Political Crossfire Forums

[Eduffy80911]

From Captain Capitalist

Quote:
What Kind of Nation are We Building?

There have been calls from both Democrats and Republicans lately to divide Iraq up into three autonomous units; Kurd, Sunni and Shiah. We have already established that oil revenue in Iraq should be under state control and under the 3 zone plan that would remain the case with revenues being divied up in a manner to be determined.

The question is, why is the the land of the free and the home of the brave advocating a model that separates people by ethnicity and religion and gives the government a monopoly over the country's chief resource?

Some of the primary causes of misery in the world are lack of: recognition of the rights of individuals, equality under the law of individuals, freedom of or from religion, freedom of association, private property rights and limited government. The reason for the success of the United States is that these fundamental rights are embedded in our constitution. Now, in Iraq we're contemplating the institutionalization of racism, theocracy and fascism, a democratically elected racist, fascist theocracy.

If our goal is to spread freedom, let's make the case for freedom and if it's turned away, that's all we could do. You can't force feed freedom. Establishing order for order's sake is not in and of itself a virtuous endeavor.

Why don't we do more to promote the system that has served us so well? (relatively speaking)

IMHO helping Iraq divide itself ethnicly and religiously is unAmerican.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Why should any individual have anything to say regarding this or any other plan unless they happen to be an Iraqi citizen?

Seriously !

The audacity of anyone who believes they have the right to tell the Iraqi people how they should live or what form of government they should adhere to.

[Eduffy80911]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Why should any individual have anything to say regarding this or any other plan unless they happen to be an Iraqi citizen?

Seriously !

The audacity of anyone who believes they have the right to tell the Iraqi people how they should live or what form of government they should adhere to.

"Making the case for" does not equal imposition
There's nothing wrong with advocating a system one thinks would be advantageous.

I agree that imposing one would be wrong of us and I believe that, if and when we leave, one local faction or another will tell the Iraqi people how they're going to live and what form of government they'll be adhering to. But at least they'll be local despots.

[Vexillum]

Eduffy80911 wrote: IMHO helping Iraq divide itself ethnicly and religiously is unAmerican.

Screwing whitey is the American way. Non-whites are welcome to divide themselves when it's to their benefit.

[Eduffy80911]

Vexillum wrote: Eduffy80911 wrote: IMHO helping Iraq divide itself ethnicly and religiously is unAmerican.

Screwing whitey is the American way. Non-whites are welcome to divide themselves when it's to their benefit.

When is racism to the benefit of anyone besides the self annointed leaders?

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Eduffy80911 wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Why should any individual have anything to say regarding this or any other plan unless they happen to be an Iraqi citizen?

Seriously !

The audacity of anyone who believes they have the right to tell the Iraqi people how they should live or what form of government they should adhere to.

"Making the case for" does not equal imposition
There's nothing wrong with advocating a system one thinks would be advantageous.

I agree that imposing one would be wrong of us and I believe that, if and when we leave, one local faction or another will tell the Iraqi people how they're going to live and what form of government they'll be adhering to. But at least they'll be local despots.

Kinda like Afghanistan ?
Why not instruct the Iraqi's they should live according to the proximity of their local mosque?
Do away completely with any notion of a central government and place the safety and security in the hands of their respective Imam's.

[Alizard]

Eduffy80911 wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Why should any individual have anything to say regarding this or any other plan unless they happen to be an Iraqi citizen?

Seriously !

The audacity of anyone who believes they have the right to tell the Iraqi people how they should live or what form of government they should adhere to.

"Making the case for" does not equal imposition
There's nothing wrong with advocating a system one thinks would be advantageous.

Where have you been?

Bushco had their pack of hand-picked candidates all ready to "make the case" for democracy and the Iraqis kicked them to the curb at the first election.

They want a theocracy and they want the right to slaughter their neighbors.

So be it.

[Alizard]

server crash duplication

[Tracker]

Eduffy wrote:

IMHO helping Iraq divide itself ethnicly and religiously is unAmerican.

Well, IMHO, those are contradictions in terms. All religion does is DIVIDE in HATRED against 'not their kind of people' -- ANY CONCOCTED EXCUSE WILL DO.

However, I agreee the ideals of UNITING in PeaceOnEarth are most certain 'american,' and that above all other 'ideals' MUST be adhered to.

Only religions HATES YOU ... and only governments LOVE YOU ALL EQUALLY.

Look to the 'model' of Iraq to see EXACTLY what religionists version of 'love' is when their hateful religious supremacy is confronted. They're all armed to the teeth and are the FIRST to bomb, kill, rape, pillage and plunder in their so-called 'positive-goodness.' oh no? The most people killed in any war involving the United States was the Civil War, where CHURCH declared war against and fought GOVERNMENT after government DEMANDED that the SANCTITY OF EQUALITY SHALL NOT DENIED.

And right after the HatefulReligiousSupremacists, all Christians, every last one of them, figured out they were losing, they changed their wording, as usual, to PROFIT/PROPHETEER from atop the rubble, misery and GRIEF of their OWN MAKING, as usual.

FACT.

So now, even those that were against it, subscribe to the same hateful religious supremacist ideology -- the 'nemsis' just changes every day -- like 'gays' or any other group hatefully cast-out and declared as being 'negative' by the so-called 'positive-people' whom do nothing but use the figurative nails of their own hypocritical forked-tongues (SNAKES!) to ruthlessly hammer 'negatives' against their self-made, merciless so-called 'positive-cross-signs' -- FigurativeCarpentry -- crucifiXtion -- the CrossOfShame/Hate -- in so-called 'positive-goodness' -- AS USUAL, ANY EXCUSE WILL DO -- the epitome of HATE.

Elton John has the HONESTY and INTEGRITY to speak up in DEFENSE of WeThePeopleOfEarth's governments and citizens to SERVE and PROTECT against that hateful war declared against the entire HumanityFamily by conspiring religions. He is one of the FEW to have the COURAGE.

And what do hateful religions and their media-empire do? Hatefully label him, of course, calling him any hateful religious label, such as 'atheist' -- anything at all to concoct a hateful label and CAST-OUT 'people not good enough for themselves,' in so-called 'positive-goodness,' and further their nonstop hateful ThoughtVirus that DIVIDES in HATE -- FigurativeCarpentry -- instead of UNITING in PeaceOnEarth, AS COMMANDED.

This is my last post. My computer is dead and I do not have the money to buy another, nor visit the library to borrow one.

Please remember my article and paradigm, "HowToWalkOnWater' which is available on indy-media. Google it ... or visit my blog and scrol down to find that article, MY WORDS of HEALING.

Kind Regards,
3Ons

[Flake]

The audacity of anyone who believes they have the right to tell the Iraqi people how they should live or what form of government they should adhere to.

There is historically an entity called a "protectorate", when a region or state is incapable of defending itself a more powerful nation comes in and takes care of it. This would not be too different.

I mean, I agree with you in principle, but we're in a situation where some sort of evasive action must be taken to prevent a bloodbath.....or more of one, I should say. Principle should take a backseat to the number of endangered lives we're talking about.

All that said.......I've come to realize that splitting Iraq is no better than keeping it together. Creating smaller, more manipulable states is not a recommended course of action. Little Iranistan would be gushing cash, a potential menace to the sunni states to its west. Sunnistan would be a cluster****, poor and out for revenge, probably swimming with al Qaeda-type islamists. And Kurdistan would be a powder keg, causing huge problems for Turkey and Iran with their potentially-breakaway Kurdish populations. All this does not touch what they do with places like Baghdad and Kirkuk, which appear to be unpartitionable in the first place.

All this boils down to the fact that there is not a single positive solution on the horizon. All roads lead to a humiliating US withdrawal and a power vacuum in Iraq.

[Cal-Pak]

Eduffy80911 wrote:
IMHO helping Iraq divide itself ethnicly and religiously is unAmerican.
From what little I know about Iraqi history. It has only been in the last 100 years or so that the West, England, force these ethnic and religious groups to become a country. The area use to be separated according to ethnic and religious beliefs. It took Saddam Hussein to keep the country together, and we know how he did that. So what we would be doing would be returning Iraq to the way it use to be divided.
Iraq Modern history
Sykes-Picot Agreement

[cap'n queasy]

Eduffy80911 wrote: From Captain Capitalist

Quote:
What Kind of Nation are We Building?

There have been calls from both Democrats and Republicans lately to divide Iraq up into three autonomous units; Kurd, Sunni and Shiah. We have already established that oil revenue in Iraq should be under state control and under the 3 zone plan that would remain the case with revenues being divied up in a manner to be determined.

The question is, why is the the land of the free and the home of the brave advocating a model that separates people by ethnicity and religion and gives the government a monopoly over the country's chief resource?

Some of the primary causes of misery in the world are lack of: recognition of the rights of individuals, equality under the law of individuals, freedom of or from religion, freedom of association, private property rights and limited government. The reason for the success of the United States is that these fundamental rights are embedded in our constitution. Now, in Iraq we're contemplating the institutionalization of racism, theocracy and fascism, a democratically elected racist, fascist theocracy.

If our goal is to spread freedom, let's make the case for freedom and if it's turned away, that's all we could do. You can't force feed freedom. Establishing order for order's sake is not in and of itself a virtuous endeavor.

Why don't we do more to promote the system that has served us so well? (relatively speaking)

IMHO helping Iraq divide itself ethnicly and religiously is unAmerican.

The worst thing about it for the US is that a Kurdish autonomous zone would causes big problems with Turkey. I think Iraqis pretty much have a sense of nationhood, though, so I don't even how well a partitioned Iraq would even go over with them.

[Alizard]

cap'n queasy wrote:

The worst thing about it for the US is that a Kurdish autonomous zone would causes big problems with Turkey. I think Iraqis pretty much have a sense of nationhood, though, so I don't even how well a partitioned Iraq would even go over with them.

Yep, and Turkey has been a long time ally (a real one). They let us put nuclear missiles there back in the 50's that were aimed right down the Soviets throat..... and made them a prime target. We also flew constant "surveillance patrols" using squadrons of b-52's out of bases there in the 50's and early 60's before our nuclear sub fleet was deployed to keep the Soviets honest.

It would be a shame to screw them over and alienate one of a handful of former allies who don't currently loathe us.

[Moracca]

Eduffy80911 wrote: From Captain Capitalist

Quote:
What Kind of Nation are We Building?

There have been calls from both Democrats and Republicans lately to divide Iraq up into three autonomous units; Kurd, Sunni and Shiah. We have already established that oil revenue in Iraq should be under state control and under the 3 zone plan that would remain the case with revenues being divied up in a manner to be determined.

The question is, why is the the land of the free and the home of the brave advocating a model that separates people by ethnicity and religion and gives the government a monopoly over the country's chief resource?

Some of the primary causes of misery in the world are lack of: recognition of the rights of individuals, equality under the law of individuals, freedom of or from religion, freedom of association, private property rights and limited government. The reason for the success of the United States is that these fundamental rights are embedded in our constitution. Now, in Iraq we're contemplating the institutionalization of racism, theocracy and fascism, a democratically elected racist, fascist theocracy.

If our goal is to spread freedom, let's make the case for freedom and if it's turned away, that's all we could do. You can't force feed freedom. Establishing order for order's sake is not in and of itself a virtuous endeavor.

Why don't we do more to promote the system that has served us so well? (relatively speaking)

IMHO helping Iraq divide itself ethnicly and religiously is unAmerican.

Great idea. Partisian is the best option out there right now IMO.

[Moracca]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Eduffy80911 wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Why should any individual have anything to say regarding this or any other plan unless they happen to be an Iraqi citizen?

Seriously !

The audacity of anyone who believes they have the right to tell the Iraqi people how they should live or what form of government they should adhere to.

"Making the case for" does not equal imposition
There's nothing wrong with advocating a system one thinks would be advantageous.

I agree that imposing one would be wrong of us and I believe that, if and when we leave, one local faction or another will tell the Iraqi people how they're going to live and what form of government they'll be adhering to. But at least they'll be local despots.

Kinda like Afghanistan ?
Why not instruct the Iraqi's they should live according to the proximity of their local mosque?
Do away completely with any notion of a central government and place the safety and security in the hands of their respective Imam's.

For some reason that sounds very familiar Richard. Could it be because that's what is going on right now?

[bla bla]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote:
Kinda like Afghanistan ?
Why not instruct the Iraqi's they should live according to the proximity of
their local mosque? Do away completely with any notion of a central
government and place the safety and security in the hands of their
respective Imam's.

That's exactly what is happening in a way.
The Sunni/Shiite sectarian violence is not a racial, or political, civil war.
It's a war between Imam's that goes back hundreds of years (or more)
about a small difference of interpretation of the Koran.

The problem is in their proximity. They live in the same towns, and
cities, and they see each other as religious enemies.

They both hate the Kurds.

[Federali]

Partitioning Iraq is a good idea but I seriously doubt that would ever take place. The idea of creating three separate states with a federal government is better than what they have now. Greater autonomy may equal less violence.

However, if anything, all political hacks lack the vision and forethought to solve important geo-political problems. There are no leaders in Washington, only political stooges. Besides, this has never been about Iraq; it's all about Oil.

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Moracca wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Eduffy80911 wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: Why should any individual have anything to say regarding this or any other plan unless they happen to be an Iraqi citizen?

Seriously !

The audacity of anyone who believes they have the right to tell the Iraqi people how they should live or what form of government they should adhere to.

"Making the case for" does not equal imposition
There's nothing wrong with advocating a system one thinks would be advantageous.

I agree that imposing one would be wrong of us and I believe that, if and when we leave, one local faction or another will tell the Iraqi people how they're going to live and what form of government they'll be adhering to. But at least they'll be local despots.

Kinda like Afghanistan ?
Why not instruct the Iraqi's they should live according to the proximity of their local mosque?
Do away completely with any notion of a central government and place the safety and security in the hands of their respective Imam's.

For some reason that sounds very familiar Richard. Could it be because that's what is going on right now?

:-D I was being a bit facetious

[rye]

cap'n queasy wrote: The worst thing about it for the US is that a Kurdish autonomous zone would causes big problems with Turkey. I think Iraqis pretty much have a sense of nationhood, though, so I don't even how well a partitioned Iraq would even go over with them.

Sure, and Iran would greatly expand its influence. Partitioning simply isn't an option due to the positive effect on Iran and the negative effect on Turkey.

[bla bla]

The U.R.M.E.S.

United Republic of Middle Eastern States

YUR MESS...

:lol:



Everybody loves NATO so much, we could just say...
"Fine, we give up, NATO now has full authority. We are pulling out."

That would be fun to watch, NATO actually trying to live up to it's
rhetoric without the US.