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The Comrade
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 12039
Location: Zagreb
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:27 pm Post subject: |
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a god can do whatever it so wishes.
i don't see what's hard to understand with that. |
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feederband
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 4058
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:48 pm Post subject: |
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The Comrade wrote: a god can do whatever it so wishes.
i don't see what's hard to understand with that.
And apparantly chooses to do nada... |
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The Comrade
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 12039
Location: Zagreb
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:52 pm Post subject: |
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feederband wrote:
And apparantly chooses to do nada...
okay |
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feederband
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 4058
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 5:59 pm Post subject: |
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The Comrade wrote: feederband wrote:
And apparantly chooses to do nada...
okay
okay back... :lol: |
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Whitefields
Joined: 20 Jun 2006
Posts: 1153
Location: Soon to be serving in the Japan Tokyo Mission
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 6:04 pm Post subject: Mercy and Justice |
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Boater4000
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:24 pm Post subject: |
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| If he can do anything, then can he overwrite a past ABSOLOUTE decision? If so, then that decision was not absoloute, as he can overwrite it. I'm not questioning that he can make a rock like this, merely if he can move it later and still be called "all powerful" |
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toddytodd
Joined: 20 May 2006
Posts: 2736
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:09 pm Post subject: |
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Boater4000 wrote: So... would most here say that the Christian god is not truly "omnipotent"? Because 99% of the time, I hear him described as that.
Replys to individual posts:
Toddytodd: But wouldn't that mean that if his laws were not absoloute, then he could not make an ABSOLOUTE LAW, making him not all powerful?
Todd D. The two actions are not directly contradictory, as they are not performed at the same time. It is possible to paint a ship black, and to paint it red, but it will not be fully black and red at the same time.
Quote: Toddytodd: But wouldn't that mean that if his laws were not absoloute, then he could not make an ABSOLOUTE LAW, making him not all powerful? I would suppose it is how one approaches the tpoic as to the answer. I have been taught that no one can understand God's will or natural laws like God does. That said, it is quite possible that God could change one natural law to do what he wants, with this change not effecting other laws that are related to this change directly. Basically, he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants because he is God.
To me, your question seems to be limiting God to our understanding, which is a grave miscalculation that people tend to do.
If God can't make an absolute law, then yes, I doubt it would make him all powerful, but my thought on it would be irrelevant to an all powerful god.
I apologize is that went in circles - that's the best explanation I can muster from what I was taught, since everything I was taught was done so in circles. |
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toddytodd
Joined: 20 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:11 pm Post subject: |
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The Comrade wrote: a god can do whatever it so wishes.
i don't see what's hard to understand with that.
I would agree 100%. |
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toddytodd
Joined: 20 May 2006
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 9:12 pm Post subject: |
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feederband wrote: The Comrade wrote: a god can do whatever it so wishes.
i don't see what's hard to understand with that.
And apparantly chooses to do nada...
Just because he can do anything doesn't mean he has to do anything. Or perhaps he has, but we just can't see it :!?: |
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feederband
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 4058
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 11:26 pm Post subject: |
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toddytodd wrote: feederband wrote: The Comrade wrote: a god can do whatever it so wishes.
i don't see what's hard to understand with that.
And apparantly chooses to do nada...
Just because he can do anything doesn't mean he has to do anything. Or perhaps he has, but we just can't see it :!?:
Na. If he's behind the scenes pulling the strings then he would be known as the drunkerd god...Or one that loves us being in misery... |
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The Comrade
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 12039
Location: Zagreb
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:25 am Post subject: |
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Boater4000 wrote: If he can do anything, then can he overwrite a past ABSOLOUTE decision? If so, then that decision was not absoloute, as he can overwrite it. I'm not questioning that he can make a rock like this, merely if he can move it later and still be called "all powerful"
doesn't the ability to undue an absolute show something to be all powerful? |
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The Comrade
Joined: 16 Jul 2006
Posts: 12039
Location: Zagreb
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 1:27 am Post subject: |
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feederband wrote:
Na. If he's behind the scenes pulling the strings then he would be known as the drunkerd god...Or one that loves us being in misery...
so apparently you know what god is up to?
nice one feederband, you've done what every theologin in the world has dreampt of |
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eynon
Joined: 03 Jul 2004
Posts: 19093
Location: Minneapolis......
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 5:28 am Post subject: |
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ikari wrote: That form of logic is only bound to our perception of the world. Gods operate outside of that, and are thus not beholden to such limitations.
nicely put......... :) |
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feederband
Joined: 26 Jan 2006
Posts: 4058
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 10:24 am Post subject: |
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The Comrade wrote: feederband wrote:
Na. If he's behind the scenes pulling the strings then he would be known as the drunkerd god...Or one that loves us being in misery...
so apparently you know what god is up to?
nice one feederband, you've done what every theologin in the world has dreampt of
Thanx...Actually it was quite simple really... |
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Gilbert1908
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 5197
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 12:38 pm Post subject: |
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mODULAR mAN wrote: Todd D. wrote: Can God make a two sided triangle? Can God make an all black ship that is red?
Just because you can say something doesn't mean that the tautology of the concept doesn't contradict the two being together.
This is right, it is logically meaningless.
Like calling God All-Just AND All-Forgiving. He can't be both.
You assume that justice and forgiveness are somehow mutually exclusive.
I can forgive my child and administer justice at the same time, in fact it can be argued that there is NO justice without forgiveness, and that forgiveness without justice is insanity. |
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thehollowman
Joined: 13 Aug 2006
Posts: 470
Location: Terra
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| Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2006 3:40 pm Post subject: |
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| Being omnipotent, I believe that he could do whatever he wanted. Even if it meant breaking his own rules. |
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Boater4000
Joined: 17 Sep 2006
Posts: 10
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 4:20 am Post subject: |
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The Comrade wrote: Boater4000 wrote: If he can do anything, then can he overwrite a past ABSOLOUTE decision? If so, then that decision was not absoloute, as he can overwrite it. I'm not questioning that he can make a rock like this, merely if he can move it later and still be called "all powerful"
doesn't the ability to undue an absolute show something to be all powerful?
But that would make the first statement NOT an absoloute. Ah well. Concepts there. |
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LostSoul3412
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 8167
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:08 am Post subject: Re: God's Pet Rock |
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Boater4000 wrote: An omnipotent deity, being omnipotent, decided to create an unmovable, unshiftable, non relocatable rock. He then, being omnipotent, decides to move it.
These statements are obviously contradicting each other, so, how does this occur? Is omnipotence a flawed concept? Any thoughts are appreciated.
This is like the "unstoppable force vs. immovable object" debate with God thrown into the mix, so I'll give the same answer for this that I did for that:
The universe explodes, which is proof this hasn't happened; and if it does, then we'll have bigger problems on our hands. |
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LostSoul3412
Joined: 11 Feb 2005
Posts: 8167
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: |
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Boater4000 wrote: Omniscience also has never made sense to me (another reason for this thread). Assuming the Christian Genesis story, God would have had to have known exactly what would have happened. When God determined the scale and effect of human emotions and reasoning, he would have to have seen the eating of the apple. But that's another point.
I believe you're talking about predestination, which has been developed by Calvinism as an answer to omniscience.
However, as far as omniscience goes, I believe that the extent of such is that God already knows every possible course of action, and all of the effects of such decision, thus setting a chain of motions into effect. However, we are still the ones who make the choices, thus, free will. God did, indeed, foresee Adam's curse as a possibility, however, He did not make Adam eat.
A better question would be to inquire as to why God placed the apple there at all... |
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Gilbert1908
Joined: 26 Jan 2005
Posts: 5197
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Sun Nov 12, 2006 5:13 am Post subject: |
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Boater4000 wrote: The Comrade wrote: Boater4000 wrote: If he can do anything, then can he overwrite a past ABSOLOUTE decision? If so, then that decision was not absoloute, as he can overwrite it. I'm not questioning that he can make a rock like this, merely if he can move it later and still be called "all powerful"
doesn't the ability to undue an absolute show something to be all powerful?
But that would make the first statement NOT an absoloute. Ah well. Concepts there.
The flaw in your hypothetical is that you assume that God would will to make ANYTHING not of His essence absolute or unchangeable. |
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