Political Crossfire Forums

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

flattery will get you everywhere.

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3500 Location: Tulsa, OK

The Comrade wrote: flattery will get you everywhere. Do you believe that it is wise or ethical to taser handcuffed, defenseless individuals who could very easily be dealt with through alternative methods?

The Grandmaster · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:49 pm Post subject:

JDHURF wrote: Oh that video was repulsive. No one in their right mind can argue that the police were in the right for tasering a handcuffed student, that is outrageous. Police handcuff individuals everyday and lift them to their feet with their own man-power, to taser a handcuffed student because they are not getting up off of the floor, that the police put them down on, is a repuslive and egregious breech of power. Anyone who is arguing the contrary is pathalogical.

I agree.

But in fairness, I couldn't finished the whole video.

I almost put my first through the computer screen about 3 minutes in.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

JDHURF wrote: The Comrade wrote: flattery will get you everywhere. Do you believe that it is wise or ethical to taser handcuffed, defenseless individuals who could very easily be dealt with through alternative methods?

he wasn't handcuffed when they first tasered him.

and i find that the use of a taser was appropriate in this situation.

The Grandmaster · Posted: Mon Nov 20, 2006 8:54 pm Post subject:

The Comrade wrote: JDHURF wrote: The Comrade wrote: flattery will get you everywhere. Do you believe that it is wise or ethical to taser handcuffed, defenseless individuals who could very easily be dealt with through alternative methods?

he wasn't handcuffed when they first tasered him.

Really? Where did you see that? I don't think you could see that in the video. Did the article say that? It might have and I missed it, but I don't remember that.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

The Grandmaster wrote:

Really? Where did you see that? I don't think you could see that in the video. Did the article say that? It might have and I missed it, but I don't remember that.

he was pull his whole "get off me" thing when he got it. as far as i could see he was handcuffed when he was on the ground.

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3500 Location: Tulsa, OK

The Comrade wrote: he wasn't handcuffed when they first tasered him and i find that the use of a taser was appropriate in this situation. I’m not talking about them tasering him before he was on the ground in handcuffs (which no one knows if this was the case anyways) – I’m against using tasers across the board because it has resulted in too many deaths, but, we clearly have different priorities – I’m asking you if you believe it is a wise or ethical practice to taser defenseless human beings while they are on the floor in handcuffs. Do you not see anything wrong with using what has been a lethal means of remediation on individuals who have already been taken to the floor and handcuffed?

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3500 Location: Tulsa, OK

The Comrade wrote: The Grandmaster wrote:

Really? Where did you see that? I don't think you could see that in the video. Did the article say that? It might have and I missed it, but I don't remember that.

he was pull his whole "get off me" thing when he got it. as far as i could see he was handcuffed when he was on the ground. In the video you can only hear the beginning of what is going on, visually all you see is a few computer screens, a student sitting at a computer screen to the right of the person taping; there is no real indication that the individual was being taserd before he was on the ground in handcuffs, however, there is clear video evidence that the student was tasered while on the floor in handcuffs and the latter is the issue which takes priority.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

JDHURF wrote: I’m not talking about them tasering him before he was on the ground in handcuffs (which no one knows if this was the case anyways) – I’m against using tasers across the board because it has resulted in too many deaths, but, we clearly have different priorities – I’m asking you if you believe it is a wise or ethical practice to taser defenseless human beings while they are on the floor in handcuffs. Do you not see anything wrong with using what has been a lethal means of remediation on individuals who have already been taken to the floor and handcuffed?

guns cause too many deaths. do you think the police shouldn't carry those?

nightsticks have caused too many deaths. get rid of them too?

i'm sure mace and tear gas have caused a few. get rid of that?

so should the police bare knuckle fight suspects?

and he was told to stand, he didn't. he was warned and he knew the consequences of it and he still refused. no one is to blame but him.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

JDHURF wrote: In the video you can only hear the beginning of what is going on, visually all you see is a few computer screens, a student sitting at a computer screen to the right of the person taping; there is no real indication that the individual was being taserd before he was on the ground in handcuffs, however, there is clear video evidence that the student was tasered while on the floor in handcuffs and the latter is the issue which takes priority.

you can see him getting handcuffed on the floor after he was first tasered.

lovebush · Joined: 02 Aug 2006 Posts: 1147

The Grandmaster wrote: [

Well f**k yeah he resisted! He was humilated, drunk, and pissed. A headlock on one side and a leglock on the other fixed that up real good. And he wasn't even cuffed. Cox's pub not far down the road from here.

Come on now GM you can tell us. It was you wasnt it? :P

lovebush · Joined: 02 Aug 2006 Posts: 1147

JDHURF wrote: Oh that video was repulsive. No one in their right mind can argue that the police were in the right for tasering a handcuffed student, that is outrageous. Police handcuff individuals everyday and lift them to their feet with their own man-power, to taser a handcuffed student because they are not getting up off of the floor, that the police put them down on, is a repuslive and egregious breech of power. Anyone who is arguing the contrary is pathalogical.

can you mail me a prescription doc? yes they can and it appeared to me they were picking him up but he was refusing to put his feet down and walk. they should have grabbed his ear with a car key or the point of their hand cuffs pressing hard behind the earlobe and pulled up and forward. my brother showed me how effective this is at getting people to move how you want them to move. it hurts like hell. Of course the bleeding hearts would be crying about that as being to abusive to the idiot.

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3500 Location: Tulsa, OK

The Comrade wrote: guns cause too many deaths. do you think the police shouldn't carry those?
Police do not use guns, they do not shoot people, simply to restrain them. Guns are for the officers protection, is your claim that the student who had been shot with a taser, brought to the ground and handcuffed was still a going threat to the four police officers?
The Comrade wrote: nightsticks have caused too many deaths. get rid of them too?
Deaths caused by nightsticks do not compare to those caused by tasers.
The Comrade wrote: i'm sure mace and tear gas have caused a few. get rid of that?
Show me one instance of death caused by use of mace.
The Comrade wrote: so should the police bare knuckle fight suspects?
Of course not. The converse of your question would be: should the police bare knuckle fight a defenseless and handcuffed subject?
The Comrade wrote: and he was told to stand, he didn't. he was warned and he knew the consequences of it and he still refused. no one is to blame but him.
The police had the student handcuffed on the floor, they shouldn’t have “warned” him of the consequences of not getting up. They should have done what police throughout the country do everyday when a subject is on the ground in handcuffs, got the subject to their feet with their own manpower; it’s not hard to do.

lovebush · Joined: 02 Aug 2006 Posts: 1147

JDHURF wrote: The Comrade wrote: he wasn't handcuffed when they first tasered him and i find that the use of a taser was appropriate in this situation. I’m not talking about them tasering him before he was on the ground in handcuffs (which no one knows if this was the case anyways) – I’m against using tasers across the board because it has resulted in too many deaths, but, we clearly have different priorities – I’m asking you if you believe it is a wise or ethical practice to taser defenseless human beings while they are on the floor in handcuffs. Do you not see anything wrong with using what has been a lethal means of remediation on individuals who have already been taken to the floor and handcuffed?

Tases have saved many lives, they are a great option in situations that might otherwise require deadly force. Almost all of the tase related deaths had large amounts of drugs in the person.

Yen · Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 4

Lets assume for a moment that the first tazering was justified and appropriate. The only possible reason for this would be becasue he was a threat to the officers or bystanders. Its impossible to tell if this is the case from the video, so lets assume it is. He's a threat, bang goes the taser, down goes the threat, he is now no longer a threat.

Except that the police by their own admission did not use the taser in its "stun" setting, they used it in its "pain" setting. Reflect on that for a moment, if he had been a threat, zap him and send him down with a stun, but the pain setting??? Thats just to gain compliance, compliance through exerted pain, the threat of more pain to follow. This is not the actions of a free society, that is the actions of a mongrel who has his authority challenged.

But disregard all that for a moment, lets go back to assuming the first tasing IS justified. When you have him down on the ground, in handcuffs, and outnumber him 3 to 1, he is not a threat. Why taze him further? Pain compliance, or ego trip, you decide, the main point is that a non threat was electrocuted. Passive resistance aside (as that is not assault), they blitzed his body with electricity, because he was defying their authority in a minor way, and they reminded him of who had the power. Police officers do not function like this.

Sociopaths function like this.

JDHURF · Joined: 01 Jul 2006 Posts: 3500 Location: Tulsa, OK

lovebush wrote:

Tases have saved many lives, they are a great option in situations that might otherwise require deadly force. Almost all of the tase related deaths had large amounts of drugs in the person. In situations which would otherwise require deadly force I have no problem with the use of taser guns, but, this case is certainly not one of them.

lovebush · Joined: 02 Aug 2006 Posts: 1147

Yen wrote: Lets assume for a moment that the first tazering was justified and appropriate. The only possible reason for this would be becasue he was a threat to the officers or bystanders. Its impossible to tell if this is the case from the video, so lets assume it is. He's a threat, bang goes the taser, down goes the threat, he is now no longer a threat.

Except that the police by their own admission did not use the taser in its "stun" setting, they used it in its "pain" setting. Reflect on that for a moment, if he had been a threat, zap him and send him down with a stun, but the pain setting??? Thats just to gain compliance, compliance through exerted pain, the threat of more pain to follow. This is not the actions of a free society, that is the actions of a mongrel who has his authority challenged.

But disregard all that for a moment, lets go back to assuming the first tasing IS justified. When you have him down on the ground, in handcuffs, and outnumber him 3 to 1, he is not a threat. Why taze him further? Pain compliance, or ego trip, you decide, the main point is that a non threat was electrocuted. Passive resistance aside (as that is not assault), they blitzed his body with electricity, because he was defying their authority in a minor way, and they reminded him of who had the power. Police officers do not function like this.

Sociopaths function like this.

Pain has been used by cops to get compliance for a long time. My brother has showed me many of his techniques and they are anything but painless. Do you ever watch cops?

Yen · Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 4

Quote: Pain has been used by cops to get compliance for a long time. My brother has showed me many of his techniques and they are anything but painless. Do you ever watch cops?

Where you building to an argument somewhere in that or did I miss something?

root555 · Joined: 20 Nov 2006 Posts: 10 Location: Seoul, S. Korea

One of my friends got tazered for an article he was writing for the local paper. While he was tazered, one of his friends used his SLR camera to take a shot by shot account of his body and facial expressions during the process- in which he proceeded to show my and narrarate photo by photo. Didn't seem like a lot of fun. I thought only animae characters were capable of making the big mouth, small eyed expression. Guess I was wrong.

wyldejackyl · Joined: 10 Apr 2006 Posts: 7195 Location: Chicago, IL

lovebush wrote:

Pain has been used by cops to get compliance for a long time. My brother has showed me many of his techniques and they are anything but painless. Do you ever watch cops?

Sure. There's a difference between compliance and punishment. There was no need for "pain compliance" when they could have easily helped him to his feet and walked him out of there (assuming a tazer was needed in the first place, which I believe it wasn't - the video doesn't show either way).

I'm with you Grandmaster, I almost couldn't watch that video myself it made me so mad. I'm surprised none of the other pu**y students stepped in and stopped the cops.

And Comrade, I wasn't assuming you'd get involved directly with the cops when you get older and are in college, but unless you do not leave your room, you will undoubtedly see them doing their "jobs" in various ways around campus. When i was at UIUC, IIRC, 15 cops beat a homeless man to death with batons because he was "a threat." Also, IIRC, nothing became of that investigation. Yes, things will happen, cops are not infallible, and neither is the law.