Political Crossfire Forums

[TomStall]

As usual another brilliant essay from Dr. Sowell. The message is quite clear..................

It is the enemy within, the liberals, that are the true enemy. Ironically all the libs efforts to stop and prevent wars will only lead to a greater carnage where millions will die in hours. And the time for that is not far off..... :gdgf: :gdgf: :gdgf:

Quote: European nations protesting Saddam Hussein's death sentence, as they protested against forcing secrets out of captured terrorists, should tell us all we need to know about the internal degeneration of western society, where so many confuse squeamishness with morality.

Two generations of being insulated from the reality of the international jungle, of not having to defend their own survival because they have been living under the protection of the American nuclear umbrella, have allowed too many Europeans to grow soft and indulge themselves in illusions about brutal realities and dangers.

The very means of their salvation have been demonized for decades in anti-nuclear movements and protesters calling themselves "anti-war." But there is a huge difference between being anti-war in words and being anti-war in deeds.

How many times, in its thousands of years of history, has Europe gone 60 years without a major war, as it has since World War II? That peace has been due to American nuclear weapons, which was all that could deter the Soviet Union's armies from marching right across Europe to the Atlantic Ocean.

Having overwhelming military force on your side, and letting your enemies know that you have the guts to use it, is being genuinely anti-war. Chamberlain's appeasement brought on World War II and Reagan's military buildup ended the Cold War.

The famous Roman peace of ancient times did not come from negotiations, cease-fires, or pretty talk. It came from the Roman Empire's crushing defeat and annihilation of Carthage, which served as a warning to anyone else who might have had any bright ideas about messing with Rome.

Only after the Roman Empire began to lose its own internal cohesion, patriotism and fighting spirit over the centuries did it begin to succumb to its external enemies and finally collapse.

That seems to be where western civilization is heading today.

Internal cohesion? Not only does much of today's generation in western societies have a "do your own thing" attitude, defying rules and flouting authority are glorified and Balkanization through "multiculturalism" has become dogma.

Patriotism? Not only is patriotism disdained, the very basis for pride in one's country and culture is systematically undermined in our educational institutions at all levels.

The achievements of western civilization are buried in histories that portray every human sin found here as if they were peculiarities of the west.

The classic example is slavery, which existed all over the world for thousands of years and yet is incessantly depicted as if it was a peculiarity of Europeans enslaving Africans. Barbary pirates alone brought twice as many enslaved Europeans to North Africa as there were Africans brought in bondage to the United States and the American colonies from which it was formed.

How many schools and colleges are going to teach that, going against political correctness and undermining white guilt?

How many people have any inkling that it was precisely western civilization which eventually turned against slavery and began stamping it out when non-western societies still saw nothing wrong with it?

How can a generation be expected to fight for the survival of a culture or a civilization that has been trashed in its own institutions, taught to tolerate even the intolerance of other cultures brought into its own midst, and conditioned to regard any instinct to fight for its own survival as being a "cowboy"?

Western nations that show any signs of standing up for self-preservation are rare exceptions. The United States and Israel are the only western nations which have no choice but to rely on self-defense -- and both are demonized, not only by our enemies but also by many in other western nations.

Australia recently told its Muslim population that, if they want to live under Islamic law, then they should leave Australia. That makes three western nations that have not yet completely succumbed to the corrosive and suicidal trends of our times.

If and when we all succumb, will the epitaph of western civilization say that we had the power to annihilate our enemies but were so paralyzed by confusion that we ended up being annihilated ourselves?



Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=where_is_the_west&ns=ThomasSowell&dt=11/09/2006&page=1

[Thrilla]

I personally believe that if you reach the point where you believe that other American citizens who have differing ideas and perspective.. IE.. Liberals.... are the "true enemy".. one needs to seriously reevalute their own beliefs and perspectives.

I dont agree with most liberal polices...I think that much is evident.... but Ill be damned if Im going to label them an "enemy"... maybe our definitions of "enemy" differ..... but in any case..."true enemy" is some mighty strong rhetoric

as to the article...he has some decent points.. but

Quote: If and when we all succumb, will the epitaph of western civilization say that we had the power to annihilate our enemies but were so paralyzed by confusion that we ended up being annihilated ourselves? seems a bit "off the deep end" to me.... sure ,due to ideological differences, there will be missteps and falterings...even some confusion.... but to declare an impending "annihilation" is a bit to far for me

[Wizard From Oz]

Quote: Australia recently told its Muslim population that, if they want to live under Islamic law, then they should leave Australia. That makes three western nations that have not yet completely succumbed to the corrosive and suicidal trends of our times.

No they did not

[flamboyant]

Excellent op-ed piece. One great analysis deserves another and that one reminds me of an article entitled "Europe, Thy Name Is Cowardice," written by Mathias Döpfner, CEO of the large German publishing firm Axel Springer . . .

Quote: A few days ago, Henryk M. Broder wrote in the Welt am Sonntag, "Europe — thy name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so painfully true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and Gentiles their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated far too long before realizing that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to agreements. Appeasement stabilized the Communist Soviet Union and the former East Germany, those parts of Eastern Europe where inhuman, suppressive governments were glorified as the ideological alternative. Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and we debated and debated and were still debating when the Americans finally came in and did our work for us. Rather than protecting the only democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," relativizes the fundamentalist Palestinian suicide bombings in Israel. Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to condone the 300,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery in Iraq and condemn the actions of George Bush in the self-righteousness of the peace movement. And in the end it is also appeasement at its most grotesque when Germany reacts to the escalating violence of Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere by proposing a national Muslim holiday.

What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership realize that there is a form of crusade underway, an especially perfidious one of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims targeting civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies. This is a conflict that will likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century, waged by an adversary who cannot be tamed by tolerance and accommodation but is instead spurred on by such gestures, mistaking them as signs of weakness.

Two recent American presidents had the courage needed for staunch anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush. Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, and Bush — supported only by the persuasive Social Democrat politician Tony Blair — recognized the danger in the Islamic war against democracy. His place in history will need to be evaluated a number of years down the road.

In the meantime, Europe snuggles into its multicultural niche instead of defending the values of a liberal society with charismatic certitude and acting as a positive center of power in a delicate balance between the true global powers, America and China. We instead present ourselves as the world champions of tolerance against the intolerants, which even Otto Schily [Germany's former Federal Minister of the Interior] justifiably criticizes. And why, actually? Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic.

For his policies, Bush risks the devaluation of the dollar, huge amounts of added national debt, and a massive and lasting strain on the American economy — because everything is at stake.

Yet while America's so allegedly materialistic robber baron capitalists know their priorities, we timidly defend the benefice of our social affluence. Just stay out of it; it could get expensive. We'd rather discuss our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage or listen to televangelists preach about the need to "Reach out to murderers." These days, it sometimes seems that Europe is like a little old lady who cups her shaking hands around her last pieces of jewelry as a thief breaks in right next door. Europe, thy name is Cowardice.



http://www.snopes.com/politics/soapbox/dapfner.asp

I actually received that in an email but went to snopes to double-check that it really was written by a publishing mogul from Germany. Yep (although they claim it was touched up just a bit in the email that was floating around the Internet, so that's the snopes' approved translation there.)

You'd think all those knee-jerk appeasers in Europe would have learned a lesson or two from having fallen for Neville Chamberlain's appeasement policies.

[slitedeviance]

TomStall wrote: As usual another brilliant essay from Dr. Sowell. The message is quite clear..................

It is the enemy within, the liberals, that are the true enemy. Ironically all the libs efforts to stop and prevent wars will only lead to a greater carnage where millions will die in hours. And the time for that is not far off.....

:rofl:

Seriously? I guess us liberals should go and top ourselves for the good of the US, and Europe should go back to it's days of Nationalism to prevent the evil from the Muslims huh?

This guy rocks, in the same way as Tenacious D (so not very much)!

[flamboyant]

Well, I'm sure most liberals are proponents of assisted suicide, so any of you who feel the urge to top yourselves for the common good, I'll be more than happy to help.

After (hopefully) reading both those articles, I would at least hope you'd come out of it have something more intelligent to say than, "I guess us liberals should go and top ourselves for the good of the U.S." I mean, you could basically respond like that to any article that's launched from a conservative point of view. Next time, try addressing something that was actually said in the article - it makes it so much more interesting for the conversation.

[StrangerWitCandy]

You really want to declare liberals your enemy, good for you, go ahead and do that. You are effectively tearing your country apart.

And if you're asking for a fight don't complain when the liberals bring one.

[slitedeviance]

flamboyant wrote: Well, I'm sure most liberals are proponents of assisted suicide, so any of you who feel the urge to top yourselves for the common good, I'll be more than happy to help.

After (hopefully) reading both those articles, I would at least hope you'd come out of it have something more intelligent to say than, "I guess us liberals should go and top ourselves for the good of the U.S." I mean, you could basically respond like that to any article that's launched from a conservative point of view. Next time, try addressing something that was actually said in the article - it makes it so much more interesting for the conversation.

Whats to respond to? Both articles are Op Eds, and as such I'm entitled to retort with my own Op-Ed. The fact mine was a sentence or so long rather than several paragraphs is irrelevant.

Now, post some articles based on fact rather than subjective and deliberately selective interpretation of the current affairs in both Europe and the world, and I'll respond in kind.

But hey, at least I didn't lie like the guys you've quoted.

[Jimmy Madison]

TomStall wrote: As usual another brilliant essay from Dr. Sowell. The message is quite clear..................

It is the enemy within, the liberals, that are the true enemy. Ironically all the libs efforts to stop and prevent wars will only lead to a greater carnage where millions will die in hours. And the time for that is not far off..... :gdgf: :gdgf: :gdgf:

Quote: European nations protesting Saddam Hussein's death sentence, as they protested against forcing secrets out of captured terrorists, should tell us all we need to know about the internal degeneration of western society, where so many confuse squeamishness with morality.

Two generations of being insulated from the reality of the international jungle, of not having to defend their own survival because they have been living under the protection of the American nuclear umbrella, have allowed too many Europeans to grow soft and indulge themselves in illusions about brutal realities and dangers.

The very means of their salvation have been demonized for decades in anti-nuclear movements and protesters calling themselves "anti-war." But there is a huge difference between being anti-war in words and being anti-war in deeds.

How many times, in its thousands of years of history, has Europe gone 60 years without a major war, as it has since World War II? That peace has been due to American nuclear weapons, which was all that could deter the Soviet Union's armies from marching right across Europe to the Atlantic Ocean.

Having overwhelming military force on your side, and letting your enemies know that you have the guts to use it, is being genuinely anti-war. Chamberlain's appeasement brought on World War II and Reagan's military buildup ended the Cold War.

The famous Roman peace of ancient times did not come from negotiations, cease-fires, or pretty talk. It came from the Roman Empire's crushing defeat and annihilation of Carthage, which served as a warning to anyone else who might have had any bright ideas about messing with Rome.

Only after the Roman Empire began to lose its own internal cohesion, patriotism and fighting spirit over the centuries did it begin to succumb to its external enemies and finally collapse.

That seems to be where western civilization is heading today.

Internal cohesion? Not only does much of today's generation in western societies have a "do your own thing" attitude, defying rules and flouting authority are glorified and Balkanization through "multiculturalism" has become dogma.

Patriotism? Not only is patriotism disdained, the very basis for pride in one's country and culture is systematically undermined in our educational institutions at all levels.

The achievements of western civilization are buried in histories that portray every human sin found here as if they were peculiarities of the west.

The classic example is slavery, which existed all over the world for thousands of years and yet is incessantly depicted as if it was a peculiarity of Europeans enslaving Africans. Barbary pirates alone brought twice as many enslaved Europeans to North Africa as there were Africans brought in bondage to the United States and the American colonies from which it was formed.

How many schools and colleges are going to teach that, going against political correctness and undermining white guilt?

How many people have any inkling that it was precisely western civilization which eventually turned against slavery and began stamping it out when non-western societies still saw nothing wrong with it?

How can a generation be expected to fight for the survival of a culture or a civilization that has been trashed in its own institutions, taught to tolerate even the intolerance of other cultures brought into its own midst, and conditioned to regard any instinct to fight for its own survival as being a "cowboy"?

Western nations that show any signs of standing up for self-preservation are rare exceptions. The United States and Israel are the only western nations which have no choice but to rely on self-defense -- and both are demonized, not only by our enemies but also by many in other western nations.

Australia recently told its Muslim population that, if they want to live under Islamic law, then they should leave Australia. That makes three western nations that have not yet completely succumbed to the corrosive and suicidal trends of our times.

If and when we all succumb, will the epitaph of western civilization say that we had the power to annihilate our enemies but were so paralyzed by confusion that we ended up being annihilated ourselves?



Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy.

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/column.aspx?UrlTitle=where_is_the_west&ns=ThomasSowell&dt=11/09/2006&page=1

I concur with much of what he says. Socialization, a particular type of socialization, is essential to the preservation of any society and nation.

Having overwhelming military force on your side, and letting your enemies know that you have the guts to use it, is being genuinely anti-war. Chamberlain's appeasement brought on World War II and Reagan's military buildup ended the Cold War.

The famous Roman peace of ancient times did not come from negotiations, cease-fires, or pretty talk. It came from the Roman Empire's crushing defeat and annihilation of Carthage, which served as a warning to anyone else who might have had any bright ideas about messing with Rome.

Only after the Roman Empire began to lose its own internal cohesion, patriotism and fighting spirit over the centuries did it begin to succumb to its external enemies and finally collapse.

That seems to be where western civilization is heading today.

Internal cohesion? Not only does much of today's generation in western societies have a "do your own thing" attitude, defying rules and flouting authority are glorified and Balkanization through "multiculturalism" has become dogma.

Patriotism? Not only is patriotism disdained, the very basis for pride in one's country and culture is systematically undermined in our educational institutions at all levels.


However, I am hesitant and skeptical about the following remarks.

Western nations that show any signs of standing up for self-preservation are rare exceptions. The United States and Israel are the only western nations which have no choice but to rely on self-defense -- and both are demonized, not only by our enemies but also by many in other western nations.


Well I wonder what examples he is relying upon in making this assertion?

[Jimmy Madison]

slitedeviance wrote: TomStall wrote: As usual another brilliant essay from Dr. Sowell. The message is quite clear..................

It is the enemy within, the liberals, that are the true enemy. Ironically all the libs efforts to stop and prevent wars will only lead to a greater carnage where millions will die in hours. And the time for that is not far off.....

:rofl:

Seriously? I guess us liberals should go and top ourselves for the good of the US, and Europe should go back to it's days of Nationalism to prevent the evil from the Muslims huh?

This guy rocks, in the same way as Tenacious D (so not very much)!

It is not "liberals" which Sowell asserts as the problem but rather certain ideas, principles, and beliefs most commonly associated with "liberalism" which Sowell is denouncing in the op-ed.

Sowell wants to bring to an end the socialization which erodes, decays, and weakens the defense of a nation. This is the point of the op-ed. It has nothing to do with liberals.

[slitedeviance]

Jimmy Madison wrote: Sowell wants to bring to an end the socialization which erodes, decays, and weakens the defense of a nation. This is the point of the op-ed. It has nothing to do with liberals.

tomstall wrote: It is the enemy within, the liberals, that are the true enemy.

The Op-Ed can well be interpreted in this way, but the statement in the opening statement shows how some people have chosen to interpret the article.

[Jimmy Madison]

slitedeviance wrote: Jimmy Madison wrote: Sowell wants to bring to an end the socialization which erodes, decays, and weakens the defense of a nation. This is the point of the op-ed. It has nothing to do with liberals.

tomstall wrote: It is the enemy within, the liberals, that are the true enemy.

The Op-Ed can well be interpreted in this way, but the statement in the opening statement shows how some people have chosen to interpret the article.

You are right and unfortunately some have misinterpreted the op-ed to be against liberals and liberalism in general.

It should be unequivocally clear Sowell is denouncing specific ideas/values/attitudes commonly associated with liberalism but Sowell himself is careful to NEVER declare they are part and parcel of liberalism or liberal ideology. The article is not about liberals, liberal ideology, or liberalism but socialization which is detrimental to the adequate defense of the nation.

[bob.appleyard]

Remember, Sowell, that the great patriotic wars are a necessary illusion for maintaining social cohesion against the ravages of modernity, under the watchful eye of benevolent leaders. Remember that, or you'll fall into a common trap -- believing your own BS.