wage is necessary, which the fact that median wage increased without increases in minimum wage proves that notion false.

Quote: Second of all, if we abolished the minimum wage then that means firms could pay as little as they wanted.
Not really. Unless you are claiming they'd somehow be able to force people to work.

Quote: It would be possible to have wage wars, hiring the people who will work for the least amount of money. In that case, all of our jobs are going over seas.
Explain further. *grabs popcorn*

Quote: There is no way our companies are going to pay us on the artifical notion that the companies have somehow raised wages. History has proven you wrong. When there was no minimum wage, people suffered and children died at the age of 6 working in sweatshops. Who are you people?
When people used horses and buggies, people suffered and children died at the age of 6 working in sweatshops. How, then, could you monsters not support the criminalization of horses and buggies!

Quote: Abolishing the minimum wage is, insane. You wonder why our country hasn't had a marxist revolution? It is because the government makes companies respect their workers. Yes, some companies do care about their workers, but history has proven that the vast majority only care about profit.

If you abolish the minimum wage, you are dooming Capitalism and the Free Market.
That 1% figure pretty well proves you wrong. Again, even illegal immigrants are normally paid higher wages than minimum wage, even though their employer is paying them illegally and thus is unaffected by the minimum wage.

[Free Thinkr]

artk wrote: Quote: It's going to cost teens jobs, that's about it. Of course, if you raise it significantly, as you no doubt endorse, a lot of people would be making minimum wage, and it would do great amounts of harm to businesses, small businesses in particular.

Hmm...haven't seen that happen here in Oregon where min wage is currently 7.50/hr
Tell me, how would you "see" such a thing?

[LostSoul3412]

What is the purpose of minimum wage?

To ensure that all who are employed can survive off of their income.

Does $5.15 an hour achieve that purpose?

If not, then it needs to be raised.

Fun Facts:

Working standard 40 hour work weeks, 48 weeks out of the year, an employee earning $5.15 an hour earns a yearly income of $9,888!

Working standard 40 hour work weeks, 48 weeks out of the year, and employee earning $6.50 an hour earns a yearly income of $12,480!

The average standard of living within the United States is $40,000!

The purpose is not being met, and the minimum wage deserves to be raised to $6.50 in an effort to establish the survivability of those who are employed.

[bigstick61]

I'm against it period. Abolishment is the way to go, IMHO.

It's generally harmful to small business owners, as it limits the number of employees they can afford to hire. Higher wages, through such regulations, and also through Unions, is the driving force behind the hiring of illegals and the sending of jobs overseas. It is also harmful to the poor, as it reduces their opportunties for employment. It also is a violation of the right to property of the business owner, as you're sometimes forcing him to spend more of his money than he'd like to; being a supporter of freedom, justice, and the free market, people should be free to work for whatever wages they want, and employers should be free to pay what they want so long as the employee agrees to it. The free market should dictate wages, not Unions or the government.

[Free Thinkr]

LostSoul3412 wrote: What is the purpose of minimum wage?

To ensure that all who are employed can survive off of their income.
Really? Does a teen working his first job in a part-time capacity need to "survive" off his income?

Quote: Does $5.15 an hour achieve that purpose?

If not, then it needs to be raised.

<snip>

The purpose is not being met, and the minimum wage deserves to be raised to $6.50 in an effort to establish the survivability of those who are employed.
Yeah, that extra 1.35 will make all the difference! :lol:

You achieve your stated purpose, it'd have to be at least $10. Few advocate this, however, because they know full well it will wreak havoc on our economy, the small business sector in particular.

[artk]

Free Thinkr wrote: artk wrote: Quote: It's going to cost teens jobs, that's about it. Of course, if you raise it significantly, as you no doubt endorse, a lot of people would be making minimum wage, and it would do great amounts of harm to businesses, small businesses in particular.

Hmm...haven't seen that happen here in Oregon where min wage is currently 7.50/hr
Tell me, how would you "see" such a thing?

I see all of my kids working. I see the town I live in grow from a population of 3000 to over 6000 in the last several years. I see many new business's moving into my area.. So all in all, I don't see where the 7.50/hr minimum wage has hurt anything here.

[LostSoul3412]

Free Thinkr wrote: Really? Does a teen working his first job in a part-time capacity need to "survive" off his income?

Is a teen going to be working 40 a week, 48 weeks out of the year?

Free Thinkr wrote: Yeah, that extra 1.35 will make all the difference! :lol:

You achieve your stated purpose, it'd have to be at least $10. Few advocate this, however, because they know full well it will wreak havoc on our economy, the small business sector in particular.

Minimum wage does not need to be $10 to achieve basic survival. $10 would certainly provide comfortable living, but that it's the purpose of minimum wage.