Political Crossfire Forums

Boater4000 · Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 10

I'm sure %50 of the people here have heard of this before, but I'd like to hear some fresh thoughts on it.

An omnipotent deity, being omnipotent, decided to create an unmovable, unshiftable, non relocatable rock. He then, being omnipotent, decides to move it.

These statements are obviously contradicting each other, so, how does this occur? Is omnipotence a flawed concept? Any thoughts are appreciated.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

a god can do anything it wants.

that's like saying god made man, but man dies. thus god is contradicting himself and omnipotence is flawed.

Boater4000 · Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 10

But god didn't say that man cannot be killed.

Babylon_Horuv · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 2087

to move the rock God would have to redefine it as movable.

Boater4000 · Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 10

But that would mean that the rock is movable. Sorry for the incredibly lame dictionary post, but it has a point
mov‧a‧ble /ˈmuvəbəl/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[moo-vuh-buhl] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–adjective
1. capable of being moved; not fixed in one place, position, or posture.

The rock is capable of being moved if he can change it, as there is no clause that says it is immovable to all but god.

To make my direct point, how can a deity contradict his own all powerful wishes?

Babylon_Horuv · Joined: 15 Jun 2006 Posts: 2087

well, an omniscient diety would know if he was ever going to wish to move the rock, and would thus not define it as immovable if he was ever going to wish it moved in the future.

Corona · Joined: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 155 Location: Sierra Vista, AZ

What the hell kind of God would make an immovable rock so he could move it later?

Boater4000 · Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 10

Omniscience also has never made sense to me (another reason for this thread). Assuming the Christian Genesis story, God would have had to have known exactly what would have happened. When God determined the scale and effect of human emotions and reasoning, he would have to have seen the eating of the apple. But that's another point.

I guess the two could be merged, but I'd like to hear thoughts focusing on omnipotence first.

ikari · Joined: 24 Sep 2004 Posts: 7198 Location: Colorado

That form of logic is only bound to our perception of the world. Gods operate outside of that, and are thus not beholden to such limitations.

The Comrade · Joined: 16 Jul 2006 Posts: 12039 Location: Zagreb

Boater4000 wrote: But god didn't say that man cannot be killed.

ummm adam and eve(Assuming we're going by christianity)were never intended to be killed.

curisz · Joined: 28 Jun 2004 Posts: 2112 Location: chicago

I interpret the concept of omnipotence differently. It does not necessarily mean that God can do anything. It means that God IS all the power (energy) that there is. In fact, omniscience and omnipresence work this way as well. God is all energy, all matter, all thought.

God is the very fundament of existence, but God is also the fundamental laws of existence. God cannot violate those laws any more than God can decide not to be God. When it seems those laws are being violated, I would suggest it is just that we don't know them very well.

Wizard From Oz · Joined: 18 Aug 2006 Posts: 11296 Location: Kansas

Quote: What the hell kind of God would make an immovable rock so he could move it later?

The one that built Australia :)

[/quote]

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Boater4000 wrote: I'm sure %50 of the people here have heard of this before, but I'd like to hear some fresh thoughts on it.

An omnipotent deity, being omnipotent, decided to create an unmovable, unshiftable, non relocatable rock. He then, being omnipotent, decides to move it.

These statements are obviously contradicting each other, so, how does this occur? Is omnipotence a flawed concept? Any thoughts are appreciated.

Instead of moving the rock, he moves the universe containing the rock, while the rock doesn't move.

Corona · Joined: 15 Oct 2006 Posts: 155 Location: Sierra Vista, AZ

toddytodd wrote: Boater4000 wrote: I'm sure %50 of the people here have heard of this before, but I'd like to hear some fresh thoughts on it.

An omnipotent deity, being omnipotent, decided to create an unmovable, unshiftable, non relocatable rock. He then, being omnipotent, decides to move it.

These statements are obviously contradicting each other, so, how does this occur? Is omnipotence a flawed concept? Any thoughts are appreciated.

Instead of moving the rock, he moves the universe containing the rock, while the rock doesn't move.

... If the universe the rock is in is moving, that means the rock is moving.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Corona wrote: toddytodd wrote: Boater4000 wrote: I'm sure %50 of the people here have heard of this before, but I'd like to hear some fresh thoughts on it.

An omnipotent deity, being omnipotent, decided to create an unmovable, unshiftable, non relocatable rock. He then, being omnipotent, decides to move it.

These statements are obviously contradicting each other, so, how does this occur? Is omnipotence a flawed concept? Any thoughts are appreciated.

Instead of moving the rock, he moves the universe containing the rock, while the rock doesn't move.

... If the universe the rock is in is moving, that means the rock is moving.

Not if you are a god (or the God). He/they could do whatever they wish, bend or break or make new physical laws at their whim.
That is what makes them a god (or the God).
That was the point.

Todd D. · Posted: Fri Nov 10, 2006 12:06 pm Post subject:

Can God make a two sided triangle? Can God make an all black ship that is red?

Just because you can say something doesn't mean that the tautology of the concept doesn't contradict the two being together.

mODULAR mAN · Joined: 13 Oct 2006 Posts: 852 Location: censored

Todd D. wrote: Can God make a two sided triangle? Can God make an all black ship that is red?

Just because you can say something doesn't mean that the tautology of the concept doesn't contradict the two being together.

This is right, it is logically meaningless.

Like calling God All-Just AND All-Forgiving. He can't be both.

toddytodd · Joined: 20 May 2006 Posts: 2736

Todd D. wrote: Can God make a two sided triangle? Can God make an all black ship that is red?

Just because you can say something doesn't mean that the tautology of the concept doesn't contradict the two being together.

If God is master of everything that is, he can do what he wants, change what he wants, redefine what he wants I suppose. If not, he isn't all-[everything] as is taught.

dtwizzy2k5 · Joined: 03 Apr 2006 Posts: 467

Either

a) God can't do things that are logically impossible, such as touching that plant without touching that plant.
or
b) Our understanding of logic and laws is very limited and God is outside/beyond these rules so you have to have faith that somehow he would be able to do these supposedly impossible tasks.

I dont know which supposition is true, but it is definetly one of them.

Boater4000 · Joined: 17 Sep 2006 Posts: 10

So... would most here say that the Christian god is not truly "omnipotent"? Because 99% of the time, I hear him described as that.
Replys to individual posts:
Toddytodd: But wouldn't that mean that if his laws were not absoloute, then he could not make an ABSOLOUTE LAW, making him not all powerful?
Todd D. The two actions are not directly contradictory, as they are not performed at the same time. It is possible to paint a ship black, and to paint it red, but it will not be fully black and red at the same time.