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Babylon_Horuv · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 2065

Just a question for Jews. When the messiah comes, will he be for all, as Christians claim Christ was, or will he be only for Jews?

Nathyn · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 7398 Location: The Great Satan

Babylon_Horuv wrote: Just a question for Jews. When the messiah comes, will he be for all, as Christians claim Christ was, or will he be only for Jews?
I'm no Jew, but I can answer your question.

The answer is: Yes, for those who follow ethical monotheism, at least. The Messiah (who may be interpreted as a man or as the nation of Israel itself) will eventually bring about world peace and universal justice. The Tanakh makes no distinction whether it is strictly for Jews or not. The fact that Jews are designated as a class of priests to guide mankind to ethical monotheism suggests no, that it is not just for Jews, and that the coming of the Messiah will be the fulfillment of their goal, when all will be brought to faith in God.

Nathyn · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 7398 Location: The Great Satan

Oh, and also: Christians claim their Messiah is for all, but this is false. Their Messiah is for Christians.

Non-Christians derive no benefit from having the four horsemen of the apocalypse reek havoc on the Earth, along with the tribulations of dealing with the supposed anti-Christ, beast of the Apocalypse, and Satan.

Jews, too, must convert to Christianity or perish.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22515 Location: Houston

Nathyn wrote: Oh, and also: Christians claim their Messiah is for all, but this is false. Their Messiah is for Christians.

Non-Christians derive no benefit from having the four horsemen of the apocalypse reek havoc on the Earth, along with the tribulations of dealing with the supposed anti-Christ, beast of the Apocalypse, and Satan.

Jews, too, must convert to Christianity or perish.

Our Messiah? You mean THE Messiah. And of course the Messiah isn't for you if YOU reject Him. Duh. :gdgf:

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7892 Location: Petah Tikva

Do we get the chance to accept him when he arrives?

Nathyn · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 7398 Location: The Great Satan

superskippy wrote: Do we get the chance to accept him when he arrives?
Depends on the interpretation.

The popular yet wacky futurist interpretation of the Book of Revelations states that there's never any "proof," of the Messiah's divinity until it's too late. That would kind of defeat the entire point of Christians hassling us to believe in Jesus now, anyway. People that die now just go to Hell.

But prophecy says that most, if not all, Jews will convert to Christianity.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15682 Location: On Earth

I'm of the Christian belief that the Messiah is coming, but of the Jewish belief that we should not be occupied with the advent of the Messiah.

eynon · Posted: Thu Nov 23, 2006 3:51 am Post subject:

Saracen wrote: I'm of the Christian belief that the Messiah is coming, but of the Jewish belief that we should not be occupied with the advent of the Messiah.

Christians should believe that way too.........

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22515 Location: Houston

superskippy wrote: Do we get the chance to accept him when he arrives?

Well, kinda....things are going to work out where He will arrive WHEN you guys accept Him (at just the right time). But don't worry...God is pretty smart. It'll work out.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22515 Location: Houston

Nathyn wrote: superskippy wrote: Do we get the chance to accept him when he arrives?
Depends on the interpretation.

The popular yet wacky futurist interpretation of the Book of Revelations states that there's never any "proof," of the Messiah's divinity until it's too late. That would kind of defeat the entire point of Christians hassling us to believe in Jesus now, anyway. People that die now just go to Hell.

But prophecy says that most, if not all, Jews will convert to Christianity.

Not true. In fact Revelation says that Angels will proclaim the Gospel from the Heavens during the Tribulation and people will STILL reject it. They will be seeing the book of Revelation unfold before their eyes and still refuse to accept God's way.

And as for Jews converting into Christianity...well not really. The "Church" or "Christianity" is a special title that had a beginning (Day of Pentecost) and will have an end (Rapture) right before the Tribulation. The Jews that are Redeemed by Jesus during the Tribulation won't be "Christians" or the "Church" or in other words the "Bride of Christ"...they will be redeemed Jews who have accepted the true Messiah. They will have a different role than the Church will have in the Kingdom of God.

Gentiles that are saved during the Tribulation will have a different role in Heaven too.

As can be seen here:

Revelation 7
9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands;

10and they cry out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation to our God who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb."

11And all the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures; and they fell on their faces before the throne and worshiped God,

12saying, "Amen, blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and might, be to our God forever and ever Amen."

13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are clothed in the white robes, who are they, and where have they come from?"

14 I said to him, "My lord, you know." And he said to me, "These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15"For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne will spread His tabernacle over them.

16"They will hunger no longer, nor thirst anymore; nor will the sun beat down on them, nor any heat;

17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd, and will guide them to springs of the water of life; and God will wipe every tear from their eyes."

I personally see a parallel with this and Gibeonites in Joshua chapter 9.

Nathyn · Joined: 25 Sep 2005 Posts: 7398 Location: The Great Satan

eynon wrote: Saracen wrote: I'm of the Christian belief that the Messiah is coming, but of the Jewish belief that we should not be occupied with the advent of the Messiah.

Christians should believe that way too.........
BL-BL-BL!!

Thar end of days is a a'comin', Jeb!

The Iraq war and war on terr'rism is a sign.

We's haves to prepares for the comings of the Lord!

John wrote: Nathyn wrote: superskippy wrote: Do we get the chance to accept him when he arrives?
Depends on the interpretation.

The popular yet wacky futurist interpretation of the Book of Revelations states that there's never any "proof," of the Messiah's divinity until it's too late. That would kind of defeat the entire point of Christians hassling us to believe in Jesus now, anyway. People that die now just go to Hell.

But prophecy says that most, if not all, Jews will convert to Christianity.

Not true. In fact Revelation says that Angels will proclaim the Gospel from the Heavens during the Tribulation and people will STILL reject it. They will be seeing the book of Revelation unfold before their eyes and still refuse to accept God's way.

And as for Jews converting into Christianity...well not really. The "Church" or "Christianity" is a special title that had a beginning (Day of Pentecost) and will have an end (Rapture) right before the Tribulation. The Jews that are Redeemed by Jesus during the Tribulation won't be "Christians" or the "Church" or in other words the "Bride of Christ"...they will be redeemed Jews who have accepted the true Messiah. They will have a different role than the Church will have in the Kingdom of God.
If you say so.

The Book of Revelation totally confuses me. There's never been any particular clear, single interpretation of it (I've heard others say different from what you're saying, but who's to say you're necessarily wrong?) and the whole thing is so extremely metaphorical.

Jesus is supposed to come back as like a mutated, killer sheep with like nine eyes and five arms or something like that.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22515 Location: Houston

Nathyn wrote: eynon wrote: Saracen wrote: I'm of the Christian belief that the Messiah is coming, but of the Jewish belief that we should not be occupied with the advent of the Messiah.

Christians should believe that way too.........
BL-BL-BL!!

Thar end of days is a a'comin', Jeb!

The Iraq war and war on terr'rism is a sign.

We's haves to prepares for the comings of the Lord!

John wrote: Nathyn wrote: superskippy wrote: Do we get the chance to accept him when he arrives?
Depends on the interpretation.

The popular yet wacky futurist interpretation of the Book of Revelations states that there's never any "proof," of the Messiah's divinity until it's too late. That would kind of defeat the entire point of Christians hassling us to believe in Jesus now, anyway. People that die now just go to Hell.

But prophecy says that most, if not all, Jews will convert to Christianity.

Not true. In fact Revelation says that Angels will proclaim the Gospel from the Heavens during the Tribulation and people will STILL reject it. They will be seeing the book of Revelation unfold before their eyes and still refuse to accept God's way.

And as for Jews converting into Christianity...well not really. The "Church" or "Christianity" is a special title that had a beginning (Day of Pentecost) and will have an end (Rapture) right before the Tribulation. The Jews that are Redeemed by Jesus during the Tribulation won't be "Christians" or the "Church" or in other words the "Bride of Christ"...they will be redeemed Jews who have accepted the true Messiah. They will have a different role than the Church will have in the Kingdom of God.
If you say so.

The Book of Revelation totally confuses me. There's never been any particular clear, single interpretation of it (I've heard others say different from what you're saying, but who's to say you're necessarily wrong?) and the whole thing is so extremely metaphorical.

Jesus is supposed to come back as like a mutated, killer sheep with like nine eyes and five arms or something like that.

If you would like to really understand the book of Revelation....PM me and I'll give you a link to a guy who explains in and shows just how easy it is to understand. In fact it's the easiest book to understand in the whole Bible.

Duchifas · Joined: 22 Jun 2004 Posts: 9950

Is there any chance that the Jesusness could be discussed in the Christianity forum, where it more properly belongs? :)

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2550

Saracen wrote: I'm of the Christian belief that the Messiah is coming, but of the Jewish belief that we should not be occupied with the advent of the Messiah.

Jews believe that the Messiah is coming, but that it is not Jesus.

Mailech · Joined: 31 Aug 2004 Posts: 2550

There is a good point that was raised.

The reason you can say that the Jewish Messiah is for everyone who lives by ethical monotheism, not just Jews is that Judaism is not a set of beliefs per se. Though those beliefs are included in Judaism, what really defines Judaism is a set of laws. legalistic is not a dirty word in Judaism. So what is neccessary to benefit is the ethical monotheism as Nathyn pointed out, not neccessarily to be a Jew and thereby required to follow all the laws. In fact when Maimondies when to write the 13 principals of faith, there where many who said he should not do it, since Judaism is not about doctrine, but about action. Though again doctrine is behind the scenes.

As opposed to Christianity which is defined primarily by doctrine, and therefore you must have those beliefs to be a Christian and therefore menefit from the Messiah. So the two cannot be seperated.
I never saw the movie The Passion, but I heard a comment on it on the radio and it said it was not anti-Semitic, after all there where good Jews and bad Jews, the bad ones being the ones who cheered and approved the crucifixion, the good Jews being the ones who followed Jesus, well I thought then that makes them Christians not Jews. All it is is belief, there can be no good outside party.

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15682 Location: On Earth

Mailech wrote: Saracen wrote: I'm of the Christian belief that the Messiah is coming, but of the Jewish belief that we should not be occupied with the advent of the Messiah.

Jews believe that the Messiah is coming, but that it is not Jesus.

My apologies. I meant to say that I am of the Christian belief that the Messiah is Jesus, but of the Jewish belief that we shouldn't occupy ourselves with the thought about the Messiah. That being said, I'll cut the Jesusness now. :)

Babylon_Horuv · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 2065

Mailech wrote: There is a good point that was raised.

The reason you can say that the Jewish Messiah is for everyone who lives by ethical monotheism, not just Jews is that Judaism is not a set of beliefs per se. Though those beliefs are included in Judaism, what really defines Judaism is a set of laws. legalistic is not a dirty word in Judaism. So what is neccessary to benefit is the ethical monotheism as Nathyn pointed out, not neccessarily to be a Jew and thereby required to follow all the laws. In fact when Maimondies when to write the 13 principals of faith, there where many who said he should not do it, since Judaism is not about doctrine, but about action. Though again doctrine is behind the scenes.

As opposed to Christianity which is defined primarily by doctrine, and therefore you must have those beliefs to be a Christian and therefore menefit from the Messiah. So the two cannot be seperated.
I never saw the movie The Passion, but I heard a comment on it on the radio and it said it was not anti-Semitic, after all there where good Jews and bad Jews, the bad ones being the ones who cheered and approved the crucifixion, the good Jews being the ones who followed Jesus, well I thought then that makes them Christians not Jews. All it is is belief, there can be no good outside party.

I am glad to see a Jew addressing the original question. The idea of a messiah who accepts someone who does not accept him is foreign to me, but interesting. I would also like to join the others in rideculing the Christians who attempted to refocus the thread on Jesus.

superskippy · Joined: 14 Jul 2005 Posts: 7892 Location: Petah Tikva

John I'm curious, you have claimed that evangelists are the sole allies of the Jewish people besides God (if I worded that wrong I think you understand my meaning), but you have also said that people have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. So my question is this, are Jews in your mind damned to hell because we dont believe in Jesus in this world?

Saracen · Joined: 01 Dec 2005 Posts: 15682 Location: On Earth

superskippy wrote: John I'm curious, you have claimed that evangelists are the sole allies of the Jewish people besides God (if I worded that wrong I think you understand my meaning), but you have also said that people have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. So my question is this, are Jews in your mind damned to hell because we dont believe in Jesus in this world?

I'm frankly of the belief that believing God and following His Commandments are enough.

John · Joined: 02 Jun 2004 Posts: 22515 Location: Houston

superskippy wrote: John I'm curious, you have claimed that evangelists are the sole allies of the Jewish people besides God (if I worded that wrong I think you understand my meaning), but you have also said that people have to believe in Jesus to go to heaven. So my question is this, are Jews in your mind damned to hell because we dont believe in Jesus in this world?

If you reject the Messiah as your Lord and Savior...in other words reject God's plan for Salvation then yes, you'll be damned and go to Hell. But that’s between you and God…and according to prophecy…the Jews will come around and will accept the Messiah. It’ll all make sense when everything is said and done….Evangelicals trust God’s will and His word…so there is no doubt that this will all work out in the end for the Jews.