Political Crossfire Forums

[Richard Owl Mirror]

Bush meets with Iraq Study Group amid calls for change
• President Bush meets Monday with blue-ribbon Iraq Study Group
• Democrats, allies call for talks on Iraq to include Iran, Syria, other nations in region
• Democrats call for U.S. troop withdrawals to begin in four to six months
• White House says fixed timetable for withdrawal could be "disaster"

Quote: The study group, led by James Baker and Lee Hamilton,
is expected to deliver its recommendations by the end of the year.

~snip~

"We've got to put pressure on them to do what only the Iraqi leaders can do,
which is work out a political solution in Iraq," Levin said.

~@~

Is there any comparable throughout history where TWO factions of the same Religion
ever put aside their differences and formed a government?

I came across a two-point question last night that might provide an answer.

Do you think Culture brings Order ? YES
Does Culture survive Revolution ? YES

I certainly hope this Iraq Study Group asked themselves these questions.

[indieinmich]

The Iraqi people are strong, proud, intelligent, and moral folks.They can and will.
The question is for me...Will we allow them the opportunity?

[Richard Owl Mirror]

indieinmich wrote: The Iraqi people are strong, proud, intelligent, and moral folks.They can and will.
The question is for me...Will we allow them the opportunity?

That comes back to my questions regarding CULTURE.
Bush stated many times that he wanted to place Democracy in the Heart of Islam.
What did the Iraqi people vote for, a fusion of Democracy coupled with ISLAM.

THE PREAMBLE
In the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate

We have honored the sons of Adam.

~snip~

SECTION ONE: FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES
Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

~@~

Not much room for Democracy in those words !
Guess that means BUSH FAILED !

Now we just need to find a way out.

[indieinmich]

Democracy-1 form of government in which the people rule directly by assembling in meetings in order to vote on issues, or indirectly by going to the polls in order to elect represenatives who will so act for them.2 nation or state so governed.3 the treating of others as equals.

I dont know I think they have a chance.It may not be what Bush or any of us have in mind.But its their country and they have to live there.If they want Religion at the center of their new government so be it.
Its not as if that is such a whacked idea."In God we Trust" on every dollar bill."One Nation under God."

Certainly their religion is somewhat stifling in our view.But if its what the majority wants its what the majority gets.They need some time to make it work for them.How could any government succeed with all that is happening daily over there?

I hope they succeed in putting the shambles of which their country has become back together.My only dismay in this is that GWBush may get credited for it in history.

[PheelGoodInc]

All people yearn for freedom. It's a basic instinct. Change does not go about quickly, look at the founding of America. We were drunk with freedom for a while, then had to make some major changes in order for the country to survive. I have no doubt the Iraqi people will be able to sustain a free and prosperous society. The only question is how long it will take them.

[Flake]

All people yearn for freedom.

Fanciful, idealistic nonsense. People want safety and survival first, food and shelter second, and freedom comes somewhere like 5th place. The vast majority of humans will opt for safety and food over freedom every time.

Right now there is a situation in Iraq where most people have no safety. They will gladly forego a chance at democracy for a better chance of survival. Iraq will get it together - and eventually be able to sustain and defend itself (with help from new big brother Iran) - when a strongman arrives and cleans house, takes no prisioners, and takes care of business with a homegrown legitimacy the American forces never had. My impression is that with the eyes of the world on the place, it will have to be a relatively "benevolent" strongman that will consolidate power by eradicating the militants and giving people the safety they crave.

The fact is that Iraq is in a tough spot - its a Frankenstein creation that has no cohesion, riddled with conflicts and mistrust. However, the alternative - splitting into ethnic nations or semi-states - is even worse, with the potential to really throw the region into chaos.

[PheelGoodInc]

Flake wrote: All people yearn for freedom.

Fanciful, idealistic nonsense. People want safety and survival first, food and shelter second, and freedom comes somewhere like 5th place. The vast majority of humans will opt for safety and food over freedom every time.

Right now there is a situation in Iraq where most people have no safety. They will gladly forego a chance at democracy for a better chance of survival. Iraq will get it together - and eventually be able to sustain and defend itself (with help from new big brother Iran) - when a strongman arrives and cleans house, takes no prisioners, and takes care of business with a homegrown legitimacy the American forces never had. My impression is that with the eyes of the world on the place, it will have to be a relatively "benevolent" strongman that will consolidate power by eradicating the militants and giving people the safety they crave.

The fact is that Iraq is in a tough spot - its a Frankenstein creation that has no cohesion, riddled with conflicts and mistrust. However, the alternative - splitting into ethnic nations or semi-states - is even worse, with the potential to really throw the region into chaos.

The only nonsense here came from your post. Think about the founding of America. We took freedom over security. We had no idea how successful we would be. As someone was quoted during the cold war, "I would rather see my daughters die under freedom than live under communism". Those are very powerful words. Freedom is something that a human yearns for. Although we cannot assume that our values are universally shared, we need not conclude either that our deepest values lack universal validity or that no values are universally shared. The liberation of Kabul suggests that cultures and values are perhaps not so different after all.

[Sands]

PheelGoodInc wrote: The liberation of Kabul suggests that cultures and values are perhaps not so different after all.
What does Kabul have to do with Iraq?

BTW... Kabul is the only city in Afghanistan that is free from Taliban domination and just barely at that.

[Flake]

Yes, and for that matter:

Think about the founding of America

What does American Revolution have to do with Iraq? Civilians were not being killed en masse. The Americans were generally on the same team, rather than killing each other over sectarian differences.

You guys always try to say "look at Japan", "look at our revolution" without explaining your point, or justifying the comparison. It never stands up to the slightest bit of scrutiny.

[PheelGoodInc]

Sands wrote: PheelGoodInc wrote: The liberation of Kabul suggests that cultures and values are perhaps not so different after all.
What does Kabul have to do with Iraq?

BTW... Kabul is the only city in Afghanistan that is free from Taliban domination and just barely at that.

It shows that people to care about liberation and freedom, especially those who were oppressed.

Flake wrote: Yes, and for that matter:

Think about the founding of America

What does American Revolution have to do with Iraq? Civilians were not being killed en masse. The Americans were generally on the same team, rather than killing each other over sectarian differences.

You guys always try to say "look at Japan", "look at our revolution" without explaining your point, or justifying the comparison. It never stands up to the slightest bit of scrutiny.

It has plenty in common with America. We were oppressed so we decided to rebel and grasp after a chance of freedom. Sure there are some differences as you cited such as mass amounts of civilians being killed, but in principle it stays the same.

[Sands]

PheelGoodInc wrote: Sands wrote: PheelGoodInc wrote: The liberation of Kabul suggests that cultures and values are perhaps not so different after all.
What does Kabul have to do with Iraq?

BTW... Kabul is the only city in Afghanistan that is free from Taliban domination and just barely at that.

It shows that people to care about liberation and freedom, especially those who were oppressed.
The "liberation" of Kabul has nothing to do with this thread which is about Iraq and if you believe Afghanistan is a liberated free democracy, you are sadly mistaken.

[sLiPpY]

Richard Owl, normally I'd attempt to compose a thoughtful response to one of your post.

But check out the quote in my sig...

F _ _ _! Iraq

Catch my drift?

[Rankor and Pissing]

Richard Owl Mirror wrote: indieinmich wrote: The Iraqi people are strong, proud, intelligent, and moral folks.They can and will.
The question is for me...Will we allow them the opportunity?

That comes back to my questions regarding CULTURE.
Bush stated many times that he wanted to place Democracy in the Heart of Islam.
What did the Iraqi people vote for, a fusion of Democracy coupled with ISLAM.

THE PREAMBLE
In the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate

We have honored the sons of Adam.

~snip~

SECTION ONE: FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES
Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

~@~

Not much room for Democracy in those words !
Guess that means BUSH FAILED !

Now we just need to find a way out.

Ok... let's say Bush failed. We all failed since Bush is probably not going to be at the end of a bullet or bomb or the next terrorist hit. 8 million dollars a month to keep 140,000 troops in Iraq... how much will the American taxpayer need to pay or how much will it cost the Government to keep 8 million whatjob terrorists from attacking the United States? 20 million a month? More? Less?

All I hear from the newly elected is "phased re-deployment". If that's the way out, it will also be the rallying cry and middle east rhetoric that attracts and recruits tens of thousands more to killing America and the United Kingdom. When the bases are all gone, and they keep coming... what then?

Yep, my crystal ball says so. So now... take that analytical browser of yours and show me why phased re-deployment will work in Iraq. Prove to me that phased re-deployment won't increase the amount of terrorists that will attack the U.S. Show me where it will defeat the Iranians who are funding the uprising and lastly, show me how Iraq's government and their police force and military - who's feeble and over-run with spies and infiltrated by the warlord religious freak factions will defend Iraq as a country against the Iranians - or how they'll reject Taliban or extremists like Al Qaeda.

And what did the new congress say they're going to take on? Minimum wage and the Medical drug benefit plan? Yeah.... okay. Don't mind that Mexican border or the tens of thousands of terrorists leaving Iraq is going to make... nah... we'll just blame Bush! Ok... sure... sounds like a plan. :lol:

[sLiPpY]

Rankor and Pissing wrote: Richard Owl Mirror wrote: indieinmich wrote: The Iraqi people are strong, proud, intelligent, and moral folks.They can and will.
The question is for me...Will we allow them the opportunity?

That comes back to my questions regarding CULTURE.
Bush stated many times that he wanted to place Democracy in the Heart of Islam.
What did the Iraqi people vote for, a fusion of Democracy coupled with ISLAM.

THE PREAMBLE
In the name of God, the most merciful, the most compassionate

We have honored the sons of Adam.

~snip~

SECTION ONE: FUNDAMENTAL PRINCIPLES
Article 2:

First: Islam is the official religion of the State and it is a fundamental source of legislation:

A. No law that contradicts the established provisions of Islam may be established.

~@~

Not much room for Democracy in those words !
Guess that means BUSH FAILED !

Now we just need to find a way out.

Ok... let's say Bush failed. We all failed since Bush is probably not going to be at the end of a bullet or bomb or the next terrorist hit. 8 million dollars a month to keep 140,000 troops in Iraq... how much will the American taxpayer need to pay or how much will it cost the Government to keep 8 million whatjob terrorists from attacking the United States? 20 million a month? More? Less?

All I hear from the newly elected is "phased re-deployment". If that's the way out, it will also be the rallying cry and middle east rhetoric that attracts and recruits tens of thousands more to killing America and the United Kingdom. When the bases are all gone, and they keep coming... what then?

Yep, my crystal ball says so. So now... take that analytical browser of yours and show me why phased re-deployment will work in Iraq. Prove to me that phased re-deployment won't increase the amount of terrorists that will attack the U.S. Show me where it will defeat the Iranians who are funding the uprising and lastly, show me how Iraq's government and their police force and military - who's feeble and over-run with spies and infiltrated by the warlord religious freak factions will defend Iraq as a country against the Iranians - or how they'll reject Taliban or extremists like Al Qaeda.

And what did the new congress say they're going to take on? Minimum wage and the Medical drug benefit plan? Yeah.... okay. Don't mind that Mexican border or the tens of thousands of terrorists leaving Iraq is going to make... nah... we'll just blame Bush! Ok... sure... sounds like a plan. :lol:

That's 8-10 Billion per month, not million. :wink:

BILLION!

[maddessa]

PheelGoodInc wrote: All people yearn for freedom.


I used to believe this but Iraq has changed my mind on this. I think this is what Rummy based his idea that we would be welcomed in Baghdad on. Religion appears to trump freedom in some cultures.

[Proton]

Iraq's problem if it can.

As long as America pulls out so they have one foreign element less, after that it's their problem.

[Zadoc]

In its current state? No.

The country needs to be divided into three self governing regious, with a minimumal federal government, much like a confederacy.

[sLiPpY]

maddessa wrote: PheelGoodInc wrote: All people yearn for freedom.


I used to believe this but Iraq has changed my mind on this. I think this is what Rummy based his idea that we would be welcomed in Baghdad on. Religion appears to trump freedom in some cultures.

Actually, it's the culture that trumps religion.

The Middle East hasn't changed all that much since Macedonian times.

[Chingu]

Sands wrote: PheelGoodInc wrote: The liberation of Kabul suggests that cultures and values are perhaps not so different after all.
What does Kabul have to do with Iraq?

BTW... Kabul is the only city in Afghanistan that is free from Taliban domination and just barely at that.

That is patently false. Tha Taliban don't DOMINATE anywhere in Afghanistan anymore. Their presence is serious in Southern and far easterern Afghanistan but the entire north and almost the entire west is almost free from their influence.
He was using Kabul as an example of how a totally differnt and similarly divided set of peoples can find a way to live with freedomand without chaos. He made a good point.

[Chingu]

I will assert again that, in my view, it is simple minded; small minded really and fully arrogant to believe that the Iraqi people can not find a way to make their newly formed fresh representative democracy work. There are plenty of other examples stretching the entire horizon of humanity across all races that demonstrate that it is not only possible but unavoidable.