Political Crossfire Forums

[wyldejackyl]

No. It wouldn't be murder if the victims of police brutality stood up during a confrontation in which cops were abusing their authority, and instead showed them that their abuse of power will no longer be tolerated.

You're right though, when I think about it, that's not such a good idea. More cops will just show up, and start mowing down everyone in sight, then somehow justify it..just like the people that think the kid deserved to be zapped. If you want to comply with the police when they repeatedly violate the 4th amendment..you go right ahead. I will NOT forsake MY RIGHTS!

[perdidochas]

wyldejackyl wrote: No. It wouldn't be murder if the victims of police brutality stood up during a confrontation in which cops were abusing their authority, and instead showed them that their abuse of power will no longer be tolerated.

You're right though, when I think about it, that's not such a good idea. More cops will just show up, and start mowing down everyone in sight, then somehow justify it..just like the people that think the kid deserved to be zapped. If you want to comply with the police when they repeatedly violate the 4th amendment..you go right ahead. I will NOT forsake MY RIGHTS!

The more common sense solution is to hope that this guy's lawsuit works. If it does, trust me the tazer will soon be gone from policemen's belts. They will have to go back to night sticks and broken bones.

First, this guy was not a kid. He was 23 yrs old. he had a chip on his shoulder yelling that Patriot act crap. He wanted a confrontation. I wouldnt' be surprised to hear that he planned it out. After all there were several video cameras around. Anyway, the cops had legitimate reason to ask him for ID. From what I've read, they do that every night at 11. All non-students (i.e. people who dont' have an ID)are asked to leave. Then they start asking to see Student ID's. This guy should have either shown his ID, or politely said "I don't have mine" and then left, instead of instigating a bunch of crap.

[The Newb]

you know what i find funny.......

that no matter how a person is arressted, someone can find a way to claim it was "too much" or "over the top" whatever phrase you wish to use

by rights handcuffas are potentially lethal, yeah i said it, with ones hands secured behind ones back, and being unruly, you can fall, not be able to brace yourself, hit your head, and "possibly" die

another aspect how would the police subdue this suspect "peacibly" with all the people around?

1. a gun? nope cant take the risk of hurting someone
2. a knight stick? nope could swing miss and hit someone causing harm
3. politely asking him to leave? that failed so its out
4. i know telling him to put his hands on the wall and frisking him? nope he was disobediant would not have worked why waste the time?

many options are not the one that was used as you can see there are arguements against them as well as the taser, funny its the one th cops used, its the one that all the bleeding heart hippies wanted for "non-lethal" arrests, they pushed it instead of violence, and now they are pushing against that as well

the way i see it, the liberal far left hippies, will never be truely satisfied, they live to protest anything. i am truely convinced if the entire world become liberal far left they would still find something to protest, this is a prime example. the far left protested that cops were too violent in the use of billy clubs, and weapons, they needed another alternative, then came the taser ( accepted as a rule by the far left ) and now is unacceptable in use?

back to the OP the cops were well with in thier rights on the first use of the taser that is not being debated what is being debated is the repeated use. if you watched the video closely the kid was on the floor refuseing to leave after the first shot, he brought it on himself. if he could not stand on his own for some unknown reason he could have told the policemen that and not spouted off at the mouth with matters not pertaining to his leaving. furthermore the whole incident would have been avoided if he had just left when first asked, and / or showed id / identified himself when asked other than being a little b**** about things, causing the escalation of events. yet he chose the hard way and was promptly schooled by the police what the hard way entails, he could have been roughly escorted out of the building with multiple bruises, yet that would have been rough as well ( come on guys admit it if the cops layed a hand on him you would have been just as angry its ok we know :wink: ).

and what is this on the patriot act that was being spouted off by numerous students in the video? cops have been asserting authority long before the patriot act come on people this is nothing new, its only a way for the "far left" ( yes many students have far left views ) to have one more thing to complain about

[thundertaker]

wyldejackyl wrote: No. It wouldn't be murder if the victims of police brutality stood up during a confrontation in which cops were abusing their authority, and instead showed them that their abuse of power will no longer be tolerated.

You're right though, when I think about it, that's not such a good idea. More cops will just show up, and start mowing down everyone in sight, then somehow justify it..just like the people that think the kid deserved to be zapped. If you want to comply with the police when they repeatedly violate the 4th amendment..you go right ahead. I will NOT forsake MY RIGHTS!

I happen to be friends with several coppers, and they are all reasonable guys. Why would you want people like them to be murdered because some of their colleugues happen to be asshats?
This is what the courts and the legal system is for.........

[The Newb]

wyldejackyl wrote: No. It wouldn't be murder if the victims of police brutality stood up during a confrontation in which cops were abusing their authority, and instead showed them that their abuse of power will no longer be tolerated.

You're right though, when I think about it, that's not such a good idea. More cops will just show up, and start mowing down everyone in sight, then somehow justify it..just like the people that think the kid deserved to be zapped. If you want to comply with the police when they repeatedly violate the 4th amendment..you go right ahead. I will NOT forsake MY RIGHTS!

by politely working with policemen and not being a jerk is not forsaking rights, its common sence

[wyldejackyl]

Night sticks and broken bones? They needed neither in this case, IMHO.

I would have been yelling that same stuff about the Patriot Act, because it's abominations like that that got us where we are today with the unbridled use of intimidation tactics by the police. Ever hear of the Gestapo, or the NKVD? He didn't want a confrontation, he said he would leave..you can hear it in the video. Like drones, the pigs just keep asking for his ID. Comrade keeps saying the library was closed..when in fact, it wasn't. Look at all the people there. He was just asked to show ID because it's one of the library's policies. Maybe he was against it? Good for him. He should refuse, and then leave. It's his right. The problem is, he said he'd leave, and apparently he didn't do it fast enough for the intrepid law enforcement. Then they kept zapping him over and over, and telling him to stand, when tazed victims can't stand anyway. He kept saying he couldn't stand, they zapped him anyway. Did you watch the video either? At least one student asked for the cops' badges. There were easily 50 students there. They could have easily overpowered those cops. Plenty of video as evidence. why not? They were abusing their power!
You're insinuating that because he wasn't polite to them, that they hurt him? It's the cop's duty to respect rights..I don't care if the guy said he f****d the cop's mother at a whorehouse gangbang..it doesn't matter. The point is, the cops should have just told him to gather his belongings, and escorted him out. The first thing you can hear the dude saying is, "DON'T TOUCH ME!" Why did they feel the need to grab him? Other than saying "I'm leaving" he was posing no threat..none that any of us can see anyway. Certainly not enough to merit not one..but REPEATED use of the tazer. I'm surprised he didn't pull the wires out then come after them. Those things only have one shot.

At my university, they gave the cops radios and flashlights. Guess what? Nothing ever got out of hand, because there were no tools for the cops to abuse. The true University police were never called in unless something was really the matter, and even so, they are trained and would merely ask the person to leave, walk behind them too the door. No need for physical contact or unreasonable requests. What did they want him to do, whip out his ID or have to leave the library in 10 seconds? The entire video is only a few minutes long..in the span of that time the cops successfully escalated the confrontation well beyond what was necessary.

I hope the guy's lawsuit does work. And I wouldn't sue for money either. I'd sue to make sure those imbeciles could never work in law enforcement again, and that they'd serve time for it.

[wyldejackyl]

thundertaker wrote:

I happen to be friends with several coppers, and they are all reasonable guys. Why would you want people like them to be murdered because some of their colleugues happen to be asshats?
This is what the courts and the legal system is for.........

You've never met the LAPD, the NYPD or the Chicago PD. Here's hoping you never have to..most of them are born asshats! Just because your friends are cool doesn't mean cops are cool here. Plus they aren't armed in the UK. People do weird things when they feel they have the power to.

Our legal system is corrupt to the point of ridiculousness. Unless you are wealthy or a politician (or a wealthy politician- even better).

[wyldejackyl]

The Newb wrote:

by politely working with policemen and not being a jerk is not forsaking rights, its common sence

Working with?

So if you get pulled over for a broken taillight, the cop asks you to search your car or your person..should you consent? Asking for ID is the same thing. He has no right to ask who you are..except he's doing so because that's university policy of anyone that's in the library after 11. He says right in the video he'd leave (see your point #3 above), but they keep asking for ID. Maybe he didn't have it? We'll never know. How long did it take before he said he'd leave, they kept asking him for ID, and then they tazed him. A minute? Hell, I can't get my crap together to go home from work in a minute..I'd need at least 2-5. Guess he wasn't fast enough.

[The Comrade]

wyldejackyl wrote: Did you watch the video, Comrade?

"Stand up or you'll get tazed again."
They should know from training that victims of the tazer cannot control their muscles for at LEAST a minute after being used on them.

Did you seriously watch that video? Just listening to it, if I was a bystander, I would have taken the cops on myself and beat the life out of them myself. The student said he would leave, they didnt' even give him a chance..just keep zapping him, and telling him to stand up. That's like cracking you in the knees and telling you to do a tapdance.

If this s**t keeps happening, mark my words, there will be a backlash against law authority..and it won't be pretty. For the sake of the innocent, I hope one day an incident like this leads to a police massacre. How else will they listen?

WATCH THE VIDEO, Comrade, and tell me how much of a threat this guy is. It's 3 against 1. They keep telling him to "stand up" and he keeps saying he can't.

You know who I blame? the students that stood their watching. They should have beaten the hell out of those cops.


so the cops then had a justifiable reason to start shooting them?

and don't you already have an extreme bias against cops?

[The Comrade]

yanniv wrote:

History and reading the report lead me to my conclusion. I may be wrong, but I'm willing to bet on it. All I'm going to really say is I wouldn't be surprised if some of those cops were racist.

i wouldn't be surprised if some british people have bad teeth or that some southerners are rec necks.

should i now claim that that they all have bad teeth and that they all are rednecks, especially without evidence to support it?

yanniv wrote: You can scream all you want at a cop. Show me the law where you cannot scream at a cop. You are doing no harm to anyone. Remember, cops work for the people, not the other way around.
We all know kids who speak up against authority are all threatening. :roll:

you're taking it out of context. he didn't just scream at them, he resisted arrest, and wouldn't cooperate. you seem to be leaving those out.


yanniv wrote: Heh, we all know kids that are handcuffed can reach and grab a gun. :lol:

that's funny, because a gun can also be drawn and fired before someone can reach you.


yanniv wrote: I'd say if a situation like that comes up and the kid doesn't comply just simply temporary arrest him and move him. Tell him why he was moved and move on with what you were doing. It's that simple.

you know what else is simple?

flashing your ID for ten seconds and walking away.

yanniv wrote: Stop acting like this kid was a threat who refused to comply with officers. You trying to justify the use of brute force is just sickening.

you're using hindsight boyo.

[wyldejackyl]

It's easier to let the cops have their way with you, even against your rights, then resist. You're proclaiming this as the right thing to do, given your statement of "flashing your ID for ten seconds and walking away." That's fine for you, but people have rights for a reason. They aren't supposed to be taken away.


Yes I have a bias against cops. Seeing videos like this doesn't help things. Seeing coward cops shock a 23 year old student who's outnumbered and unarmed (whether it was known if he was armed or not..there are 3 cops, all supposedly trained) makes me hate them even more.

The cops couldn't have a justifiable reason of shooting anyone, since they were acting in the wrong, and by the students resisting them as a whole..the cops could do little. Tazers can only be shot once. 2 tazers unused, 2 cops left. 50 students. Something tells me that's not good odds if you're an **** cop in front of people that actually have any capability of thought and action. Did you hear the kid ask for the cop's badge number? did you hear him give it out? Of course not! When cops are allowed to get away with this, it only incites more to do the same. Hold them accountable in a court of law, they'll get a slap on the wrist like cops always do. Beat them senseless because of what they did..well..it'll be hard to be a cop then, won't it? Maybe when they get out of rehab. :lol:

[The Comrade]

for someone who was tazered and can't stand up, he seems to be able to put his hands behind his back, resist being dragged out, yell, throw his arms around, and roll about.

funny though that he can't get up or say "i can't move, please drag me out"

[The Comrade]

wyldejackyl wrote: It's easier to let the cops have their way with you, even against your rights, then resist. You're proclaiming this as the right thing to do, given your statement of "flashing your ID for ten seconds and walking away." That's fine for you, but people have rights for a reason. They aren't supposed to be taken away.

if it's a violation then do something after the fact. don't start screaming in the cops face and make a scene.


wyldejackyl wrote: Yes I have a bias against cops.


bingo.



wyldejackyl wrote: The cops couldn't have a justifiable reason of shooting anyone, since they were acting in the wrong, and by the students resisting them as a whole..the cops could do little. Tazers can only be shot once.

it wasn't one of the tazers that shoots. you can clearly see in the video that it isn't.

wyldejackyl wrote: 2 tazers unused, 2 cops left. 50 students. Something tells me that's not good odds if you're an ***hole cop in front of people that actually have any capability of thought and action. Did you hear the kid ask for the cop's badge number? did you hear him give it out? Of course not! When cops are allowed to get away with this, it only incites more to do the same. Hold them accountable in a court of law, they'll get a slap on the wrist like cops always do. Beat them senseless because of what they did..well..it'll be hard to be a cop then, won't it? Maybe when they get out of rehab. :lol:

he could have just left and not argued with them.

[wyldejackyl]

Yes sir, you just tazered me for what amounts to no resistance, please drag me on my face out of here because I can't stand.

WHAT?!

I don't think at that point I'd have anything but anger in me either. He says he can't stand. He shouldn't have to ask them to drag him out. All they keep saying is stand or you'll get tazed again. Did you watch the video yet?

He's rolling about and flailing because he has no muscle coordination. 50,000 volts will do that to your central nervous system..scramble it up for a while. Stand in some salt water and put both hands on a car battery and tell me how good you can thread a needle.

[perdidochas]

wyldejackyl wrote: Night sticks and broken bones? They needed neither in this case, IMHO.

I would have been yelling that same stuff about the Patriot Act, because it's abominations like that that got us where we are today with the unbridled use of intimidation tactics by the police. Ever hear of the Gestapo, or the NKVD? He didn't want a confrontation, he said he would leave..you can hear it in the video. Like drones, the pigs just keep asking for his ID. Comrade keeps saying the library was closed..when in fact, it wasn't. Look at all the people there. He was just asked to show ID because it's one of the library's policies. Maybe he was against it? Good for him. He should refuse, and then leave. It's his right. The problem is, he said he'd leave, and apparently he didn't do it fast enough for the intrepid law enforcement. Then they kept zapping him over and over, and telling him to stand, when tazed victims can't stand anyway. He kept saying he couldn't stand, they zapped him anyway. Did you watch the video either? At least one student asked for the cops' badges. There were easily 50 students there. They could have easily overpowered those cops. Plenty of video as evidence. why not? They were abusing their power!
You're insinuating that because he wasn't polite to them, that they hurt him? It's the cop's duty to respect rights..I don't care if the guy said he f****d the cop's mother at a whorehouse gangbang..it doesn't matter. The point is, the cops should have just told him to gather his belongings, and escorted him out. The first thing you can hear the dude saying is, "DON'T TOUCH ME!" Why did they feel the need to grab him? Other than saying "I'm leaving" he was posing no threat..none that any of us can see anyway. Certainly not enough to merit not one..but REPEATED use of the tazer. I'm surprised he didn't pull the wires out then come after them. Those things only have one shot.

At my university, they gave the cops radios and flashlights. Guess what? Nothing ever got out of hand, because there were no tools for the cops to abuse. The true University police were never called in unless something was really the matter, and even so, they are trained and would merely ask the person to leave, walk behind them too the door. No need for physical contact or unreasonable requests. What did they want him to do, whip out his ID or have to leave the library in 10 seconds? The entire video is only a few minutes long..in the span of that time the cops successfully escalated the confrontation well beyond what was necessary.

I hope the guy's lawsuit does work. And I wouldn't sue for money either. I'd sue to make sure those imbeciles could never work in law enforcement again, and that they'd serve time for it.

1) Was your college in a major metropolitan area? If not, then they had less need for anything but flashlights. UCLA is in a major metro area.

2) Everybody messed up. The guy was a jerk, and was trying to cause a confrontation. From what I've read the particular library he was in was for UCLA students only, and required a UCLA ID to be in:

UCLA WEBSITE REFERENCED BELOW wrote: The Extended Hours Reading Room
in Powell Library Building
Night Powell is open only to UCLA students, staff and faculty with a valid UCLA BruinCard ID. No food or drink is allowed in the building with the exception of the UCLA Library spill-proof mug. Library materials are not accessible and there are no Circulation Services. Night Powell is located on the first floor of the Powell Library building.

www.library.ucla.edu/college/powell/nightpowell.htm

Why the confrontation? I don't know. The video I saw didn't show the start of the confrontation. It didnt' show it until it had already gotten physical. The thing is that moron didn't do what simple things he should have done. Instead he cursed and started ranting about the Patriot Act. THe policemen probably did overreact, I don't doubt that, but the guy wanted that. he wanted confrontation, otherwise he would have simply been polite and said he didn't have ID, and we wouldn't be arguing about it online.

If this had all occurred out in the street, I would agree with you. but it didnt'. It was in a restricted area, that had legitimate reason to be restricted to students only (see my website). This wasn't some fascist "I vant to see your papers" thing going on. Honestly, the more I read, I think this guy forgot his ID, and hoped that by making a confrontation and claiming it was political/racial, he could stay in the building.

[wyldejackyl]

It matters not if I have a bias against cops or not. The arguments I presented aren't simply: all cops are wrong all of the time, we should kill them all, kill their families and bomb the white house because they are the hub of authoritarian rule or some other such nonsense. Sure, I don't like cops, but you saying my bias has anything to do with the argument is baseless.

You say he could have just left? He said to them, "I'm leaving" what did you expect him to do, teleport out of there without taking time to physically leave the building? All the drones kept asking was, "I need to see some ID".

He has every right to scream in the cop's face. In fact, he didn't get really loud or unruly til after the first time they zapped him.

Of course the tazer didnt' shoot itself. The cop shot it. I'm not blaming the tazer for the incident, I'm blaming the lack of training and stupidity of the cops who will probably get off scot free!

[perdidochas]

wyldejackyl wrote: The Newb wrote:

by politely working with policemen and not being a jerk is not forsaking rights, its common sence

Working with?

So if you get pulled over for a broken taillight, the cop asks you to search your car or your person..should you consent? Asking for ID is the same thing. He has no right to ask who you are..except he's doing so because that's university policy of anyone that's in the library after 11. He says right in the video he'd leave (see your point #3 above), but they keep asking for ID. Maybe he didn't have it? We'll never know. How long did it take before he said he'd leave, they kept asking him for ID, and then they tazed him. A minute? Hell, I can't get my crap together to go home from work in a minute..I'd need at least 2-5. Guess he wasn't fast enough.

From the Library website:
The Extended Hours Reading Room
in Powell Library Building
Night Powell is open only to UCLA students, staff and faculty with a valid UCLA BruinCard ID. No food or drink is allowed in the building with the exception of the UCLA Library spill-proof mug. Library materials are not accessible and there are no Circulation Services. Night Powell is located on the first floor of the Powell Library building.



He should have simply said "I don't have an ID, I'll get ready to go." Instead he mouthed off about the Patriot act, etc.

From www.presstelegram.com/news/ci_4668293

"The incident occurred about 11 p.m. Tuesday after police did a routine check of student identifications at the university's Powell Library computer lab.

"This is a long-standing library policy to ensure the safety of students during the late-night hours," said UCLA Police Department spokeswoman Nancy Greenstein.

She said police tried to escort Mostafa Tabatabainejad, 23, out of the library after he refused to provide ID and would not leave.

Tabatabainejad, arrested for resisting and obstructing a police officer, was later released on his own recognizance.

"As the officers attempted to escort him out, he went limp and continued to refuse to cooperate with officers or leave the building," Greenstein said.

Instead, Greenstein said, Tabatabainejad encouraged others at the library to join his resistance. When a crowd began to gather they used the stun gun on him. "


This guy was pissed off because they were about to kick him out of the library, and instead of being an adult decent human being, he raised a ruckus. Man, I'm getting to the point,that I wish that I had been at the trigger of the tazer.

[wyldejackyl]

perdidochas wrote:
Why the confrontation? I don't know. The video I saw didn't show the start of the confrontation. It didnt' show it until it had already gotten physical. The thing is that moron didn't do what simple things he should have done. Instead he cursed and started ranting about the Patriot Act. THe policemen probably did overreact, I don't doubt that, but the guy wanted that. he wanted confrontation, otherwise he would have simply been polite and said he didn't have ID, and we wouldn't be arguing about it online.

If this had all occurred out in the street, I would agree with you. but it didnt'. It was in a restricted area, that had legitimate reason to be restricted to students only (see my website). This wasn't some fascist "I vant to see your papers" thing going on. Honestly, the more I read, I think this guy forgot his ID, and hoped that by making a confrontation and claiming it was political/racial, he could stay in the building.

I went to UIC, in the heart of Chicago. At the time it was also surrounded on two sides by crackhouses and slums. Walking down Halsted 5 years ago south of Polk was a no-no. Now you can't buy one of those places for less than $400,000.

By the time he was ranting about the Patriot Act, he was already zapped for not showing ID. I feel that's absurd as well, and by that point, they would have HAD to restrain me to prevent me from injuring them in what i'd later claim as self defense. You can't just taze people for not showing ID. Well, unless you are a cop on a power trip that can't use his own discretion and logic and simply escort him out within a reasonable amount of time.

I think we need more information. I think the details matter. I will concede that if he did in fact attempt to strike an officer after they made a reasonable request that he leave..sure..taze away. But the video gave no evidence of that. Most of what is visible is after the initial shock, and that is entirely in the wrong. Zap him again? They keep telling him to get up. Victims physically cannot after being shocked. They should have just rolled him over (he was already on the ground), cuffed him, and carried him out. Would that have been better than tazing him over and over and over as he tells them to stop, that he can't stand, etc? How can you justify that?

Being political/racial over forgetting one's ID is asinine. If nothing else, I'd tell the cops I forgot it and ask if there was anything else I could do to prevent having to go home and get it. We'll never know that part, and I think that's important. For all we know, they asked him, he said that he didn't have it, they grabbed him and tried to throw him out physically without any request to leave the premises. From what you CAN see in the video though, I'd say the confrontation was totally wrong from the officer's standpoint.

[JohnnyQ]

Quote: i wouldn't be surprised if some british people have bad teeth or that some southerners are rec necks.

should i now claim that that they all have bad teeth and that they all are rednecks, especially without evidence to support it?

Did I say all... nope.

Quote: you're taking it out of context. he didn't just scream at them, he resisted arrest, and wouldn't cooperate. you seem to be leaving those out.

I guess everyone resists arrest when they can't even move after being tasered multiple times. The guy can't even get up.

He said he was leaving and the cops felt they were above the law and could abuse this man for no reason at all. It's clear in the video.

Quote: that's funny, because a gun can also be drawn and fired before someone can reach you.

Whats also funny is that cops are trained to look for signs if he has a gun or willing to pull for one. Apparently, nothing was fishy enough to them to draw their guns.


Quote: you know what else is simple?

flashing your ID for ten seconds and walking away.

Know what else is simple? Him even stating he was about to leave. Cops didn't even give him the chance to, instead they tasered him.

Quote: you're using hindsight boyo.

Quit using hindsight as an argument point.

My point still stands clear, you trying to justify the use of brute force is sickening.

[wyldejackyl]

perdidochas wrote: Man, I'm getting to the point,that I wish that I had been at the trigger of the tazer.

Why, are you just as angry as those cops were? Remember though, that's dangerous. As a cop, you have to control your anger and not take it out on people, even if you'd like to shoot them at that very moment. Other than being physically present in the building, he had done nothing wrong. It's not like he had a bottle of gasoline and a lighter or something in one hand.

Anger towards a suspect is no justification for violence. Doesn't matter if he's a douche, he still has rights, just like we all have.