Political Crossfire Forums

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

I'm sorry, but why is being tasered so horrible?

People are comparing it to being shot, or the like. As has been said, police have been using momentary pain techniques--with suspects in and out of handcuffs--for a long time now. From what has been explained to me by people who have actually been tasered, it's no different. A moment of blinding pain that goes away almost instantly after the fact and has a good chance of garnishing compliance.

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

wyldejackyl wrote: I'm with you Grandmaster, I almost couldn't watch that video myself it made me so mad. I'm surprised none of the other pu**y students stepped in and stopped the cops.

If the cops were worth their mettle, the students wouldn't have been able to stop them, and it would have done nothing but completely justified the police's actions, not to mention a reason to employ their batons.

wyldejackyl · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 7172 Location: Chicago, IL

The act of being tazered isn't so horrible as when the police mis-use them at times when they are not needed. Less-lethal weapon means they are only potentially lethal, but can kill anyway. Is the suspect's life worth risking in order to escort him out of a library? He's outnumbered and unarmed..what threat is he to the officers? If they are trained, he's no threat. If they are amateurs who are about to abuse their power, he is, apparently. I've never seen a reason that can be presented where a subject is handcuffed, that he needs to be shocked to be made to comply. Simply lift him to his feet. If he resists, one guy grabs his feet, the other grabs him under the arms, and they carry him out. Simply shocking him because they dont' want to help him up? That's torture.

Reason #1 why gun control is happening. So we can't fight back as this BS becomes more widespread. I will remember to teach my kids to never trust police officers.

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

The thing is, if they hadn't of taser'd him, they would have simply used pressure points, or joint manipulations to achieve their goal, both of which i'd consider more dangerous than the actual course of action they took.

Also, never say a suspect isn't a threat. Suspects aren't a threat until they're safely behind bars. There's hundreds of dead police officers that can attest to that.

thundertaker · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:43 pm Post subject:

airo wrote: The thing is, if they hadn't of taser'd him, they would have simply used pressure points, or joint manipulations to achieve their goal, both of which i'd consider more dangerous than the actual course of action they took.

That's bulls**t, I have my joints and pressure points manipulated every other day. I wouldn't like to be tasered with the same frequency though. God only knows what would do to my cardiovascular system over time.......

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

thundertaker wrote: airo wrote: The thing is, if they hadn't of taser'd him, they would have simply used pressure points, or joint manipulations to achieve their goal, both of which i'd consider more dangerous than the actual course of action they took.

That's bulls**t, I have my joints and pressure points manipulated every other day. I wouldn't like to be tasered with the same frequency though. God only knows what would do to my cardiovascular system over time.......

It's a lot harder to break someone's wrist or arm with a taser than it is with a untrained or improper joint manipulation.

That was what i was getting at.

thundertaker · Posted: Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:20 pm Post subject:

airo wrote: thundertaker wrote: airo wrote: The thing is, if they hadn't of taser'd him, they would have simply used pressure points, or joint manipulations to achieve their goal, both of which i'd consider more dangerous than the actual course of action they took.

That's bulls**t, I have my joints and pressure points manipulated every other day. I wouldn't like to be tasered with the same frequency though. God only knows what would do to my cardiovascular system over time.......

It's a lot harder to break someone's wrist or arm with a taser than it is with a untrained or improper joint manipulation.

That was what i was getting at.

Well, a cop should know how to do it without snapping someone's arm. It is their f***ing job after all.........

wyldejackyl · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 7172 Location: Chicago, IL

thundertaker wrote:

Well, a cop should know how to do it without snapping someone's arm. It is their f***ing job after all.........

No kidding. These pigs obviously aren't trained, and that's part of the problem. A trained cop wouldn't use the tazer in this situation, a trained cop wouldn't keep using it, and a trained cop would know how to use his training to help him gain the advantage while keeping in mind the health (and rights) of the "criminal." Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty? He's being punished outright on the cops' behalf because of their ignorance. Did you listen to them talk on the video. I need to see some ID, I need to see some ID..like belligerent robots. Are they born with brains in their heads or what? The kid doesn't want to show ID, fine. Tell him he has to pack up his stuff and leave. You never hear them saying anything to him, until they start shocking him.

And Airo, you're saying 3 cops could stave off 50+ students? Hah! They could have overwhelmed them at any time. In fact, they should have. How can you sit there and watch brutality and not act?

ubikk · Joined: 27 Jul 2006 Posts: 2091

Kilo Tango wrote: People are idiots. If you don't cooperate with cops and you antgonize them, you get jacked up.

I think the right to privacy means that I should not have to identify myself unless the authorities have suffficient probable cause to actually arrest me.

wyldejackyl · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 7172 Location: Chicago, IL

ubikk wrote: Kilo Tango wrote: People are idiots. If you don't cooperate with cops and you antgonize them, you get jacked up.

I think the right to privacy means that I should not have to identify myself unless the authorities have suffficient probable cause to actually arrest me.

Precisely. Is this a police state, or a free state? Sure, you can comply with them..but why? They have no right to ask for your ID unless you are committing a crime, or driving (passengers need not present ID). I believe also they don't have the authority to ask you what you are doing or where you are going. In this kid's case though, it was University policy that you needed to show ID to stay in the library. No ID means you can't stay there. In the pea-sized cop mind, it means, "NON COMPLIANCE MEANS USE THE TAZER TO SHOW WHO'S BOSS". Instead of simply waiting for him to leave, or physically escorting him out.

I can't see how being shot with two electrodes and zapped with a few thousand volts of electricity is better than being led out by a cop on each arm..whether or not you're handcuffed. Especially when you are already on the ground, handcuffed, and not a threat..why being zapped over and over again, is somehow going to do anything but aggravate your arrestee. It would piss me off something awful. After that point I'd debate whether I wanted to defend myself against unlawful police action or not. They'd be sorry.

Ek0nomik · Joined: 17 Jul 2005 Posts: 2065 Location: La Fleur

Physical violence wasn't necessary in this situation. The student was leaving the library.

usa-1 · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 80

airo wrote: I'm sorry, but why is being tasered so horrible?

People are comparing it to being shot, or the like. As has been said, police have been using momentary pain techniques--with suspects in and out of handcuffs--for a long time now. From what has been explained to me by people who have actually been tasered, it's no different. A moment of blinding pain that goes away almost instantly after the fact and has a good chance of garnishing compliance.

The problem with electric shock is it ruptures cell membranes and is linked to a host of other problems depending on where the taser goes off on the persons body during a struggle. If shocked in the heart area it can damage heart muscle cells (blows holes in the cells) and can cause permanent damage of the nervous system feeding the rhythm of the heart. Here is more information on this (my opinion) inhumane treatment of electrical control they have been using for a long time.

Electric Damge to body

I would say a good rap with a baton to the legs would take a person down.

usa-1 · Joined: 09 Apr 2006 Posts: 80

I watched a documentary about a month ago on arrests in London and I was really surprised at how those arrests went down. They were quite humane and calmly-conversational as if two old friends had met. At one point one of the officers sang a few bars of a Elvis song to the perpetrator, and the bad guy commented going to jail would be alright if it gets him away from that singing. They all had a good laugh, and led the suspect away. Case after case seemed to go this way, regardless of the situation.

So why are arrests and the relationship between Bobbies and suspects so different there, from the violent encounters we have here on a national level? :roll:

agentkgb · Joined: 23 Aug 2006 Posts: 2241 Location: US

ubikk wrote: Kilo Tango wrote: People are idiots. If you don't cooperate with cops and you antgonize them, you get jacked up.

I think the right to privacy means that I should not have to identify myself unless the authorities have suffficient probable cause to actually arrest me.
I think in most states you have to identify yourself but I'm not sure. I agree that you shouldn't have to though.

airo · Joined: 31 Jul 2004 Posts: 2583 Location: Tampa, Florida

usa-1 wrote: airo wrote: I'm sorry, but why is being tasered so horrible?

People are comparing it to being shot, or the like. As has been said, police have been using momentary pain techniques--with suspects in and out of handcuffs--for a long time now. From what has been explained to me by people who have actually been tasered, it's no different. A moment of blinding pain that goes away almost instantly after the fact and has a good chance of garnishing compliance.

The problem with electric shock is it ruptures cell membranes and is linked to a host of other problems depending on where the taser goes off on the persons body during a struggle. If shocked in the heart area it can damage heart muscle cells (blows holes in the cells) and can cause permanent damage of the nervous system feeding the rhythm of the heart. Here is more information on this (my opinion) inhumane treatment of electrical control they have been using for a long time.

Electric Damge to body

I would say a good rap with a baton to the legs would take a person down.

Well then, we have a serious problem, because every cop who carries a taser has serious, irreparable damage done to them!

von libertinism · Joined: 10 Nov 2006 Posts: 133

wyldejackyl wrote: No kidding. These pigs obviously aren't trained, and that's part of the problem. A trained cop wouldn't use the tazer in this situation, a trained cop wouldn't keep using it, and a trained cop would know how to use his training to help him gain the advantage while keeping in mind the health (and rights) of the "criminal."
One of the officer apparently "has been the subject of two other use-of-force complaints." citation

He's been on the force for 18 years.

Quote: Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty?
Profiling and Probable Cause has eliminated innocent until proven guilty, in my opinion.

Quote: He's being punished outright on the cops' behalf because of their ignorance. Did you listen to them talk on the video. I need to see some ID, I need to see some ID..like belligerent robots. Are they born with brains in their heads or what? The kid doesn't want to show ID, fine. Tell him he has to pack up his stuff and leave. You never hear them saying anything to him, until they start shocking him.
Under the stress the kid must have been under, I think he remained entire rational. His speech @ 00:45 was captivating:

"Here's your Patriot Act. Here's your f***ing abuse of power... I'm not fighting!!!""

Quote: And Airo, you're saying 3 cops could stave off 50+ students? Hah! They could have overwhelmed them at any time. In fact, they should have. How can you sit there and watch brutality and not act?
I personally think the students would have been justified in fighting the cops. I don't think it's much different than gang members beating up a pedestrian and other civilians kicking the s**t of the gang members and restraining them until proper authority arrives, if that even exists.

wyldejackyl · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 7172 Location: Chicago, IL

Well, I stand corrected, von. I wouldn't expect those actions from a trained police officer - your citation and information makes this act EVEN WORSE because they knew what they were doing AND had two prior use-of-force complaints on one of the officers. Why's he still working there? probably because cops are above the law while the government insists they aren't.

Profiling and probable cause are both legal words for allowing police the authority to abuse their power when they feel like it.

The kid was indeed pretty coherent. I was amazed at how the cops' rhetoric didn't change or show any emotion. Like zombies.

Proper authority would come with riot sticks, tear gas, and beanbag rounds, I fear. This is the "freedom" we live with. Listen to the cops, or get seriously f****d.

Di · Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 929 Location: Northern Calif

A lot of self-absorbed squeaking about RIGHTS in this thread. Nobody has yet mentioned the word Responsibility. With rights come responsibility. This young man deliberately refused to adhere to the rules of the university... he has a responsibility to adhere to those rules, and if he doesn't the university (or its designated agent, in this case the campus security police) has the right to enforce those rules in accordance with university policy. It should be noted that UCLA campus police are not governmentally-trained sworn police officers (or so I've been told); they are in fact a private security force hired by the university. It should also be noted that LAPD, and most official police departments, have much stricter rules for using tasers than the university, which has in its official policy that the taser can be appropriately used as an enforcement tool. They may wish to rethink this policy in the future, but as of now the security officers were probably in accordance with university policy.

Now if three police officers found themselves surrounded by a growing crowd, and a combative young man encouraging the crowd to join his "resistance", they very well might have been concerned for their own safety. Also, they were trying to get the guy to walk willingly down a flight of stairs. Nobody in their right mind will drag a limp "resisting" body or a combative "resisting" body down a flight of stairs. The risk of real injury to all concerned is too high.

I think a lot of folks, particularly very young folks, are so enamored with themselves and their wishes, their "rights", that they totally ignore the other half of the equasion... their responsibility to behave in a mature, respectful manner and act in accordance with the laws and rules governing the places they wish to visit. Being on a university campus is not a "right". It's a privilege. Privileges can be revoked when one refuses to accept the rules put in place for the safety and enjoyment of the facility by all. This young man abused his privilege in order to push his own agenda.

Of course he's already hired a lawyer, screamed "racism", and will try to manufacture huge dollars from the wallets of taxpayers. Being rewarded for acting like a jerk is, after all, the American way.

wyldejackyl · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 7172 Location: Chicago, IL

That's right. He was responsible to leave or show ID. he was on his way out, and was tazered. I don't care what police department it was (I thought UCLA's police were a subsidiary of the local police?)..what they did was uncalled for. It's like hitting a non-compliant 5 year old with a baseball bat, repeatedly.

Your anecdote about the police officers is false. They found themselves among a growing crowd, too pussified to do anything on the victim's behalf. The tazer victim didn't encourage the crowd to do anything to the cops. Also, all university buildings have elevators, thanks to the handicapped people fighting for their rights. If it was absolutely necessary, they could take him down in an elevator, although there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of him struggling prior to being zapped. Other than him telling them not to touch him, you can't see anything.

I think a lot of folks, particularly old folks, are so enamored with their government and the belief that it's infallible, that they totally ignore the other half of the equation...their responsiblity to challenge authority that has overstepped its bounds and exercising their rights when appropriate- especially during a police confrontation that was taken to the extreme by cops that outnumbered their prey. Being on a university campus is a right afforded to those who pay tuition, but rules must be obeyed. Reasonable enforcement of rules is to be expected, not repeated electrical shock therapy for someone who was in the process of leaving and not showing ID. The others in the facility were neither in danger nor not able to enjoy themselves by him walking out of there..it was when the cops intervened did the scene happen. This young man was exercising his right to be in the library and in the process of waiving that right in lieu of not showing ID, when he was attacked. He has no agenda other than exposing the police's action for what it is: illegal.

Of course he's already hired a lawyer, screamed racism (don't know that I agree with that), and will try to garner money from taxpayers wallets in hope that the bureaucrats and sadists that are in charge of law enforcement have attention drawn upon them for their f**k-ups.

Di · Joined: 30 Aug 2004 Posts: 929 Location: Northern Calif

wyldejackyl wrote: That's right. He was responsible to leave or show ID. he was on his way out, and was tazered.

Really? You're quite certain of that? Because according to the university's press release, he wasn't tasered until after he had refused several requests to leave the area AND had began inciting the gathering crowd to "join his resistance."

Quote: I don't care what police department it was (I thought UCLA's police were a subsidiary of the local police?)..what they did was uncalled for. It's like hitting a non-compliant 5 year old with a baseball bat, repeatedly.

That is a ridiculous analogy. This was not a 5-year-old, it was a narcisstic 23-year-old with delusions of grandeur who refused the lawful instructions of the university security officers. They did not bash his skull in with a baseball bat; they used a non-lethal but painful taser in apparently compliance with university rules of conduct for their campus security officers.

Quote: Your anecdote about the police officers is false. They found themselves among a growing crowd, too pussified to do anything on the victim's behalf. The tazer victim didn't encourage the crowd to do anything to the cops.

Says you. The security officers and some other witnesses have said otherwise according to some reports, reports which apparently you have no interest in believing. That's your choice. However, I suggest that folks take a chill pill and do what Chancellor Abrams has requested, wait until the result of the investigation before simply accepting one side of the situation as gospel, and ignore anything that doesn't support what you want to believe.

Quote: Also, all university buildings have elevators, thanks to the handicapped people fighting for their rights. If it was absolutely necessary, they could take him down in an elevator, although there is absolutely NO EVIDENCE of him struggling prior to being zapped. Other than him telling them not to touch him, you can't see anything.

Again, there is indeed evidence. The statement of several people, including the security officers, who saw what happened before folks whipped out their video devices. This is why trials have two sides before juries are allowed to mete out punishment. :)

Quote: I think a lot of folks, particularly old folks, are so enamored with their government and the belief that it's infallible, that they totally ignore the other half of the equation...their responsiblity to challenge authority that has overstepped its bounds and exercising their rights when appropriate- especially during a police confrontation that was taken to the extreme by cops that outnumbered their prey.

ROFL. Yep, yep, total objectivity being shown here. :lol:

Quote: Being on a university campus is a right afforded to those who pay tuition, but rules must be obeyed.

No, it's a privelege which can be revoked for cause. Period.

Quote: Reasonable enforcement of rules is to be expected, not repeated electrical shock therapy for someone who was in the process of leaving and not showing ID.

According to the university rules on the use of taser, the officers involved were exercising reasonable enforcement. I personally think repeated tasering was excessive, and wouldn't shed tears if they were fired for doing so. However, the rules as currently written allowed them to do exactly what they did. And again, the instigator in question was NOT in the process of leaving before being tasered. He went limp, and refused to walk on his own. Then he was tasered, after which time he apparently could not walk on his own. You really should review all the facts, not just those that support your personal hatred and bias.

Quote: ... He has no agenda other than exposing the police's action for what it is: illegal.

He has no agenda? He has told you this personally, has he? Because I could swear that refusing to show I.D., refusing to leave the library when repeatedly asked to leave, and trying to intice onlookers into joining his "resistance" looks like an agenda to me. And the security officers' actions may not be illegal at all if what they did is in compliance with UCLA rules on taser use... which it apparently was, although as I've said I suspect they will be amending those rules soon. Do your homework before you make wild allegations. :)

Quote: Of course he's already hired a lawyer, screamed racism (don't know that I agree with that), and will try to garner money from taxpayers wallets in hope that the bureaucrats and sadists that are in charge of law enforcement have attention drawn upon them for their f**k-ups.

Again, you're simply regurgitating your own bias and hatred. I've already explained that your simplistic statements about how the incident happened are demonstrably incorrect. When the full investigation is complete and both sides of the story have been adequately revealed, I'll make my own final judgment. I guess it's too much to ask you to do the same.