Political Crossfire Forums

[flamboyant]

I can't take it any more. I've mentioned this in a couple threads, but it's gotten so bad, it deserves a thread all it's own. Honest to God, I have never in my life seen such a strawman argument spread like it was the gospel truth as the bulls**t claim that a large number of Republicans were coming out saying that it was unpatriotic to be a dissenter against the war.

Now there were a few people in the anti-war movement who may have caused us to call them unpatriotic, the Code Pink Commies and the blame America first crowd who reflexively hate everything the U.S. has ever done in it's history, or Cindy Sheehan, who milked her status as the "peace mom" never paying any attention to the fact that Casey believed in the mission so much he actually signed up and returned for a second tour, never respecting Casey's father's side of the family calling for her to please quit disrespecting Casey's memory.

I mean, Cindy Sheehan has said, "The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush" and has schmoozed it up with hardcore America-haters like Hugo Chavez. How can you blame us for calling that woman an unpatriotic media w****?

But this endless repetition that there was vast right-wing accusation that SIMPLY FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR, it made you unpatriotic - nothing could be further from the truth. The lie gets repeated 1,000 times a day though and I guess after a while people really do start to believe it was a widespread accusation.

The truth is, the president said it as plainly as can be, patriotic Americans can disagree with the war. He said he understood that completely and yet now you have people from foreign countries here on the forum, under the impression that there were widespread accusations of "un-American" leveled at the war dissenters. It's just not true. If it did happen, it was one or two nuts on Internet forums. I can't think of anyone on the national stage that suggested dissent against the war, in and of itself was unpatriotic.

Show me the quotes if you have them, but if you do find one or two, for every one you can find that actually said it, I have about 200 times that many people repeating this, the greatest strawman arguement ever made.

[Zoot]

Quote: I mean, Cindy Sheehan has said, "The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush" and has schmoozed it up with hardcore America-haters like Hugo Chavez. How can you blame us for calling that woman an unpatriotic media w****?

Pretty easily. I mean, Bush may not technically be a terrorist (unlike, say, Reagan), but his crimes have caused the deaths of more innocent civilians in three years than terrorism ever has.

And Hugo Chavez comes from a country and a region that has been routinely f****d by people like Bush. And Bush is a hardcore Venezuela-hater.

So... it's a bit silly to hassle Cindy Sheehan for those things, at least.

[Charlie Man]

So rumsfield, cheney, et al. saying this... doesn't count as something to complain about?

Look, I am perfectly aware that the people saying that dissent is unpatriotic during a time of war are the minority, but they are still powerful. It doesn't make Attorney General Gonzales' opinions regarding executive powers OKAY just because he's one man, he's the freaking attorney general.

[IronBrigadeMike (IBM)]

Zoot wrote: Quote: I mean, Cindy Sheehan has said, "The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush" and has schmoozed it up with hardcore America-haters like Hugo Chavez. How can you blame us for calling that woman an unpatriotic media w****?

Pretty easily. I mean, Bush may not technically be a terrorist (unlike, say, Reagan), but his crimes have caused the deaths of more innocent civilians in three years than terrorism ever has.

And Hugo Chavez comes from a country and a region that has been routinely f****d by people like Bush. And Bush is a hardcore Venezuela-hater.

So... it's a bit silly to hassle Cindy Sheehan for those things, at least.

:gdgf:

[Dookiestix]

Zoot wrote: Quote: I mean, Cindy Sheehan has said, "The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush" and has schmoozed it up with hardcore America-haters like Hugo Chavez. How can you blame us for calling that woman an unpatriotic media w****?

Pretty easily. I mean, Bush may not technically be a terrorist (unlike, say, Reagan), but his crimes have caused the deaths of more innocent civilians in three years than terrorism ever has.

And Hugo Chavez comes from a country and a region that has been routinely f****d by people like Bush. And Bush is a hardcore Venezuela-hater.

So... it's a bit silly to hassle Cindy Sheehan for those things, at least.
Careful Zoot, you're not sounding very patriotic. :wink:

I find it hysterical that the OP claims there weren't any "large" number of Republicans coming out saying that it was unpatriotic to be a dissenter against the war when in the same breath calls such organizations as Code Pink and Cindy Sheehan for exactly that. How soon we forget Sean Hannity, Melanie Morgan, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, and many on this forum who we fortunately haven't heard from in a while, all accusing those of us for being against this war early on as "terrorist appeasers," "un-patriotic," "troop hater," and "America hater." I mean, what a crock.

You can't take it anymore? Bush's conciliatory tone only changed when America turned on him and this war. He wasn't NEARLY as conciliatory, nor were his PC followers, when the left was questioning the war and his wisdom early on.

There IS no lie. Only the reality that what you quote from Bush regarding Americans who disagree with this war as being patriotic is something he's only been recently saying.

I remember it vividly; if you were anti-Bush, you were anti-American. If you were anti-war, you were anti-troop. If you were anti-evesdropping without proper warrants, you were anti-terrorist surveillance. This was all political, and it was all bullsh!t, and I heard it plenty on this forum. I don't have the time to go back and review every single post, and the OP damn well knows that.

One or two nuts on the Internet forums?

:lol:

[Bull]

flamboyant wrote: I can't take it any more. I've mentioned this in a couple threads, but it's gotten so bad, it deserves a thread all it's own. Honest to God, I have never in my life seen such a strawman argument spread like it was the gospel truth as the bulls**t claim that a large number of Republicans were coming out saying that it was unpatriotic to be a dissenter against the war.

Now there were a few people in the anti-war movement who may have caused us to call them unpatriotic, the Code Pink Commies and the blame America first crowd who reflexively hate everything the U.S. has ever done in it's history, or Cindy Sheehan, who milked her status as the "peace mom" never paying any attention to the fact that Casey believed in the mission so much he actually signed up and returned for a second tour, never respecting Casey's father's side of the family calling for her to please quit disrespecting Casey's memory.

I mean, Cindy Sheehan has said, "The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush" and has schmoozed it up with hardcore America-haters like Hugo Chavez. How can you blame us for calling that woman an unpatriotic media w****?

But this endless repetition that there was vast right-wing accusation that SIMPLY FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR, it made you unpatriotic - nothing could be further from the truth. The lie gets repeated 1,000 times a day though and I guess after a while people really do start to believe it was a widespread accusation.

The truth is, the president said it as plainly as can be, patriotic Americans can disagree with the war. He said he understood that completely and yet now you have people from foreign countries here on the forum, under the impression that there were widespread accusations of "un-American" leveled at the war dissenters. It's just not true. If it did happen, it was one or two nuts on Internet forums. I can't think of anyone on the national stage that suggested dissent against the war, in and of itself was unpatriotic.

Show me the quotes if you have them, but if you do find one or two, for every one you can find that actually said it, I have about 200 times that many people repeating this, the greatest strawman arguement ever made.

Welcome to my world Flam...and I agree, Cindy Sheehan has given people like me a bad name. But the thing is, I'm not a pacifist. I believe in the NEED for war (like WW2...and well, everything after that could have been avoided honestly). I disagree with going to war for shady reasons or seemingly corporate reasons. I don't like the fact that the Iraq war was planned in the 1990's and executed and exploited at a time when the nation was at its weakest. THAT'S what I disagree with. I think most people will agree with me that if everything the Bush administration had said was true...there would be no argument. If all the claims about Saddam being able to launch live nukes at us and hit any major city and the push of a buttom were true...then I wouldn't care that we're over there. The fact of the matter is all that propaganda is not true and never was. Then Bush's supporters say Saddam was LOOKING to get nukes. Maybe he was, but so are MANY other nations (some not the most savory of people either).

[Snoop]

Charlie Man wrote: So rumsfield, cheney, et al. saying this... doesn't count as something to complain about?

Look, I am perfectly aware that the people saying that dissent is unpatriotic during a time of war are the minority, but they are still powerful. It doesn't make Attorney General Gonzales' opinions regarding executive powers OKAY just because he's one man, he's the freaking attorney general.

Yep and Gonzales' is Attorney General for a reason....

[Timmytour]

I completely agree with the OP

I vividly remember imagining Bush say "you are either with us or we will respect your right to disagree" :lol:

[bob.appleyard]

Timmytour wrote: I completely agree with the OP

I vividly remember imagining Bush say "you are either with us or we will respect your right to disagree" :lol:

End of thread.

[Ozzone]

Timmytour wrote: I completely agree with the OP

I vividly remember imagining Bush say "you are either with us or we will respect your right to disagree" :lol:

I vividly remember President Bush referring to other countries in regards to the War on Terror.

[homerjay_s]

flamboyant wrote: I can't take it any more. I've mentioned this in a couple threads, but it's gotten so bad, it deserves a thread all it's own. Honest to God, I have never in my life seen such a strawman argument spread like it was the gospel truth as the bulls**t claim that a large number of Republicans were coming out saying that it was unpatriotic to be a dissenter against the war.

Now there were a few people in the anti-war movement who may have caused us to call them unpatriotic, the Code Pink Commies and the blame America first crowd who reflexively hate everything the U.S. has ever done in it's history, or Cindy Sheehan, who milked her status as the "peace mom" never paying any attention to the fact that Casey believed in the mission so much he actually signed up and returned for a second tour, never respecting Casey's father's side of the family calling for her to please quit disrespecting Casey's memory.

I mean, Cindy Sheehan has said, "The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush" and has schmoozed it up with hardcore America-haters like Hugo Chavez. How can you blame us for calling that woman an unpatriotic media w****?

But this endless repetition that there was vast right-wing accusation that SIMPLY FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR, it made you unpatriotic - nothing could be further from the truth. The lie gets repeated 1,000 times a day though and I guess after a while people really do start to believe it was a widespread accusation.

The truth is, the president said it as plainly as can be, patriotic Americans can disagree with the war. He said he understood that completely and yet now you have people from foreign countries here on the forum, under the impression that there were widespread accusations of "un-American" leveled at the war dissenters. It's just not true. If it did happen, it was one or two nuts on Internet forums. I can't think of anyone on the national stage that suggested dissent against the war, in and of itself was unpatriotic.

Show me the quotes if you have them, but if you do find one or two, for every one you can find that actually said it, I have about 200 times that many people repeating this, the greatest strawman arguement ever made.


George W Bush wrote: Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists

www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html

George W Bush wrote: You are either with us or you are against us in the fight against terror.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011106-4.html

[flamboyant]

Dookiestix wrote: Zoot wrote: Quote: I mean, Cindy Sheehan has said, "The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush" and has schmoozed it up with hardcore America-haters like Hugo Chavez. How can you blame us for calling that woman an unpatriotic media w****?

Pretty easily. I mean, Bush may not technically be a terrorist (unlike, say, Reagan), but his crimes have caused the deaths of more innocent civilians in three years than terrorism ever has.

And Hugo Chavez comes from a country and a region that has been routinely f****d by people like Bush. And Bush is a hardcore Venezuela-hater.

So... it's a bit silly to hassle Cindy Sheehan for those things, at least.
Careful Zoot, you're not sounding very patriotic. :wink:

I find it hysterical that the OP claims there weren't any "large" number of Republicans coming out saying that it was unpatriotic to be a dissenter against the war when in the same breath calls such organizations as Code Pink and Cindy Sheehan for exactly that. How soon we forget Sean Hannity, Melanie Morgan, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, and many on this forum who we fortunately haven't heard from in a while, all accusing those of us for being against this war early on as "terrorist appeasers," "un-patriotic," "troop hater," and "America hater." I mean, what a crock.

You can't take it anymore? Bush's conciliatory tone only changed when America turned on him and this war. He wasn't NEARLY as conciliatory, nor were his PC followers, when the left was questioning the war and his wisdom early on.

There IS no lie. Only the reality that what you quote from Bush regarding Americans who disagree with this war as being patriotic is something he's only been recently saying.

I remember it vividly; if you were anti-Bush, you were anti-American. If you were anti-war, you were anti-troop. If you were anti-evesdropping without proper warrants, you were anti-terrorist surveillance. This was all political, and it was all bullsh!t, and I heard it plenty on this forum. I don't have the time to go back and review every single post, and the OP damn well knows that.

One or two nuts on the Internet forums?

:lol:

Do you really read the posts you reply to? How do you not grasp the following statement:

Quote: But this endless repetition that there was vast right-wing accusation that SIMPLY FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR, it made you unpatriotic - nothing could be further from the truth.

Should I make one of those charts so you can visualize how Code Pink is a small subset of all those who opposed the war? Do you think that might help you grasp it?

[Dookiestix]

flamboyant wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Zoot wrote: Quote: I mean, Cindy Sheehan has said, "The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush" and has schmoozed it up with hardcore America-haters like Hugo Chavez. How can you blame us for calling that woman an unpatriotic media w****?

Pretty easily. I mean, Bush may not technically be a terrorist (unlike, say, Reagan), but his crimes have caused the deaths of more innocent civilians in three years than terrorism ever has.

And Hugo Chavez comes from a country and a region that has been routinely f****d by people like Bush. And Bush is a hardcore Venezuela-hater.

So... it's a bit silly to hassle Cindy Sheehan for those things, at least.
Careful Zoot, you're not sounding very patriotic. :wink:

I find it hysterical that the OP claims there weren't any "large" number of Republicans coming out saying that it was unpatriotic to be a dissenter against the war when in the same breath calls such organizations as Code Pink and Cindy Sheehan for exactly that. How soon we forget Sean Hannity, Melanie Morgan, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, and many on this forum who we fortunately haven't heard from in a while, all accusing those of us for being against this war early on as "terrorist appeasers," "un-patriotic," "troop hater," and "America hater." I mean, what a crock.

You can't take it anymore? Bush's conciliatory tone only changed when America turned on him and this war. He wasn't NEARLY as conciliatory, nor were his PC followers, when the left was questioning the war and his wisdom early on.

There IS no lie. Only the reality that what you quote from Bush regarding Americans who disagree with this war as being patriotic is something he's only been recently saying.

I remember it vividly; if you were anti-Bush, you were anti-American. If you were anti-war, you were anti-troop. If you were anti-evesdropping without proper warrants, you were anti-terrorist surveillance. This was all political, and it was all bullsh!t, and I heard it plenty on this forum. I don't have the time to go back and review every single post, and the OP damn well knows that.

One or two nuts on the Internet forums?

:lol:

Do you really read the posts you reply to? How do you not grasp the following statement:

Quote: But this endless repetition that there was vast right-wing accusation that SIMPLY FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR, it made you unpatriotic - nothing could be further from the truth.

Should I make one of those charts so you can visualize how Code Pink is a small subset of all those who opposed the war? Do you think that might help you grasp it?
You do think they and Cindy Sheehan are anti-American, do you not?

Keep 'em comin'... :lol:

[Timmytour]

Ozzone wrote: Timmytour wrote: I completely agree with the OP

I vividly remember imagining Bush say "you are either with us or we will respect your right to disagree" :lol:

I vividly remember President Bush referring to other countries in regards to the War on Terror.

The title of the thread refers to a debate.

Not a competition :lol:

[Moracca]

I'm tired of patriotism being defined as dissent. That's what I'm tired of. In my view, dissent doesn't make you "unpatriotic", but agreeing with the government on any given issue doesn't either.

[Dookiestix]

Moracca wrote: I'm tired of patriotism being defined as dissent. That's what I'm tired of. In my view, dissent doesn't make you "unpatriotic", but agreeing with the government on any given issue doesn't either.
Actually, it's the other way around. Dissent is just another form of Patriotism.

[flamboyant]

homerjay_s wrote: George W Bush wrote: Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists

www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/09/20010920-8.html

George W Bush wrote: You are either with us or you are against us in the fight against terror.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2001/11/20011106-4.html

Finally someone volunteers an actual quote. I think calling out other nations who may be tempted to look the other way as an accusation of "unpatriotic" or "un-American" for the dissenters as a pretty big stretch, especially when you consider this quote from back in the run up to the 2004 election where he made it quite clear:

George W. Bush wrote: For example, if we look at the situation in Iraq, it's very hard to tell what John Kerry really believes with respect to Iraq. (Laughter.) He's had a number of positions on the matter. He initially -- of course, if you go back and look at his track record over the years, and I don't mean by any means to disparage his military service. He served in Vietnam. I think as we honor all the veterans, we also need to honor John Kerry's service in Vietnam. That's altogether fitting and proper that we do so. I've never criticized that. Nobody has ever suggested he's unpatriotic, no matter what the opposition might say.

And so way back during the 2004 election, he was already discussing this "unpatriotic" strawman argument and denying it as plainly as could be.

George W. Bush wrote: Nobody has ever suggested he's unpatriotic, no matter what the opposition might say.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2004/09/20040914-7.html

[flamboyant]

Dookiestix wrote: flamboyant wrote: Dookiestix wrote: Zoot wrote: Quote: I mean, Cindy Sheehan has said, "The biggest terrorist in the world is George W. Bush" and has schmoozed it up with hardcore America-haters like Hugo Chavez. How can you blame us for calling that woman an unpatriotic media w****?

Pretty easily. I mean, Bush may not technically be a terrorist (unlike, say, Reagan), but his crimes have caused the deaths of more innocent civilians in three years than terrorism ever has.

And Hugo Chavez comes from a country and a region that has been routinely f****d by people like Bush. And Bush is a hardcore Venezuela-hater.

So... it's a bit silly to hassle Cindy Sheehan for those things, at least.
Careful Zoot, you're not sounding very patriotic. :wink:

I find it hysterical that the OP claims there weren't any "large" number of Republicans coming out saying that it was unpatriotic to be a dissenter against the war when in the same breath calls such organizations as Code Pink and Cindy Sheehan for exactly that. How soon we forget Sean Hannity, Melanie Morgan, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O'Reilly, and many on this forum who we fortunately haven't heard from in a while, all accusing those of us for being against this war early on as "terrorist appeasers," "un-patriotic," "troop hater," and "America hater." I mean, what a crock.

You can't take it anymore? Bush's conciliatory tone only changed when America turned on him and this war. He wasn't NEARLY as conciliatory, nor were his PC followers, when the left was questioning the war and his wisdom early on.

There IS no lie. Only the reality that what you quote from Bush regarding Americans who disagree with this war as being patriotic is something he's only been recently saying.

I remember it vividly; if you were anti-Bush, you were anti-American. If you were anti-war, you were anti-troop. If you were anti-evesdropping without proper warrants, you were anti-terrorist surveillance. This was all political, and it was all bullsh!t, and I heard it plenty on this forum. I don't have the time to go back and review every single post, and the OP damn well knows that.

One or two nuts on the Internet forums?

:lol:

Do you really read the posts you reply to? How do you not grasp the following statement:

Quote: But this endless repetition that there was vast right-wing accusation that SIMPLY FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR, it made you unpatriotic - nothing could be further from the truth.

Should I make one of those charts so you can visualize how Code Pink is a small subset of all those who opposed the war? Do you think that might help you grasp it?
You do think they and Cindy Sheehan are anti-American, do you not?

Keep 'em comin'... :lol:

You are borderline flatlining on a brainscan if you can't grasp the difference.

Is it possible that some of the anti-war protesters are unpatriotic America haters?

Yes.

Does saying that equate to saying that SIMPLY FOR DISAGREEING WITH THE WAR, it made you unpatriotic?

Hell no.

You really can't grasp the difference?

[Tono]

bob.appleyard wrote: End of thread.

Hey. That's my line. :lol:

[Timmytour]

If it is a competition, can I nominate this......?


http://www.defendamerica.mil/articles/oct2006/a102306sj1.html


Quote: Electricity Levels in Baghdad at All Time Lows
Nine of the transmission lines bringing power into Baghdad
have been interdicted. Blown up. Down and out.

By U.S. Army Sgt. Frank Pellegrini

BAGHDAD, Oct. 23, 2006 — Everybody knows the bad news: In September, the lights were on in Baghdad for around four hours a day. One study has October’s levels so far at 2.4, the lowest since the invasion.

I did start up a thread a while back to try and get the best spin on iraq award going but, quite frankly, it bombed.

So I´m now trying to enter it in another category and hope it qualifies...

What I think gives it credence is what the article goes on to say.....

Quote: Baghdad is also short on power because the rest of Iraq’s population is enjoying levels of electricity it’s never seen before

:lol: