Political Crossfire Forums

[US Retard]

A little less than half of Israeli settlements are built on private Palestinian land.

DemocracyNow.org on Nov. 21, 2006 wrote: Study: 40% of Israeli Settlements Built on Private Palestinian Land
Meanwhile, a new study from the Israeli group Peace Now says nearly forty percent of Israeli settlements in the West Bank are built on privately-owned Palestinian land. Israel’s largest settlement -- Ma’ale Adumim -- is built on eighty-five percent private land. Peace Now says the data was leaked by an Israeli official who wanted to expose violations of Palestinian property rights.
Similar data was leaked less than one month ago.

DemocracyNow.org on Oct. 24, 2006 wrote: Israeli Military Hides Report Confirming Expanded Settlements
The Israeli newspaper Haaretz is reporting that the Israeli military is withholding the release of a secret study that confirms there has been rampant illegal new construction in dozens of Jewish settlements in the West Bank. Some of the expanded settlements has occurred on privately owned Palestinian land. Security sources familiar with the study described the study as "political and diplomatic dynamite." Sources in the Israeli military said the report is not being made public in order to avoid a crisis with the U.S. government.
Haaretz.com on Oct. 24, 2006 wrote: Settlements grow on Arab land, despite promises made to U.S.

A secret, two year investigation by the defense establishment shows that there has been rampant illegal construction in dozens of settlements and in many cases involving privately owned Palestinian properties.
I'd guess that Israel first cleared the Palestinian land with American bulldozers similar to the ones that crushed US citizen Rachel Corrie. Here's how it happens.

Human Rights Watch in October 2004 wrote: Over the past four years, the Israeli military has demolished over 2,500 Palestinian houses in the occupied Gaza Strip.3 Nearly two-thirds of these homes were in Rafah, a densely populated refugee camp and city at the southern end of the Gaza Strip on the border with Egypt. Sixteen thousand people — more than ten percent of Rafah’s population — have lost their homes, most of them refugees, many of whom were dispossessed for a second or third time.4

As satellite images in this report show, most of the destruction in Rafah occurred along the Israeli-controlled border between the Gaza Strip and Egypt. During regular nighttime raids and with little or no warning, Israeli forces used armored Caterpillar D9 bulldozers to raze blocks of homes at the edge of the camp, incrementally expanding a “buffer zone” that is currently up to three hundred meters wide. The pattern of destruction strongly suggests that Israeli forces demolished homes wholesale, regardless of whether they posed a specific threat, in violation of international law. In most of the cases Human Rights Watch found the destruction was carried out in the absence of military necessity.
War crimes?

BBC News on 31 July 2003 wrote: Article 147 of the Fourth Geneva Convention defines war crimes as...extensive destruction and appropriation of property, not justified by military necessity and carried out unlawfully and wantonly."
The US should stop supporting the war criminal state that destroys Palestinian homes "in the absence of military necessity", steals the land from the then homeless Palestinians, and then colonizes the stolen land. In fact, a large majority of Americans, 70.4%, believe the US should "not take either side" in the Israel-Palestine conflict.

[Timmytour]

If Palestine was Cuba there'd be hell to pay!

[Bonobo]

It's a shame to resource and present such a good post when any pro Israeli debater will simply ignore it and reply to the 'Israel is evil' thread spamming there is no evidence etc..

[thefranzkafkafront]

Most nations in the world, certainly the major ones were built and grew into there current incarnations using a near identical often far far more ruthless mechanism.

[superskippy]

Do you have information on how much was purchased private property? There is little if any public land available to us thus we always go to the individual Palestinians to purchase land.

[Bonobo]

superskippy wrote: Do you have information on how much was purchased private property? There is little if any public land available to us thus we always go to the individual Palestinians to purchase land.

I believe the Israeli researchers calling it 'illegal building' pretty much answers that question.

[Bonobo]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Most nations in the world, certainly the major ones were built and grew into there current incarnations using a near identical often far far more ruthless mechanism.

You sound like American's I've argued with using Englands history a century or two ago to validate actions today.

I'm fully aware people were evil centuries ago. I couldn't care less. I don't want it to happen now.

[superskippy]

Illegal building is anything being built, they arent supposed to be expanding the settlements at all at the moment except if it's authorized. What I want to know is how much of it was bought land, do you have any information on that?

[thefranzkafkafront]

Bonobo wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Most nations in the world, certainly the major ones were built and grew into there current incarnations using a near identical often far far more ruthless mechanism.

You sound like American's I've argued with using Englands history a century or two ago to validate actions today.

I'm fully aware people were evil centuries ago. I couldn't care less. I don't want it to happen now.

Of course its not justification, but the simple fact of the matter is, if your ethnically anglo-saxon or germanic (amugst dozens of other ethic groups) chances are you and your nation is built upon stolen land.

Im trying to put a objective perspective on the matter. Simply sitting here and going 'oh what a tragedy' is in part hypocritical.

[Bonobo]

No exact figures from the website and it's incredibly hard to find date on the internet as it's not really considered important news, however some quotes from the Israeli haaretz.com:

Haaretz.com wrote: The data also shows that in many cases the construction was carried out on private Palestinian land. In the masterplans, more often than not, Palestinian properties were included in the construction planned for the future. These included Palestinian properties to which the state had promised access.

Haaretz.com wrote: However, exploiting the intifada and arguing that the settlers should not be exposed to security risks, Palestinian farmers were prevented access to their properties that were annexed by Israeli settlements.

Again, while no exact figures are available, the tone here suggests that simply taking the land and preventing access to the Palistinians was the norm.

[Bonobo]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Bonobo wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Most nations in the world, certainly the major ones were built and grew into there current incarnations using a near identical often far far more ruthless mechanism.

You sound like American's I've argued with using Englands history a century or two ago to validate actions today.

I'm fully aware people were evil centuries ago. I couldn't care less. I don't want it to happen now.

Of course its not justification, but the simple fact of the matter is, if your ethnically anglo-saxon or germanic (amugst dozens of other ethic groups) chances are you and your nation is built upon stolen land.

Im trying to put a objective perspective on the matter. Simply sitting here and going 'oh what a tragedy' is in part hypocritical.


Not in the slightest. I'm sorry that people from my homeland were bad a few years ago, but that in no way bears any weight on me, and doesn't impede my ability to comment on morals. Are you relly suggesting that we shouldn't try to stop poor people being oppressed because it happened in the past? How exactly is it hypocritical? Whose land have I invaded and stolen exactly?

[thefranzkafkafront]

Bonobo wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Bonobo wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Most nations in the world, certainly the major ones were built and grew into there current incarnations using a near identical often far far more ruthless mechanism.

You sound like American's I've argued with using Englands history a century or two ago to validate actions today.

I'm fully aware people were evil centuries ago. I couldn't care less. I don't want it to happen now.

Of course its not justification, but the simple fact of the matter is, if your ethnically anglo-saxon or germanic (amugst dozens of other ethic groups) chances are you and your nation is built upon stolen land.

Im trying to put a objective perspective on the matter. Simply sitting here and going 'oh what a tragedy' is in part hypocritical.


Not in the slightest. I'm sorry that people from my homeland were bad a few years ago, but that in no way bears any weight on me, and doesn't impede my ability to comment on morals. Are you relly suggesting that we shouldn't try to stop poor people being oppressed because it happened in the past? How exactly is it hypocritical? Whose land have I invaded and stolen exactly?

Ok let me issultrate, many people would argue that is a israeli family 'A' moved onto palestinian land 'b' and lived there for 50 years and the orginal settelers died and left it to their children, that this land would still be stolen.

Now is the diffrence between 50 and 500 (or whatever number you can imagine) not simply arbitary.

[Kilo Tango]

Israel should just give the palestinians a few casinos. :-D

[superskippy]

[quote="Bonobo"]No exact figures from the website and it's incredibly hard to find date on the internet as it's not really considered important news, however some quotes from the Israeli haaretz.com:

Haaretz.com wrote: The data also shows that in many cases the construction was carried out on private Palestinian land. In the masterplans, more often than not, Palestinian properties were included in the construction planned for the future. These included Palestinian properties to which the state had promised access.

Haaretz.com wrote: However, exploiting the intifada and arguing that the settlers should not be exposed to security risks, Palestinian farmers were prevented access to their properties that were annexed by Israeli settlements.

I wish I had actual figures but it seems to be implied that it was illegally seized land doesnt it?

Of course in those cases I would have to condemn it, it's breaking a near universal law. Not to mention my belief in the stupidity of expanding our presence in the West Bank. While I beleive we shouldnt withdraw yet, I think it is insane to expand deeper into the West Bank. After all we arent going to keep all of that, and we cannot possibly hope to pacify that Arab population nor would we want to, and with more tendrals of settlements we create a harder atmosphere to withdraw from due to the spread out nature of the settlements.

But I firmly beleive that we should remain there, they serve as vital bulwarks and outposts against Palestinian attacks and are a major negotiating tool for any peace deal. Also the Palestinians have given us no reason to withdraw and have only ever proved how useful they are at preventing attacks as well as local pacification.

[Bonobo]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Bonobo wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Bonobo wrote: thefranzkafkafront wrote: Most nations in the world, certainly the major ones were built and grew into there current incarnations using a near identical often far far more ruthless mechanism.

You sound like American's I've argued with using Englands history a century or two ago to validate actions today.

I'm fully aware people were evil centuries ago. I couldn't care less. I don't want it to happen now.

Of course its not justification, but the simple fact of the matter is, if your ethnically anglo-saxon or germanic (amugst dozens of other ethic groups) chances are you and your nation is built upon stolen land.

Im trying to put a objective perspective on the matter. Simply sitting here and going 'oh what a tragedy' is in part hypocritical.


Not in the slightest. I'm sorry that people from my homeland were bad a few years ago, but that in no way bears any weight on me, and doesn't impede my ability to comment on morals. Are you relly suggesting that we shouldn't try to stop poor people being oppressed because it happened in the past? How exactly is it hypocritical? Whose land have I invaded and stolen exactly?

Ok let me issultrate, many people would argue that is a israeli family 'A' moved onto palestinian land 'b' and lived there for 50 years and the orginal settelers died and left it to their children, that this land would still be stolen.

Now is the diffrence between 50 and 500 (or whatever number you can imagine) not simply arbitary.

The difference is that one is happening as we speak. I am not here to debate the philosophy of history - I'm pretty confident that you're fully aware of the differnece between Israel committing these actions as we speak and actions committed by our forefathers.

[Bonobo]

superskippy wrote:
Of course in those cases I would have to condemn it, it's breaking a near universal law. Not to mention my belief in the stupidity of expanding our presence in the West Bank. While I beleive we shouldnt withdraw yet, I think it is insane to expand deeper into the West Bank. After all we arent going to keep all of that, and we cannot possibly hope to pacify that Arab population nor would we want to, and with more tendrals of settlements we create a harder atmosphere to withdraw from due to the spread out nature of the settlements.

But I firmly beleive that we should remain there, they serve as vital bulwarks and outposts against Palestinian attacks and are a major negotiating tool for any peace deal. Also the Palestinians have given us no reason to withdraw and have only ever proved how useful they are at preventing attacks as well as local pacification.

So you will simply 'condemn' your country and government intentionally breaking the law and provking Palistinians for no apparent reason when plenty of land is available elsewhere, and ignore it and go on saying 'But some Palistinian terrorists are evil so it doesn't matter if we act evil too and provoke them and eliminate any chance of peace'

[US Retard]

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Of course its not justification, but the simple fact of the matter is, if your ethnically anglo-saxon or germanic (amugst dozens of other ethic groups) chances are you and your nation is built upon stolen land.
Agreed. We should paying massive reparations to the Native Americans here before us and to the nations which we have recently destroyed (e.g. Nicaragua, Haiti, El Salvador, Afghanistan, Kosovo, Guatemala, Iraq, Iran, etc.) and the nations which we have helped destroy such as Palestine. We should also be trying the surviving leaders of these conquests for war crimes--just like Milosevic, Hussein and the German Nazis were tried.

thefranzkafkafront wrote: Im trying to put a objective perspective on the matter.
I don't think we can be objective, but I think you're correct to make the point that most nation building has succeeded through might-makes-right brutality.

The lone superpower could be that "city on a hill" by applying to itself the same standards it applies to others.

[superskippy]

What do you think I meant? It's wrong, it's illegal, and they shouldnt do it. I'm against expansion of any settlements in the West Bank at all as well. What more do you want me to say? Are you so eager for an argument your going to pursue me when I'm agreeing with you?

[Ameriman]

Bonobo wrote: superskippy wrote:
Of course in those cases I would have to condemn it, it's breaking a near universal law. Not to mention my belief in the stupidity of expanding our presence in the West Bank. While I beleive we shouldnt withdraw yet, I think it is insane to expand deeper into the West Bank. After all we arent going to keep all of that, and we cannot possibly hope to pacify that Arab population nor would we want to, and with more tendrals of settlements we create a harder atmosphere to withdraw from due to the spread out nature of the settlements.

But I firmly beleive that we should remain there, they serve as vital bulwarks and outposts against Palestinian attacks and are a major negotiating tool for any peace deal. Also the Palestinians have given us no reason to withdraw and have only ever proved how useful they are at preventing attacks as well as local pacification.

So you will simply 'condemn' your country and government intentionally breaking the law and provking Palistinians for no apparent reason when plenty of land is available elsewhere, and ignore it and go on saying 'But some Palistinian terrorists are evil so it doesn't matter if we act evil too and provoke them and eliminate any chance of peace'

No apparent reason? :lol:

[Bonobo]

superskippy wrote: What do you think I meant? It's wrong, it's illegal, and they shouldnt do it. I'm against expansion of any settlements in the West Bank at all as well. What more do you want me to say? Are you so eager for an argument your going to pursue me when I'm agreeing with you?

What angers me is that you can simply ignore such government instigated provocation and compare it to Palistinian mercenaries often fighting due to personal loss. While your government acts this way you cannot expect Palistinian orphans made homeless to want anything other than to blow themsleves up. It is in my nind clear who the responsibility for the continuing conflict lies with and how you can read evidence like this and simply dismiss it with "But one or two terrorists are evil so my government's actions don't matter' I don't know.