Political Crossfire Forums

[Ayn Randian]

...at least until this is fixed. This is not a partisan issue. If our votes are counted by a completely unreliable system, what type of government do we have?

READ, WATCH, LEARN, OBJECT!!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7236791207107726851&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en-CA

http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/07/AR2006110700211.html

http://techdirt.com/articles/20061106/231708.shtml

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2646802&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

[Zadoc]

I personally believe that legislation must be passed to say that the only electronic voting machines that should be legal are optical scan machines.

[PricklySponge]

I dont see why we dont just check off a box next to somones name.

[Ayn Randian]

Zadoc,

Watch the video and read the links. The optical scanning system can be hacked and can also have error in the code that operates them (and does). Unless there is a recount, the results are unreliable. It is true that the optical scanning systems can be recounted since there is a paper record, and that is very good, if there is a recount. Of course, how do you have a recount when not all the systems can be recounted due to many not having a paper record? You can't. And, if you have to have a recount, if you have to count the votes manually, whats the use of the E-voting machines? Switching to all optical scanners might work, but we aren't there yet. Thats not what has happened.

I love computers, but E-voting is just not ready. We have implemented it too fast and without due diligence. This is a disaster for America and for democracy. The entire election results could have been decided by random computer selection (error) and/or hacking.

[FarPastGone]

The video link does not work.

[Ayn Randian]

New link for the video!!!!

Watch it!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5870961089890680364&q=hacking+american+elections

[Zadoc]

Ayn Randian wrote: Zadoc,

Watch the video and read the links. The optical scanning system can be hacked...

Yes, but it leaves a paper trail. It just isn't efficiant to hand count all ballots.

[Ayn Randian]

Quote: Yes, but it leaves a paper trail. It just isn't efficiant to hand count all ballots.
For God's sake, read my post again, watch the video, and read the links. You are right, as I already said, but you are missing the point.

[Ayn Randian]

Also,

The actual source code for the Diebold E-voting systems, which has numerous security flaws, can be downloaded here:

http://www.bbvdocs.org/diebold/fromFTPsite/GEMS.zip

It should shock you that you can get this at all!

[David]

I find it amusing that before the elections the Dems were already starting to complain about the problems with the machines yet since they won there's not a peep.

[PricklySponge]

David wrote: I find it amusing that before the elections the Dems were already starting to complain about the problems with the machines yet since they won there's not a peep.
All parties pull that kind of stuff. And none of it is excusable.

[Ayn Randian]

For God's sake....This is not a partisan issue.

Our democracy is at stake! Read the links, watch the video!

I will post more evidence of this problem.....am working on it now. I have more.

[Zadoc]

Ayn Randian wrote: Quote: Yes, but it leaves a paper trail. It just isn't efficiant to hand count all ballots.
For God's sake, read my post again, watch the video, and read the links. You are right, as I already said, but you are missing the point.

I get the point, and I have the documentary, "Hacking Democracy."

There are two problems with electronic voting machines.

1. pure electronic voting machines leave no paper trail and therefore it is impossible to determine the intent of the voter in a recount. These should be made illegal, I think we can all agree.

2. The memory cards on optical scan machines can be hacked before any votes are counted.

The solution is twofold.

1. The source code and specifications for these machines needs to be public information. As it stands, government oversight agencies cannot even analyze these machines due to patent laws.

2. Vote counting regulations and checks and balances are local. Procedures should be federalized, as such.

The creation of the Department of Fair elections under the USDOJ. The judiciary branch is the best equipped branch to defend the integrity of our elections.

All elections should spawn an automatic recount in which 1%-3% of all memory cards are analyzed for integrity and in which 1% to 3% of paper ballots are counted by hand, and chosen at random, to make sure they match up to the computer tallys. Representatives from the USDOJ must be on hand to certify that proper procedures are followed.

Bam. Problem solved.

[Ayn Randian]

Zadoc,

Thank you. Yes, you are right. We have a problem, a big one. None of the E-voting machines are at all reliable. If they are the type that produce a paper record of individual votes, they are superior. But, they are only superior if there is an actual recount. If not, you rely on the infallibility of an imperfect, unmonitored, and secretive system.

I have posted the source code of Diebold's system above. I can provide these files, as well as the documentary in other forms (torrents and other options- PM me if necessary). This source code is supposed to be secret. The fact that it is not is proof that their Diebold and the other E-voting vendors security system and assumptions are invalid. They rely on secrecy that does not exist. Their systems have BIG security holes, including completely obsolete encryption methods that are totally vulnerable.

The time of E-voting should not have come yet. It isn't ready. I can hack this system.

[Timmytour]

David wrote: I find it amusing that before the elections the Dems were already starting to complain about the problems with the machines yet since they won there's not a peep.

:lol:

too true

As I recall is didn't seem to be an issue which worried Republicans......back then anyway. :-D

Good to see the first thread come out about it AFTER the election. People are right to be concerned.

This is all a result of the media's desire for instant news. We don't need it. Count the papers and take your time counting the papers. Better that an election result is called right after days then wrong after hours.

What the hell is the rush all about? Especially when it could compromise accuracy?

I don't understand this obsession to make voting more convenient and counting more quickly.

The use of postal votes in the UK is an absolute farce. It's supposedly to make things more convenient for people to vote, yet it just makes being fraudulent easier. There have been instances where people in almost entire apartment blocks have their right to vote stolen in a postal vote scam.

I think major elections should be public holidays and I think people should be forced as much as possible to go to the polls to register their vote when they want to register a vote. Obviously there are cases to be made for the sick and enforced absences, but the underlying principal should neverless be if you want to vote and are capable of doing so, you turn up for it.

And having turned up for it, the least you should expect is that your vote will be registered and counted properly.

[eynon]

"IT'S ELECTION DAY!!!"

I love that scene :lol:

[Norrin Radd]

Why do we need electronic voting? Don't we have enough problems with hackers?

Ever search on some of the facilities hackers have accessed? Some of the most secure facilities in the world have been hacked.

Nuclear facilities and the DOD have had many attacks.

Some people will never get it. Logic and common sense should dictate electronic voting is an unneccesary risk.

Attacks on Defense computer systems are a serious and growing threat. The exact number of attacks cannot be readily determined because only a small portion are actually detected and reported. However, Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) data implies that Defense may have experienced as many as 250,000 attacks last year. DISA information also shows that attacks are successful 65 percent of the time, and that the number of attacks is doubling each year, as internet use increases along with the sophistication of "hackers"[1] and their tools. At a minimum, these attacks are a multimillion dollar nuisance to Defense. At worst, they are a serious threat to national security. Attackers have seized control of entire Defense systems, many of which support critical functions, such as weapons systems research and development, logistics, and finance.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/hackers/risks/dodattacks.html

Above is an old story, but things haven't gotten much better. The DOD was actually looking to hire hackers, back in 2000 to help protect their systems, not sure how that is working out.

[beachbum bob]

Ayn Randian wrote: ...at least until this is fixed. This is not a partisan issue. If our votes are counted by a completely unreliable system, what type of government do we have?

READ, WATCH, LEARN, OBJECT!!!!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7236791207107726851&sourceid=docidfeed&hl=en-CA

http://avirubin.com/vote.pdf

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/07/AR2006110700211.html

http://techdirt.com/articles/20061106/231708.shtml

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2646802&CMP=OTC-RSSFeeds0312

couldn't agree more....theat electronic voting machines as we know them now are not conducive to have faith in voting...been saying for years, until Soros and Oprah buy Diebold...nothing will be done about it

as one party feels no threat and the other does. When everyone feels threaten, action will be taken. Hopefully

[cool_chick]

David wrote: I find it amusing that before the elections the Dems were already starting to complain about the problems with the machines yet since they won there's not a peep.

True.

After January, they better make a peep to modify the machines for paper now though...I fully expect it. We know the Republicans didn't care, one of the many reasons they're gone now.....let the Democrats take care of the issue.

I heard Virginia coudln't be physically recounted if they wanted to. That's unacceptable.

[cap'n queasy]

If there was a problem with E-voting we wouldn't be facing the massive crisis that is coming in January that we are.