Political Crossfire Forums

Swampfox.f · Joined: 08 Nov 2006 Posts: 248

Quote: FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (AP) -- One of four U.S. soldiers accused of raping an Iraqi girl last spring and killing her and her family pleaded guilty Wednesday and will testify against the others.

Spc. James P. Barker agreed to the plea deal to avoid the death penalty, said his civilian attorney, David Sheldon.

The killings in Mahmoudiya, a village about 20 miles south of Baghdad, were among the worst in a series of alleged attacks on civilians and other abuses by military personnel in Iraq.

Sgt. Paul E. Cortez and Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman, both members of the 101st Airborne Division with Barker, could face the death penalty if convicted in the case in courts-martial at Fort Campbell.

Former Army private Steve Green, 21, pleaded not guilty last week to charges including murder and sexual assault.

Green was discharged from the Army for a "personality disorder" before the allegations became known, and prosecutors have yet to say if they will pursue the death penalty against him.

The indictment accuses Green and others of raping the 14-year-old girl and burning her body to conceal their crimes. It also alleges that Green and four others stationed at a nearby checkpoint killed the girl's father, mother and 6-year-old sister.

Barker has given investigators vivid accounts of the assault. An investigator testified during a hearing in August that Barker had said the soldiers drank whiskey and played cards while plotting the assault, that Barker, Cortez and Green took turns raping the girl, and that Green shot her and her family.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/15/iraq.slaying.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

From what I understand this generaly happens in every war since Vietnam. In Vietnam it was a huge problem from my understanding.

I don't know how I feel about this as it certainly is a grotesque act; but one under duress none the less. War is hell, and soldiers responding in tune shouldn't be shocking even though the crime is.

My question is why are the individual soldiers singled out when missle batteries and bombings kill hundred of thousands of innocent lives?

They call it murder but what is it that we are really doing in there in the first place? What of the hundred of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed? Who is their murderer? Why are we calling this murder when we are flippant about the rest of the murders?

Richard Owl Mirror · Joined: 28 May 2006 Posts: 9002

Does this mean Jack Murtha can expect an apology from all those calling him a traitor when he made this known to the public?

As for Vietnam, does this mean John Kerry was right when he gave testimony to Congress and reported these types of atrocities were prevalent in Vietnam?

Swampfox.f · Joined: 08 Nov 2006 Posts: 248

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Does this mean Jack Murtha can expect an apology from all those calling him a traitor when he made this known to the public?

As for Vietnam, does this mean John Kerry was right when he gave testimony to Congress and reported these types of atrocities were prevalent in Vietnam?

Do you have a link to these?

Richard Owl Mirror · Joined: 28 May 2006 Posts: 9002

Swampfox.f wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Does this mean Jack Murtha can expect an apology from all those calling him a traitor when he made this known to the public?

As for Vietnam, does this mean John Kerry was right when he gave testimony to Congress and reported these types of atrocities were prevalent in Vietnam?

Do you have a link to these?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1198892,00.html

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/30/murtha-haditha/

text of John F. Kerry's testimony before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations on April 22, 1971

I didn't find a link where Murtha made any comment on this particular RAPE & MURDER, only the OTHER Murders committed by Marines in Haditha.
If I wanted to spend more time on this, I'm certain I could find the link.

Swampfox.f · Joined: 08 Nov 2006 Posts: 248

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Swampfox.f wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Does this mean Jack Murtha can expect an apology from all those calling him a traitor when he made this known to the public?

As for Vietnam, does this mean John Kerry was right when he gave testimony to Congress and reported these types of atrocities were prevalent in Vietnam?

Do you have a link to these?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12838343/

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,1198892,00.html

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/30/murtha-haditha/

text of John F. Kerry's testimony before the Senate Committee on Foreign Relations on April 22, 1971

I didn't find a link where Murtha made any comment on this particular RAPE & MURDER, only the OTHER Murders committed by Marines in Haditha.
If I wanted to spend more time on this, I'm certain I could find the link.

Interesting, but the question I posed is why single out certain members of the military force when mass murder is a common theme in wars?

Personaly if you single out these soldiers why doesn't Bush and his fellow PNAC'ers face the same charges for the hundred of thousands of killed innocent Iraqis?

[Bible]Monkey · Joined: 03 Jul 2004 Posts: 6675 Location: Alberta

Swampfox.f wrote: Personaly if you single out these soldiers why doesn't Bush and his fellow PNAC'ers face the same charges for the hundred of thousands of killed innocent Iraqis?

I haven't clicked on any of the links in this thread, but I think that you know the answer to that question-the answer being that 99.99999999999999% of the military do not commit crimes.

The ones that were "singled out " as you put it, were "singled out" for the same reason that any criminal could be said to be "singled out"-they were the ones that broke the law. That's probably why they have this little rule book
http://www.constitution.org/mil/ucmj19970615.htm#X

Looks like murder and rape are against the rules. Have a look in there-they even have a number for what those boys done. That's good, the system works, you do a crime like that, you're charged, and people in the public-like you-can talk about it all you want, out in the open. Sounds like a good system to me.

What number is the crime you're saying those politicians did ?

Snake · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 6:41 pm Post subject:

Charging a soldier with murder during a war is like giving a student detention for getting wet during a field trip to sea world.

Dookiestix · Posted: Wed Nov 15, 2006 7:14 pm Post subject:

Kim Jong Ill wrote: Charging a soldier with murder during a war is like giving a student detention for getting wet during a field trip to sea world.
So you see nothing wrong with falsely charging into an innocent Iraqi's household, raping their daughter, and then killing everybody in cold blood in a non-combat situation.

Wow. I'm sure that family would have probably preferred to getting drenched at Sea World. Too bad they won't have that opportunit now. :roll:

ilovebushnotdick · Joined: 24 Oct 2006 Posts: 265

Swampfox.f wrote: Soldier pleads guilty in Iraq killings
you have to understand how US formed Iraqi military: by freeing people from Saddams jails. that is how you gain most loyal army to occupiers, because prisoners of the country are guaranteed to hate their leader (Saddam)... these prisoners are people such as murderers and other criminals.

Trajan · Joined: 16 Jul 2005 Posts: 6584 Location: SE PA

ilovebushnotdick wrote: Swampfox.f wrote: Soldier pleads guilty in Iraq killings
you have to understand how US formed Iraqi military: by freeing people from Saddams jails. that is how you gain most loyal army to occupiers, because prisoners of the country are guaranteed to hate their leader (Saddam)... these prisoners are people such as murderers and other criminals.

And this relates to the fact a US soldier has been found guilty how?

And how does it relate to the following: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061116/ap_on_re_us/marines_iraq_shooting

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. - A Marine private who pleaded guilty to reduced charges in the killing of an innocent Iraqi civilian was sentenced Wednesday to 18 months in custody. "You have a very fortuitous pretrial agreement," the judge, Lt. Col. David Jones, told Pfc. John J. Jodka III.

Snake · Posted: Thu Nov 16, 2006 4:57 am Post subject:

Dookiestix wrote: So you see nothing wrong with falsely charging into an innocent Iraqi's household, raping their daughter, and then killing everybody in cold blood in a non-combat situation. Of course I do. But soldiers are trained to kill, that's their purpose, it's what they do. Some take it too far.

Black Sheep 5 · Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 1776 Location: Phoenix

Swampfox.f wrote: Quote: FORT CAMPBELL, Kentucky (AP) -- One of four U.S. soldiers accused of raping an Iraqi girl last spring and killing her and her family pleaded guilty Wednesday and will testify against the others.

Spc. James P. Barker agreed to the plea deal to avoid the death penalty, said his civilian attorney, David Sheldon.

The killings in Mahmoudiya, a village about 20 miles south of Baghdad, were among the worst in a series of alleged attacks on civilians and other abuses by military personnel in Iraq.

Sgt. Paul E. Cortez and Pfc. Jesse V. Spielman, both members of the 101st Airborne Division with Barker, could face the death penalty if convicted in the case in courts-martial at Fort Campbell.

Former Army private Steve Green, 21, pleaded not guilty last week to charges including murder and sexual assault.

Green was discharged from the Army for a "personality disorder" before the allegations became known, and prosecutors have yet to say if they will pursue the death penalty against him.

The indictment accuses Green and others of raping the 14-year-old girl and burning her body to conceal their crimes. It also alleges that Green and four others stationed at a nearby checkpoint killed the girl's father, mother and 6-year-old sister.

Barker has given investigators vivid accounts of the assault. An investigator testified during a hearing in August that Barker had said the soldiers drank whiskey and played cards while plotting the assault, that Barker, Cortez and Green took turns raping the girl, and that Green shot her and her family.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/15/iraq.slaying.ap/index.html?eref=rss_topstories

From what I understand this generaly happens in every war since Vietnam. In Vietnam it was a huge problem from my understanding.

I don't know how I feel about this as it certainly is a grotesque act; but one under duress none the less. War is hell, and soldiers responding in tune shouldn't be shocking even though the crime is.

My question is why are the individual soldiers singled out when missle batteries and bombings kill hundred of thousands of innocent lives?

They call it murder but what is it that we are really doing in there in the first place? What of the hundred of thousands of innocent Iraqis killed? Who is their murderer? Why are we calling this murder when we are flippant about the rest of the murders? When a pilot drops a laser guided bomb and misses it was an accident. It wasnt his intention to kill civilians. When a foot soldier murders people with an M-4 it is itentional and he should be hanged.

Black Sheep 5 · Joined: 08 Oct 2005 Posts: 1776 Location: Phoenix

Dookiestix wrote: Kim Jong Ill wrote: Charging a soldier with murder during a war is like giving a student detention for getting wet during a field trip to sea world.
So you see nothing wrong with falsely charging into an innocent Iraqi's household, raping their daughter, and then killing everybody in cold blood in a non-combat situation.

Wow. I'm sure that family would have probably preferred to getting drenched at Sea World. Too bad they won't have that opportunit now. :roll: Soldiers are trained to kill, however, they are trained to identify targets before pulling the trigger. Your right in saying that these soldiers are the worse kind of scum and no better than your average murderer. RAPE NEVER HAS AN EXCUSE. A murder could be confused with misidentification of target only the trigger puller will ever know.

Kilo Tango · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 9388 Location: D.C.

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Does this mean Jack Murtha can expect an apology from all those calling him a traitor when he made this known to the public?

As for Vietnam, does this mean John Kerry was right when he gave testimony to Congress and reported these types of atrocities were prevalent in Vietnam? Murtha wasn't talking about this incident. Get your facts straight. Murtha is just a piece of sh*t. He's too senile to be a traitor.

What the hell does any of this have to do with Kerry and Vietnam? :roll:

indieinmich · Joined: 18 Oct 2006 Posts: 539 Location: michigan

Kim Jong Ill wrote: Charging a soldier with murder during a war is like giving a student detention for getting wet during a field trip to sea world.

There is clearly a difference between Rape and murder and doing the job of a soldier. A soldier must kill those who wish him, his comrades,or civilians harm and or death.I dont see how Rape enters into War at all. I m not saying the family was Innocent I dont know.But clearly the soldiers arent.One has already plead guilty.

Proton · Joined: 12 Jul 2004 Posts: 1777 Location: Evil European

I would put him into a federal prison and announce to everyone his crime in the speakers.

Pedophile murderer.

Swampfox.f · Joined: 08 Nov 2006 Posts: 248

Kim Jong Ill wrote: Charging a soldier with murder during a war is like giving a student detention for getting wet during a field trip to sea world.

I agree.

Swampfox.f · Joined: 08 Nov 2006 Posts: 248

Black Sheep 5 wrote: When a pilot drops a laser guided bomb and misses it was an accident. It wasnt his intention to kill civilians. When a foot soldier murders people with an M-4 it is itentional and he should be hanged.

Even when they know civilians are in the area? How about the video that was circulated of a bomb being dropped on a bunch of civilians in the street?

So if you accidentaly murder someone that makes it ok?

Kilo Tango · Joined: 12 Apr 2006 Posts: 9388 Location: D.C.

Swampfox.f wrote: Black Sheep 5 wrote: When a pilot drops a laser guided bomb and misses it was an accident. It wasnt his intention to kill civilians. When a foot soldier murders people with an M-4 it is itentional and he should be hanged.

Even when they know civilians are in the area? How about the video that was circulated of a bomb being dropped on a bunch of civilians in the street?

So if you accidentaly murder someone that makes it ok? You mean the video that showed a bomb landing a bullseye on a group of terrorists. 8:) That was a great shot man.

Swampfox.f · Joined: 08 Nov 2006 Posts: 248

Kilo Tango wrote: Swampfox.f wrote: Black Sheep 5 wrote: When a pilot drops a laser guided bomb and misses it was an accident. It wasnt his intention to kill civilians. When a foot soldier murders people with an M-4 it is itentional and he should be hanged.

Even when they know civilians are in the area? How about the video that was circulated of a bomb being dropped on a bunch of civilians in the street?

So if you accidentaly murder someone that makes it ok? You mean the video that showed a bomb landing a bullseye on a group of terrorists. 8:) That was a great shot man.

Why not just label the people these soldiers killed as terrorist? Then it isn't murder right?