Political Crossfire Forums

[Centrist]

Timmytour wrote: Centrist wrote: Timmytour wrote: Moracca wrote: Okay, is it okay for Christians to question Christian leadership and the actions of other individual Christians and still be allowed to call themselves a Christian?

Is it okay for Americans to question the American leadership and the actions of other Americans and still be allowed to call themselves Americans?

I'll tell everyone why I asked these questions after I get a few answers. Its NOT an attack on anyone at all, so please don't think that I'm trying to bait you into anything.

Thanks everyone! :flwr:

What´s extremely worrying is that you feel the need to even ask :shock:

That´s like saying... can you be a Christian and not recognise the Pope as your leader :shock:

That´s like saying can you argue in an election that you should be elected instead of the incumbent President :shock:

This comment isn't aimed at Moracca.....

You have to consider the source. All things considered, it's a fair question for someone in her position to ask.

Not sure what you are getting at. I am aware of the circumstances, and my comments are not aimed at Moracca (apologies if the impression is the otherwise), but at the kind of world where people have to ask this sort of question.

The "kind of world" is what I take issue with, I wish it wasn´t so but am clued up enough to know that unfortunately in many cases it is.

I know you weren't aiming at Moracca. You just seemed sort of surprised that she'd feel compelled to ask the questions she asked. I, on the other hand, was not surprised at all. /shrug

[Moracca]

homerjay_s wrote: Moracca wrote: Okay, is it okay for Christians to question Christian leadership and the actions of other individual Christians and still be allowed to call themselves a Christian?

I guess that depends on what exactly makes one a "Christian". I mean, I can go around calling myself a tree, and there's not a whole lot anyone could do to stop me, but it wouldn't really be true.

Do I think questioning Christian leadership is a decidedly unchristian thing to do? Perhaps, seeing as the whole Christianity thing is based on belief without proof.

Quote: Is it okay for Americans to question the American leadership and the actions of other Americans and still be allowed to call themselves Americans?

I would say it is unAmerican NOT to question the actions of leadership.

Quote: I'll tell everyone why I asked these questions after I get a few answers. Its NOT an attack on anyone at all, so please don't think that I'm trying to bait you into anything.

Thanks everyone! :flwr:

Why do I think these questions were aimed at getting a specific answer?

Oh, a "yes" or "no" would have been okay. That's as specific as I was looking for. But someone told me about a thread about me while I was gone and I went in and checked it out. One of my old nemesis' was in there tossing his old garbage about me and my religioun/ethnicity. I just felt compelled to put into people's minds in here that just because someone is Muslim or Arab doesn't mean that they have to follow the lead of what other Muslims or Arabs do or say. I framed it in the Christian/American way so that people could better understand what I've tried to explain over and over to no avail.

I see you used the Homer thing I sent you! :wink:

[Centrist]

Moracca wrote: homerjay_s wrote: Moracca wrote: Okay, is it okay for Christians to question Christian leadership and the actions of other individual Christians and still be allowed to call themselves a Christian?

I guess that depends on what exactly makes one a "Christian". I mean, I can go around calling myself a tree, and there's not a whole lot anyone could do to stop me, but it wouldn't really be true.

Do I think questioning Christian leadership is a decidedly unchristian thing to do? Perhaps, seeing as the whole Christianity thing is based on belief without proof.

Quote: Is it okay for Americans to question the American leadership and the actions of other Americans and still be allowed to call themselves Americans?

I would say it is unAmerican NOT to question the actions of leadership.

Quote: I'll tell everyone why I asked these questions after I get a few answers. Its NOT an attack on anyone at all, so please don't think that I'm trying to bait you into anything.

Thanks everyone! :flwr:

Why do I think these questions were aimed at getting a specific answer?

Oh, a "yes" or "no" would have been okay. That's as specific as I was looking for. But someone told me about a thread about me while I was gone and I went in and checked it out. One of my old nemesis' was in there tossing his old garbage about me and my religioun/ethnicity. I just felt compelled to put into people's minds in here that just because someone is Muslim or Arab doesn't mean that they have to follow the lead of what other Muslims or Arabs do or say. I framed it in the Christian/American way so that people could better understand what I've tried to explain over and over to no avail.

I see you used the Homer thing I sent you! :wink:

Is it solely the western perception of the ME/Islam that's faulty? Or do you feel like other Arab Muslims would question your heritage and faith?

[Timmytour]

flamboyant wrote: Moracca wrote: Alright, thanks everyone!

Now, when I as a falling away Muslim question Muslim leaders or the actions of individual Muslims I can still call myself a falling away Muslim all day long.

As an ethnic Arab I can question Arab government leaders and the actions of individual Arabs.

I have been challenged a few times on my religious beliefs and ethnicity because I have had harsh words for Muslims and Arabs. Just because I am a falling away Muslim and an Arab ethnically does not mean that I have to fall in line with the opinions and actions of those Muslims and Arabs who do what I think is wrong.


Martin Luther had a few things he questioned about the ways of the Catholic Church (95 to be exact, I think) and while the division played out in an extremely contentious and bloody manner over the centuries, I don't think too many people today would argue that he wasn't a legitimate Christian.

I´m a practising catholic and still criticise the hell out of it. Some of my father´s sisters were nuns and such were the rules at time their father way lying on his deathbed that they were not allowed in the house to see him, but had to stand outside.

It feels me with anger when I think of such obedience being paid to such a rule of "man not God". Things are better but such "rules" still exist.

Then the politics comes in. I am fortunate enough to live in a society where I am free to stick with my religion or leave it. Certainly free enough to criticise it. Where that is not the case, it´s because of politics, whether of the family or the State.

Freedom is what religion ultimately is about, and what politics should be about.

[Centrist]

Centrist wrote: Is it solely the western perception of the ME/Islam that's faulty? Or do you feel like other Arab Muslims would question your heritage and faith?

I only ask because I think Timmytour and I both jumped to the same conclusion, which appears to have been erroneous.

[Timmytour]

Centrist wrote:
I know you weren't aiming at Moracca. You just seemed sort of surprised that she'd feel compelled to ask the questions she asked. I, on the other hand, was not surprised at all. /shrug

Yeah I understand what you were thinking. I wasn´t really "surprised", just kind of sad in a resigned way that the questions needed to be asked.

[flamboyant]

Timmytour wrote: flamboyant wrote: Moracca wrote: Alright, thanks everyone!

Now, when I as a falling away Muslim question Muslim leaders or the actions of individual Muslims I can still call myself a falling away Muslim all day long.

As an ethnic Arab I can question Arab government leaders and the actions of individual Arabs.

I have been challenged a few times on my religious beliefs and ethnicity because I have had harsh words for Muslims and Arabs. Just because I am a falling away Muslim and an Arab ethnically does not mean that I have to fall in line with the opinions and actions of those Muslims and Arabs who do what I think is wrong.


Martin Luther had a few things he questioned about the ways of the Catholic Church (95 to be exact, I think) and while the division played out in an extremely contentious and bloody manner over the centuries, I don't think too many people today would argue that he wasn't a legitimate Christian.

I´m a practising catholic and still criticise the hell out of it. Some of my father´s sisters were nuns and such were the rules at time their father way lying on his deathbed that they were not allowed in the house to see him, but had to stand outside.

It feels me with anger when I think of such obedience being paid to such a rule of "man not God". Things are better but such "rules" still exist.

Then the politics comes in. I am fortunate enough to live in a society where I am free to stick with my religion or leave it. Certainly free enough to criticise it. Where that is not the case, it´s because of politics, whether of the family or the State.

Freedom is what religion ultimately is about, and what politics should be about.

I can respect the fact that you have things about Church Doctrine that you disagree with, but you still go with you instinct or your heart in feeling the Catholic Church is still your best bet. It doesn't make you any less a Catholic than those who may go through life unquestioning in their devotion.

Heck the Catholic Church itself has evolved and moved over the centuries, maybe more like a glacier than anything else, but it has changed doctrine over time and that time took reformers in Popes and Bishops who were rebels themselves and had questions themselves.

[Moracca]

Centrist wrote: Is it solely the western perception of the ME/Islam that's faulty? Or do you feel like other Arab Muslims would question your heritage and faith?

Other Muslims would not question my place in the Ummah unless I converted to another religion. Of which they would still consider me a Muslim, but a misguided one. No Arab would ever question my heritage. Its impossible to change. You can't convert your ethnicity!

It just seems that in US feel that you can question Christianity or America and still be considered a Christian or American, but that if you are Muslim and question Islam you are not really a Muslim. I don't understand it.

[Moracca]

Ameriman wrote: Moracca wrote: Alright, thanks everyone!

Now, when I as a falling away Muslim question Muslim leaders or the actions of individual Muslims I can still call myself a falling away Muslim all day long.

As an ethnic Arab I can question Arab government leaders and the actions of individual Arabs.

I have been challenged a few times on my religious beliefs and ethnicity because I have had harsh words for Muslims and Arabs. Just because I am a falling away Muslim and an Arab ethnically does not mean that I have to fall in line with the opinions and actions of those Muslims and Arabs who do what I think is wrong.

Don't you know? It's politically incorrect to question Islam in any way shape or form. It's the religion of peace after all.

Don't blame me for that. I'm still trying to figure out if your trying to take a stab at me or not with your comments.

[Timmytour]

Moracca wrote: Centrist wrote: Is it solely the western perception of the ME/Islam that's faulty? Or do you feel like other Arab Muslims would question your heritage and faith?

Other Muslims would not question my place in the Ummah unless I converted to another religion. Of which they would still consider me a Muslim, but a misguided one. No Arab would ever question my heritage. Its impossible to change. You can't convert your ethnicity!

It just seems that in US feel that you can question Christianity or America and still be considered a Christian or American, but that if you are Muslim and question Islam you are not really a Muslim. I don't understand it.

:clap:

I think there also exists some confusion among some that being a Muslim automatically puts you in bed with Bin Laden.

You see some people looking for "Muslim leaders" to be more condemning as if there was absolute harmony and pure hierarchy in the Christian Church :shock:

Personally I think Christians should have more affinity with Moslems than with agnostics and athiests. After all, why should there be any "battle" about what faith people have, rather than if they have a faith?

Not that I advocate anything of the sort you understand. I think religion or non religion is a person´s freedom to choose. Perhaps a little electioneering sometimes doesn´t go amiss, but as long as it´s always within the framework of democracy :wink:

[Timmytour]

flamboyant wrote: Timmytour wrote: flamboyant wrote: Moracca wrote: Alright, thanks everyone!

Now, when I as a falling away Muslim question Muslim leaders or the actions of individual Muslims I can still call myself a falling away Muslim all day long.

As an ethnic Arab I can question Arab government leaders and the actions of individual Arabs.

I have been challenged a few times on my religious beliefs and ethnicity because I have had harsh words for Muslims and Arabs. Just because I am a falling away Muslim and an Arab ethnically does not mean that I have to fall in line with the opinions and actions of those Muslims and Arabs who do what I think is wrong.


Martin Luther had a few things he questioned about the ways of the Catholic Church (95 to be exact, I think) and while the division played out in an extremely contentious and bloody manner over the centuries, I don't think too many people today would argue that he wasn't a legitimate Christian.

I´m a practising catholic and still criticise the hell out of it. Some of my father´s sisters were nuns and such were the rules at time their father way lying on his deathbed that they were not allowed in the house to see him, but had to stand outside.

It feels me with anger when I think of such obedience being paid to such a rule of "man not God". Things are better but such "rules" still exist.

Then the politics comes in. I am fortunate enough to live in a society where I am free to stick with my religion or leave it. Certainly free enough to criticise it. Where that is not the case, it´s because of politics, whether of the family or the State.

Freedom is what religion ultimately is about, and what politics should be about.

I can respect the fact that you have things about Church Doctrine that you disagree with, but you still go with you instinct or your heart in feeling the Catholic Church is still your best bet. It doesn't make you any less a Catholic than those who may go through life unquestioning in their devotion.

Heck the Catholic Church itself has evolved and moved over the centuries, maybe more like a glacier than anything else, but it has changed doctrine over time and that time took reformers in Popes and Bishops who were rebels themselves and had questions themselves.

I can´t disagree. The Catholic Church is still an institution I choose to get my guidance from, but ultimately what a person believes are the right or wrong things to do are to be found within their own heart.

[Centrist]

Timmytour wrote: Moracca wrote: Centrist wrote: Is it solely the western perception of the ME/Islam that's faulty? Or do you feel like other Arab Muslims would question your heritage and faith?

Other Muslims would not question my place in the Ummah unless I converted to another religion. Of which they would still consider me a Muslim, but a misguided one. No Arab would ever question my heritage. Its impossible to change. You can't convert your ethnicity!

It just seems that in US feel that you can question Christianity or America and still be considered a Christian or American, but that if you are Muslim and question Islam you are not really a Muslim. I don't understand it.

:clap:

I think there also exists some confusion among some that being a Muslim automatically puts you in bed with Bin Laden.

You see some people looking for "Muslim leaders" to be more condemning as if there was absolute harmony and pure hierarchy in the Christian Church :shock:

Personally I think Christians should have more affinity with Moslems than with agnostics and athiests. After all, why should there be any "battle" about what faith people have, rather than if they have a faith?

Not that I advocate anything of the sort you understand. I think religion or non religion is a person´s freedom to choose. Perhaps a little electioneering sometimes doesn´t go amiss, but as long as it´s always within the framework of democracy :wink:

I admit, I tend to look for Muslim leaders to be more condemning. But they're leaders, and supposedly they're leaders for a reason. Individual Muslims I deal with on an individual level. The reason I look for Muslim leaders to be more condemning is that if they were, it might show some of the less understanding people on our side of the issue that the claim that a majority of Muslims do not support people like bin Laden is accurate. In this case, fairly or not, silence is tacit support.

*Edit: let me put that another way. Silence is ambiguous, and ambiguity when it comes to our issues with the Muslim world speaks as loud or louder than any words.

[Moracca]

Timmytour wrote: Moracca wrote: Centrist wrote: Is it solely the western perception of the ME/Islam that's faulty? Or do you feel like other Arab Muslims would question your heritage and faith?

Other Muslims would not question my place in the Ummah unless I converted to another religion. Of which they would still consider me a Muslim, but a misguided one. No Arab would ever question my heritage. Its impossible to change. You can't convert your ethnicity!

It just seems that in US feel that you can question Christianity or America and still be considered a Christian or American, but that if you are Muslim and question Islam you are not really a Muslim. I don't understand it.

:clap:

I think there also exists some confusion among some that being a Muslim automatically puts you in bed with Bin Laden.

You see some people looking for "Muslim leaders" to be more condemning as if there was absolute harmony and pure hierarchy in the Christian Church :shock:

Personally I think Christians should have more affinity with Moslems than with agnostics and athiests. After all, why should there be any "battle" about what faith people have, rather than if they have a faith?

Not that I advocate anything of the sort you understand. I think religion or non religion is a person´s freedom to choose. Perhaps a little electioneering sometimes doesn´t go amiss, but as long as it´s always within the framework of democracy :wink:

The problem is that in Sunni Islam it is specifically set up so that there is no high power or specific "leaders". In Shia it is different, much different. In Sunni Islam it is expected that prospective clerics attend religious training at approved ancient schools before having the ability to issue fatwahs. The problem is that the Salafists like Osama reject this and issue fatwahs on their own to their followers and the Ummah in general. In the eyes of most Muslims Osama is not authorized to issue a fatwah because he has not attended the proper religious training. However, with the increase of the instant media, the fact that the Salafists control the Hajj and also that the Saudi royals donate massive amounts of money to Salafist charities....the Salafists' power and influence is enormous. Most Sunni mosques in the US were build with funding from Salafist charities. Same goes for Europe. Anyway....no matter what we do outside of using the Salafists' religious views against them in battle or cutting off their funding....Salafism will grow and grow and grow. They are not like the West, they have many children.

[agentkgb]

Yes, why not? Everyone disagrees with something.

[Dookiestix]

While I by no means condemn religion, I think it s*cks that there are plenty of those out there who allow their faith to completely dictate their lives without question, and those who either question their faith or question those who bastardize that faith into a violent movement are shunned, condemned, demonized, and in some cases, murdered. It is healthy to have objectivity in ones life, and to be able to see beyond the pure faith and look upon humanity as a whole. The divisive elements of religion throughout history are riddled with the deaths of millions upon millions of human beings.

I, for one, will condemn anyone who uses religion for violent and/or political purposes. They are only contributing to the destruction of that faith, as well as our faith in our collective humanity.

Centrist wrote: I admit, I tend to look for Muslim leaders to be more condemning. But they're leaders, and supposedly they're leaders for a reason. Individual Muslims I deal with on an individual level. The reason I look for Muslim leaders to be more condemning is that if they were, it might show some of the less understanding people on our side of the issue that the claim that a majority of Muslims do not support people like bin Laden is accurate. In this case, fairly or not, silence is tacit support.

*Edit: let me put that another way. Silence is ambiguous, and ambiguity when it comes to our issues with the Muslim world speaks as loud or louder than any words.
I couldn't agree with you more. It is the lack of outrage in the Muslim world which seems to be rather clear here. I believe that it probably has something to do with American imperialism and our occupation in Iraq. If only we could have capitalized on the goodwill from the world after 9/11, we might be in a different place today. Certainly, we wouldn't be in Iraq if we had more of the Arab world on our side, especially in dealing with Saddam. But Bush blew it by lying us into his corporate war for the oil, and the Arab world knows this. And just like that <poof>!. All that goodwill has been replaced by more hatred towards the U.S. than ever before.

[Medius]

Moracca wrote: homerjay_s wrote: Moracca wrote: Okay, is it okay for Christians to question Christian leadership and the actions of other individual Christians and still be allowed to call themselves a Christian?

I guess that depends on what exactly makes one a "Christian". I mean, I can go around calling myself a tree, and there's not a whole lot anyone could do to stop me, but it wouldn't really be true.

Do I think questioning Christian leadership is a decidedly unchristian thing to do? Perhaps, seeing as the whole Christianity thing is based on belief without proof.

Quote: Is it okay for Americans to question the American leadership and the actions of other Americans and still be allowed to call themselves Americans?

I would say it is unAmerican NOT to question the actions of leadership.

Quote: I'll tell everyone why I asked these questions after I get a few answers. Its NOT an attack on anyone at all, so please don't think that I'm trying to bait you into anything.

Thanks everyone! :flwr:

Why do I think these questions were aimed at getting a specific answer?

Oh, a "yes" or "no" would have been okay. That's as specific as I was looking for. But someone told me about a thread about me while I was gone and I went in and checked it out. One of my old nemesis' was in there tossing his old garbage about me and my religioun/ethnicity. I just felt compelled to put into people's minds in here that just because someone is Muslim or Arab doesn't mean that they have to follow the lead of what other Muslims or Arabs do or say. I framed it in the Christian/American way so that people could better understand what I've tried to explain over and over to no avail.

I see you used the Homer thing I sent you! :wink:

I'm sorry to hear about the misrepresentation of your personal faith. While I tend not to agree with you on many issues, I never thought your religion or ethnicity to have any bearing on the debates.

I personally respect your decision to seperate your faith from those political and social beliefs with which you disagree.

[Ellron]

Moracca wrote: Okay, is it okay for Christians to question Christian leadership and the actions of other individual Christians and still be allowed to call themselves a Christian?

Is it okay for Americans to question the American leadership and the actions of other Americans and still be allowed to call themselves Americans?

I'll tell everyone why I asked these questions after I get a few answers. Its NOT an attack on anyone at all, so please don't think that I'm trying to bait you into anything.

Thanks everyone! :flwr:

Hey Sexy!!!

Come on. Try and kick me in the balls from the internet...Come on i dare you.

I say yes to your question.

[Timmytour]

Moracca wrote: Timmytour wrote: Moracca wrote: Centrist wrote: Is it solely the western perception of the ME/Islam that's faulty? Or do you feel like other Arab Muslims would question your heritage and faith?

Other Muslims would not question my place in the Ummah unless I converted to another religion. Of which they would still consider me a Muslim, but a misguided one. No Arab would ever question my heritage. Its impossible to change. You can't convert your ethnicity!

It just seems that in US feel that you can question Christianity or America and still be considered a Christian or American, but that if you are Muslim and question Islam you are not really a Muslim. I don't understand it.

:clap:

I think there also exists some confusion among some that being a Muslim automatically puts you in bed with Bin Laden.

You see some people looking for "Muslim leaders" to be more condemning as if there was absolute harmony and pure hierarchy in the Christian Church :shock:

Personally I think Christians should have more affinity with Moslems than with agnostics and athiests. After all, why should there be any "battle" about what faith people have, rather than if they have a faith?

Not that I advocate anything of the sort you understand. I think religion or non religion is a person´s freedom to choose. Perhaps a little electioneering sometimes doesn´t go amiss, but as long as it´s always within the framework of democracy :wink:

The problem is that in Sunni Islam it is specifically set up so that there is no high power or specific "leaders". In Shia it is different, much different. In Sunni Islam it is expected that prospective clerics attend religious training at approved ancient schools before having the ability to issue fatwahs. The problem is that the Salafists like Osama reject this and issue fatwahs on their own to their followers and the Ummah in general. In the eyes of most Muslims Osama is not authorized to issue a fatwah because he has not attended the proper religious training. However, with the increase of the instant media, the fact that the Salafists control the Hajj and also that the Saudi royals donate massive amounts of money to Salafist charities....the Salafists' power and influence is enormous. Most Sunni mosques in the US were build with funding from Salafist charities. Same goes for Europe. Anyway....no matter what we do outside of using the Salafists' religious views against them in battle or cutting off their funding....Salafism will grow and grow and grow. They are not like the West, they have many children.

I´ve always thought that the religion of Islam shied away from the kind of hierarchical nature of many Western organisations and thus thought it was a bit strange of people to ask the "muslim leaders" to stand up and be counted. In the Christian Church there is of course the Pope, Archbishops of various faiths and of course the blesssed Pat Robertson :lol: to whom the media know who to approach for comments. That kind of person to my mind doesn´t exist in the Islamic Faith, so to my mind people confuse the fact that they are not reading about "religious leaders" coming out against it with the fact they must condone it, not with the reality that the media has got no one to approach on the same basis!

I appreciate what you have posted. It is educational for the likes of me.

Perhaps I am wrong , but I sense in you a same frustration I have myself. That being that if Johnny Rotten got up, pronounced himself an archbishop and said because Jesus said we should love one another, it was the duty of every Christian to make love with every single person they met, whether of the same or opposite sex, you can imagine how much "respect" as a religious item that would gain.

To me, it doesn´t appear that Bin Laden´s done too much different. Yet I read so many posts that convey him to nevertheless have a religious authority within the Islamic faith.

[Charlie Man]

Huh, so Osama is a baptist.

...

Please, nobody baptist fly a plane into my house for saying that.

[private_citizen]

Moracca wrote: Okay, is it okay for Christians to question Christian leadership and the actions of other individual Christians and still be allowed to call themselves a Christian?

Jesus did just that... questioned the church leaders. At the time it made him a martyr to some, and a heretic to others. But which label prevailed?

Quote: Is it okay for Americans to question the American leadership and the actions of other Americans and still be allowed to call themselves Americans?

The founding fathers did the same thing, rose up and fought for what they believed in... HOWEVER, they had a foundation for it, not just the fact they did not like the way the laws were, it was the fact they had no rights to change laws.. (you know that whole no taxation/representation thing)

they also did the whole north/south thing... but there lies the question.. are you just going to complain, are you willing to die for your convictions?...OR, is it just malcontent in leadership? Just not getting your way?

just my .02 cents